NYPD and possible work stoppage

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TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
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0
It won't last and things will go back to as they were. The animosity will remain but you get tickets and pot users locked up as usual, which is exactly what you are complaining about not being done. Think of all the pot dealers and users, which are overrepresented in the black community being arrested for victimless crimes. Then the police will be doing just what they aren't doing now, and of course that will be jackboots in action. Win/Win in some bizarre sense.


I'm complaining that they are being payed (the NYPD) to do nothing. If we didn't pay them, and they did nothing about pot, I would not give a fuck. They don't deserve money just for wearing a badge.

And yes I agree it will all go back to exactly how it was. This is a vacation for these cops. They can sit back and just relax, and wait. That's what I would do, were I a corrupt NYPD officer. They are too powerful to be toppled and the mayor isn't going anywhere.


This all bluster zero content. It's funny, the cops in some weird way did exactly what they should have, because the true cop haters here who just want them to go away have been appeased and now they can just wait for the rubber band of time to snap us all back to reality.

I don't want the cops to go away. I want them to
do their jobs. If that means arresting pot smokers that's NYs problem not mine. They shouldn't have voted for those BS laws. We both know that rule of law cannot just be suspended.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
You guys don't get it, this isn't going to last. The city is losing money and that is all the cops really care about. The moment this "protest" (and I hesitate to call it that considering the police aren't actually making demands, nor striking, they just aren't doing police work) threatens their cushy salaries and benefits they will strap on their jackboots and wreck shop on all you civilians.

It's great that the NYPD are such monumental pussies but I don't think this will last. DeBlasio and the NYPD both look like fools.

I feel like it's been explained to you in multiple threads that the revenue generated by the NYPD is insignificant to the NYC budget of $50 billion per year. Do you read what other people write, or is this a one way discussion for you?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
What class of parent can I blame for you being nuts? Jesus Christ on a crutch.

I find this whole thing disturbingly fascinating, if those words could be used together. On one hand we have complaints about the Mayor, who absolutely has the right to express opinions on public matters being retaliated against by police while on the other we have the police criticized not enforcing victimless crimes such as MJ, those kinds of things which are largely responsible for our vast prison population, who many see as a wrong.

I think both sides have points which are both good and some downright foolish, but it's more about who wins than what is happening to people in either scenario.

Seems to me that priorities and right and wrong itself shift depending on who's ox is being gored.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
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I feel like it's been explained to you in multiple threads that the revenue generated by the NYPD is insignificant to the NYC budget of $50 billion per year. Do you read what other people write, or is this a one way discussion for you?


I feel like you just don't understand how budgets work. Where do you think all the ticket money went? Did they just throw it out, and use the generous funds you claim they have from other sources? Did they not account for it?


The city accounts for and makes predictions based on revenue they earned in prior years. If that revenue disappears, what do they do?

Just because they have a larger source of income doesn't mean shit. They still love their money. If you have a $20 and a $5 in your wallet, do you throw out the $5 because "who cares, I have a 20!"? Are you tired or something? How can you not get this?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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I'm complaining that they are being payed (the NYPD) to do nothing. If we didn't pay them, and they did nothing about pot, I would not give a fuck. They don't deserve money just for wearing a badge.

You are stating an untruth. The issues are tickets and pot. That's what is not being enforced. You could at least read up before making statements which are false upon even cursory examination. If you were being held up there it nothing, Not One Thing, which suggests that the procedures would not be followed exactly as before. I know you hate police with a passion, and some police deserve all the scorn heaped upon them, but don't be a Birther, offering ridiculous statements which undermine legitimate concerns. The Birthers and their kin didn't win many points with those schemes except with those who already had their minds made up. At least read the bloody Atlantic article.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
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You are stating an untruth. The issues are tickets and pot. That's what is not being enforced. You could at least read up before making statements which are false upon even cursory examination. If you were being held up there it nothing, Not One Thing, which suggests that the procedures would not be followed exactly as before. I know you hate police with a passion, and some police deserve all the scorn heaped upon them, but don't be a Birther, offering ridiculous statements which undermine legitimate concerns. The Birthers and their kin didn't win many points with those schemes except with those who already had their minds made up. At least read the bloody Atlantic article.


