nVidia HQ AF problems again

[Pantalaimon]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but these findings aren't about shimmering, but about how the drivers still keep the optimization settings even though a high quality option was chosen, which according to nVidia is not supposed to happen. Because of this bug the benchmarks at high quality settings have been higher than what it should be in OpenGL for nVidia's cards. So, this then means that nVidia's supposed superiority in OPenGL games vs. ATI is now in question because of this bug.

 

[crazydingo]

Originally posted by: Pantalaimon
Maybe I'm mistaken, but these findings aren't about shimmering, but about how the drivers still keep the optimization settings even though a high quality option was chosen, which according to nVidia is not supposed to happen. Because of this bug the benchmarks at high quality settings have been higher than what it should be in OpenGL for nVidia's cards. So, this then means that nVidia's supposed superiority in OPenGL games vs. ATI is now in question because of this bug.

Thank you for getting it back on topic.

 

[ronnn]

Old news. The few who can see it have been writing about it since the release of the 7800 series. Luckily most don't notice and quite enjoy their nv cards. Is funny that as soon as they lose the speed crown, everything else becomes free game. I guess after over a year of steady anti-ati spam, Nvidia now gets a turn.

 

[schtuga]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
This has nothing to do with ATi but its funny seeing the usual suspects trying to deflect the issue at hand.

It's equally funny seeing the usual suspects doing all the slinging

What is even funnier is that the people making the biggest deal about it are people that most likely wouldn't buy nvidia regardless.

It certainly hasn't been a big enough problem to hurt sales. If it has,Maybe this is a blessing in disguise for ATI.If Nvidia was not only managed better but also had better IQ, ATI stocks might be lower than the $15 they are at right now.

As for the topic at hand,I own cards from both companies,but have yet to notice it.Maybe I don't play the games where it is the worst.Or maybe I am enjoying the game so much,that I haven't seen it.

Now that we know about these optimizations,does it mean people will start having less fun when they play ogl games with an nvidia card?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: ronnn
Old news. The few who can see it have been writing about it since the release of the 7800 series. Luckily most don't notice and quite enjoy their nv cards. Is funny that as soon as they lose the speed crown, everything else becomes free game. I guess after over a year of steady anti-ati spam, Nvidia now gets a turn.

Yup. It pretty much a very slow game of pong. When the 6 series and X8xx series were top dogs, ATI fans criticized the "useless" feature set on the 6 series cards and Nvidia fans touted them. Now, ATI fans tout HDR+AA and superior AF and other features not found on the 6 or 7 series. It's too bad none of them can resist the flip flop.

 

[crazydingo]

Like earlier beating around the bush ... 😀

It looks like most have not even read the link in the first post:

http://www.upitfree.com/image/354.jpeg

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
This is more than about shimmering with nVidia. The entire point of that article is that you STILL have shimmering in HQ AF in OpenGL because opts are not turned off. Once they are turned off manually, you get a performance penalty. This has nothing to do with ATi but its funny seeing the usual suspects trying to deflect the issue at hand.

Yeah it is. Some can't stand their cards being debunked. Personally, I want to know about the issues my G7x-based 7800GT has. But I guess some don't.

 

[FalllenAngell]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: ronnn
Old news. The few who can see it have been writing about it since the release of the 7800 series. Luckily most don't notice and quite enjoy their nv cards. Is funny that as soon as they lose the speed crown, everything else becomes free game. I guess after over a year of steady anti-ati spam, Nvidia now gets a turn.

Yup. It pretty much a very slow game of pong. When the 6 series and X8xx series were top dogs, ATI fans criticized the "useless" feature set on the 6 series cards and Nvidia fans touted them. Now, ATI fans tout HDR+AA and superior AF and other features not found on the 6 or 7 series. It's too bad none of them can resist the flip flop.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: crazydingo
Like earlier beating around the bush ... 😀

It looks like most have not even read the link in the first post:

http://www.upitfree.com/image/354.jpeg

Isn't that what optimizations are for? Improving performance? What do you think happens when ATI or Nvidia releases new drivers and suddenly there is more performance? Of course disabling optimizations will decrease performance. That is why they are called optimizations, is it not? To optimize performance. Now if this thread is not about shimmering due to AF optimizations, then what is it about?

For a quick example, people complain about ATI AA not being performed on the entire scene and that it is distance limited, hence the lower performance hit. Now I have no idea if this is true or not, but "somebody" complained about it for it to even make it into a discussion. There were a few threads here about it. One person switched from a 7800GTX to a X1900XT and noticed this phenomenon. Posted screenies and everybody tried to help him get rid of the problem. Don't you think that this would be an ATI driver optimization to "NOT" apply AA to the entire scene?

 

[crazydingo]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: crazydingo
Like earlier beating around the bush ... 😀

It looks like most have not even read the link in the first post:

http://www.upitfree.com/image/354.jpeg

Isn't that what optimizations are for? Improving performance? What do you think happens when ATI or Nvidia releases new drivers and suddenly there is more performance? Of course disabling optimizations will decrease performance. That is why they are called optimizations, is it not? To optimize performance. Now if this thread is not about shimmering due to AF optimizations, then what is it about?

Sometimes it helps if you read:

Originally posted by: Pantalaimon

Maybe I'm mistaken, but these findings aren't about shimmering, but about how the drivers still keep the optimization settings even though a high quality option was chosen, which according to nVidia is not supposed to happen. Because of this bug the benchmarks at high quality settings have been higher than what it should be in OpenGL for nVidia's cards. So, this then means that nVidia's supposed superiority in OPenGL games vs. ATI is now in question because of this bug.

 

[fierydemise]

Keys the issue is simple, nVidia claimed that when HQ option was chosen all optimizations were turned off, but the article shows that isn't true.

 

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: crazydingo
Like earlier beating around the bush ... 😀

It looks like most have not even read the link in the first post:

http://www.upitfree.com/image/354.jpeg

after seeing those benchmarks, i decided to try them for myself with my 7800gt. i only have SS2 of those three games benchmarked. i downloaded Serious Sam benchmark you can bench both Open GL and Direct 3D. i used Rivatuner to disable all optimizations with HQ enable. i ran each benchmark(