Arrests are down across the board, how is that "only pot and tickets"? Are you suggesting that in the last few days since this whole situation developed crime in general is down 60%? You are arguing an absurdity!

NY has laws. The cops are there to enforce the law and they do not get to decide which laws they prefer to enforce. Are you getting this? Do I need to explain everything down to why laws are necessary for society or will you let go of your absurd BS argument that it is somehow OK for the cops to decide what laws the state of NY really has.?


Please. The rest of it doesn't even warrant a response.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
It may be a stupid argument but there are always consequences to absolutes. What politicians would repeal these laws? There aren't any, or perhaps it's more precisely stated as there aren't enough. Further, one believes that all laws should be enforced I can guarantee you are in violation of something. The number of laws and regulations which have no sunset provisions are incredible and they are breaking some rule. Maybe they have a horse too close to a church or something.

On the other hand we have massive disregard for MJ laws in CO which are not unconstitutional in any of the three branches opinions so Obama is effectively sanctioning violations of law on a massive scale. Make no mistake, I don't like current MJ laws but the FDA and the DEA answer to him and there is absolutely and unconditionally no need for Congressional involvement in rescheduling drugs, legal or otherwise. None whatsoever. If he did there is no question of violation of Constitutional authorities as the CSA explicitly allows for this. Legal changes which are proper and pass Constitutional muster. But that's not important if one just likes Obama doing "what the thinks is right", the same philosophy which led to CIA and NSA abuse by the former administration, while crying about parking tickets and making ridiculous claims about public safety.

In the end the "liberals" and "conservatives" as they call themselves aren't much different. It is just what topics they choose to be irrational about.

You realize that both Clinton and GWB failed to enforce the same federal marijuana law since 1996, I hope. If you really knew what you were talking about, you'd also realize that the protocols for executive removal of cannabis from schedule 1 classification are basically impossible to overcome. If aspirin were schedule 1 it'd likely stay there. Congress labors under no such constraints.

If you were being reasonable, you'd realize that what the NYPD wants is to maintain stop & frisk, to use choke holds & for their leadership to close ranks behind them whenever anything questionable occurs. They also want to keep using what really are chickenshit tactics wrt stop & frisk. Possession of small amounts of marijuana is a petty offense subject to a fine except if the miscreant displays it in public which is an arrestable offense. Using stop & frisk, officers demand that anybody for any reason empty their pockets & display the contents in public, escalate the offense against the intent of the law & the accused who intended no public display. It's abusive.

I have no doubt that stop & frisk has been a useful tool for street level enforcement wrt weapons, where public display isn't at issue. That doesn't mean that the NYPD should have ever been granted such powers, certainly not within the conceptual limits of professed conservative values.

If I don't want to be subject to stop & frisk, then I'm in opposition to what the NYPD wants.

If I don't want the police to be able to escalate criminality at will, I'm opposed to what the NYPD wants.

If I don't want officers to be excused for using dangerous choke holds in violation of dept policy, I'm opposed to what the NYPD wants.

If De Blasio expresses similar sentiment, then I'm with him.

It doesn't have anything to do with Obama, Unions or the welfare state other than for those who refuse to squarely face the issues.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
I feel like you just don't understand how budgets work. Where do you think all the ticket money went? Did they just throw it out, and use the generous funds you claim they have from other sources? Did they not account for it?


The city accounts for and makes predictions based on revenue they earned in prior years. If that revenue disappears, what do they do?

Just because they have a larger source of income doesn't mean shit. They still love their money. If you have a $20 and a $5 in your wallet, do you throw out the $5 because "who cares, I have a 20!"? Are you tired or something? How can you not get this?

I feel like you must be purposely dense. Since the NYPD revenue accounts for such a tiny portion of the city budget (it doesn't even begin to cover NYPD's own costs,) it does not present a great deal of pressure when it's temporarily cut off. Yes, it will mess with projections and money will have to be shuffled around from elsewhere, but it's not as if suddenly the city stopped receiving sales taxes, income taxes or property taxes. Does that make sense? The revenue generated by the NYPD is not significant in this situation as it isn't that important to the city of New York. If we were talking about a small town in a flyover state that generates 80% of it's operating budget from traffic enforcement, you'd have a point. As it is, you're making yourself look foolish.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Arrests are down across the board, how is that "only pot and tickets"? Are you suggesting that in the last few days since this whole situation developed crime in general is down 60%? You are arguing an absurdity!

NY has laws. The cops are there to enforce the law and they do not get to decide which laws they prefer to enforce. Are you getting this? Do I need to explain everything down to why laws are necessary for society or will you let go of your absurd BS argument that it is somehow OK for the cops to decide what laws the state of NY really has.?


Please. The rest of it doesn't even warrant a response.

I haven't seen evidence that people being harmed are being ignored, nor are things like robberies. If you have evidence to the contrary suggesting that the police are doing otherwise, and indeed aren't doing anything as you claim, then I'll gladly look into it.

Now let's follow your outrage further. The law of the land is that MJ is a federal crime. CO has been allowed by the DOJ and Obama to violate the Controlled Substance Act. It's his job as Executive to enforce federal law, and there is absolutely no suggestion on his or any other governmental branch that those laws are unconstitutional.

Do you want him impeached before or after the SOTU? Well if not impeached, then you certainly will go after him as much as you do the police since it's laws on which our society relies.

BTW, I think Obama needs to enforce the law and use his proper powers as given in the law to change how MJ is legally regarded and that the police should go about their traditional roles, which will include arresting a whole lot of black people. Not because they are black, but that's how it is.

Be careful what you ask for because you are likely to get it.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
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I haven't seen evidence that people being harmed are being ignored, nor are things like robberies. If you have evidence to the contrary suggesting that the police are doing otherwise, and indeed aren't doing anything as you claim, then I'll gladly look into it.



Now let's follow your outrage further. The law of the land is that MJ is a federal crime. CO has been allowed by the DOJ and Obama to violate the Controlled Substance Act. It's his job as Executive to enforce federal law, and there is absolutely no suggestion on his or any other governmental branch that those laws are unconstitutional.



Do you want him impeached before or after the SOTU? Well if not impeached, then you certainly will go after him as much as you do the police since it's laws on which our society relies.



BTW, I think Obama needs to enforce the law and use his proper powers as given in the law to change how MJ is legally regarded and that the police should go about their traditional roles, which will include arresting a whole lot of black people. Not because they are black, but that's how it is.



Be careful what you ask for because you are likely to get it.


Lol.


So now Obama authority = Cop authority?


I see where you get your love for authority. According to you, every beat cops authority is equal to that of the POTUS!


I wonder who the police chief is to you?


The pope?



Can we see your cop shrine? It's obvious you are the most extremely insane murderer-cop supporter on this forum.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
You realize that both Clinton and GWB failed to enforce the same federal marijuana law since 1996, I hope. If you really knew what you were talking about, you'd also realize that the protocols for executive removal of cannabis from schedule 1 classification are basically impossible to overcome. If aspirin were schedule 1 it'd likely stay there. Congress labors under no such constraints.

If you were being reasonable, you'd realize that what the NYPD wants is to maintain stop & frisk, to use choke holds & for their leadership to close ranks behind them whenever anything questionable occurs. They also want to keep using what really are chickenshit tactics wrt stop & frisk. Possession of small amounts of marijuana is a petty offense subject to a fine except if the miscreant displays it in public which is an arrestable offense. Using stop & frisk, officers demand that anybody for any reason empty their pockets & display the contents in public, escalate the offense against the intent of the law & the accused who intended no public display. It's abusive.

I have no doubt that stop & frisk has been a useful tool for street level enforcement wrt weapons, where public display isn't at issue. That doesn't mean that the NYPD should have ever been granted such powers, certainly not within the conceptual limits of professed conservative values.

If I don't want to be subject to stop & frisk, then I'm in opposition to what the NYPD wants.

If I don't want the police to be able to escalate criminality at will, I'm opposed to what the NYPD wants.

If I don't want officers to be excused for using dangerous choke holds in violation of dept policy, I'm opposed to what the NYPD wants.

If De Blasio expresses similar sentiment, then I'm with him.

It doesn't have anything to do with Obama, Unions or the welfare state other than for those who refuse to squarely face the issues.

Regarding the latter, the grounds for opposition aren't well founded on law, but what laws and who is disregarding them. Obama is as guilty as the police, and of officers are to be held to a higher standard than the highest officer in the nation then that's wrong.

As far as what the NYPD do I'm against much of it AND the politicians who authorized much of it.

Regarding Obama and MJ, that's pretty much my argument. Bush/Clinton did not allow wholesale consumption by the general public, but for medical use. They could have changed the schedule from a class I but did not. They should have, especially in light of evidence of beneficial uses for MJ.

The public are being sheep willingly led, no, insisting on being driven to irrational action and understanding so they can have their shearers clip them naked.

So no, I do not accept that one thing has nothing to do with the other. I say that they are an indication of a diseased public who encourages the rule of law when it suits them and excuses those in power of similar abuses. This is our collective failure in not holding government, that is to say the politicians and the "hired hands", uniformly accountable at all levels.

We would not stand for it if that happened.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Haha, say something dumb, get called out on it, then fly into a rage.

Even the person you trotted out as an example of why de Blasio is wrong thinks de Blasio is right.

I'm sure DeBlasio is right the same way David Dinkins was and will probably be run out of town the same way.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
0
I feel like you must be purposely dense. Since the NYPD revenue accounts for such a tiny portion of the city budget (it doesn't even begin to cover NYPD's own costs,) it does not present a great deal of pressure when it's temporarily cut off. Yes, it will mess with projections and money will have to be shuffled around from elsewhere, but it's not as if suddenly the city stopped receiving sales taxes, income taxes or property taxes. Does that make sense? The revenue generated by the NYPD is not significant in this situation as it isn't that important to the city of New York. If we were talking about a small town in a flyover state that generates 80% of it's operating budget from traffic enforcement, you'd have a point. As it is, you're making yourself look foolish.

Could you back that up with some kind of data? I can't find anything on NYPD income vs city income.



Citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent, from 10,069 to 587, during that time frame.

Summonses for low-level offenses like public drinking and urination also plunged 94 percent — from 4,831 to 300.

Even parking violations are way down, dropping by 92 percent, from 14,699 to 1,241.

Drug arrests by cops assigned to the NYPD’s Organized Crime Control Bureau — which are part of the overall number — dropped by 84 percent, from 382 to 63.


Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/ny...job-york-collapsed-chaos/#XprieG5jYCcs5pOr.99

SIDE NOTE - this quote is a reminder to HyabusaRider and others that claim that "only" tickets and pot are down. Drug arrests down 84 percent?



So I guess crack is legal now too, right Hyabusa?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Lol.


So now Obama authority = Cop authority?


I see where you get your love for authority. According to you, every beat cops authority is equal to that of the POTUS!


I wonder who the police chief is to you?


The pope?



Can we see your cop shrine? It's obvious you are the most extremely insane murderer-cop supporter on this forum.

I had a great disagreement with Eskimospy and we found an understanding of each other's position. I found you to be less than worthy of consideration.

Now I'm not angry with you. No, indeed I feel pity for a tortured soul obviously corrupted by hate. Since I have never advocated- not once- for the police murdering, you will be dismissed not by me, but by everyone. As far as Obama goes, no, he is the individual within government who by virtue of office who is most obliged to do his duty. He commands more power than any other individual in government and if he cannot lead by example, or he is forgiven by the likes of you then the "peons", like you apparently regard everyone else have no real higher standard to regard.

While you have my sympathy due to your instability, that does not mean I find you benign. Indeed I find people like you to be among the most cancerous of societal problems. You are Ahab, and the police are Moby Dick. Don't mind me. Let Ahab beware Ahab.
 
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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Could you back that up with some kind of data? I can't find anything on NYPD income vs city income.

?

Pretty simple really. Last year they gave out a total of 25,000 traffic and parking tickets. Assuming $200/ticket, that comes to $5 million revenue generated by the police department.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Could you back that up with some kind of data? I can't find anything on NYPD income vs city income.





SIDE NOTE - this quote is a reminder to HyabusaRider and others that claim that "only" tickets and pot are down. Drug arrests down 84 percent?



So I guess crack is legal now too, right Hyabusa?

I made the error of the assumption as you being merely angry and spiteful, but stupid. Well if it makes you feel better then let's say that if some bum pees on the sidewalk that's not going to get him arrested. The majority of drug crimes are MJ related unless you think crack is more commonly used in NYC than pot. I'll amend my statement to "low level non violent crimes", of course tickets and MJ have been the most discussed. Apparently they aren't busting the homeless like they might have and that offends you. Psst, I already said I think the police should return to traditional enforcement, so that kind of shoots any argument you could make about my wanting them to continue moot. But don't let that stand in your way.

Egads the internet is full of crazy people.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
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Yes who would be crazy enough to disagree with a man who accounts the same authority for the NYPD as the president of the US. I wonder if you would say the same if we had a whiter, bushier president?


Egads indeed.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
0
Pretty simple really. Last year they gave out a total of 25,000 traffic and parking tickets. Assuming $200/ticket, that comes to $5 million revenue generated by the police department.

How many tickets were for other citations? How many for fees associated with court arrests? How many for services, like defense attorneys provided by the courts.



Conveniently, none of that is taken into account in either Nebors, yours, or Hyabusa's estimates.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
136
I'm sure DeBlasio is right the same way David Dinkins was and will probably be run out of town the same way.

I'm quite certain that regardless of what happens your prediction now is in no way based in evidence and is simply your spite based wish so that people you disagree with politically will be unhappy.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Pretty simple really. Last year they gave out a total of 25,000 traffic and parking tickets. Assuming $200/ticket, that comes to $5 million revenue generated by the police department.

They're giving out a lot more tickets than that. But considering that the NYPD's FY'13 budget was $4.6 billion dollars, I think even Trevader can see that they're not writing enough tickets to make even the tiniest dent in their own costs, much less contributing to the city's coffers.

Edit: I stand corrected on the number of citations
10,067 traffic citations and 4,832 low-level summonses in 2013.
 
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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
How many tickets were for other citations? How many for fees associated with court arrests? How many for services, like defense attorneys provided by the courts.



Conveniently, none of that is taken into account in either Nebors, yours, or Hyabusa's estimates.

Well parking and traffic tickets were a grand total of $5M/$75,000M or 0.007% of the city's budget. That is an insignificant number in my opinion.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
They're giving out a lot more tickets than that. But considering that the NYPD's FY'13 budget was $4.6 billion dollars, I think even Trevader can see that they're not writing enough tickets to make even the tiniest dent in their own costs, much less contributing to the city's coffers.

No they are not, I looked it up. You can as well. It is public information.
 

TreVader

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2013
2,057
2
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Well parking and traffic tickets were a grand total of $5M/$75,000M or 0.007% of the city's budget. That is an insignificant number in my opinion.

The NYPDs budget is only like 4B$


Nobody seems to be able to provide me with any concrete evidence supporting Hyabusa and Nebors supposition that tickets and citations and court cases have zero effect on the budget
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Heh. So what does the Union want, anyway? Are they currently negotiating a contract or dealing with a disciplinary matter? What's their list of demands?

Seems to me is that either the union or the NYPD are trying to make a political statement.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
136
Eski,

You live in New York right on the front lines. How has the slowdown impacted you? Can you even tell the slowdown is happening? C'mon brother, dish for us.

I haven't noticed anything, but I don't drive a car and I don't get arrested for drugs, haha. Also, my neighborhood is pretty low crime so we don't see police often anyways.

For the city overall I haven't noticed much change either, although obviously I don't see that much of it on any given day. To me this is pretty insightful though, as if not policing these crimes doesn't change things, then why are we policing them to begin with?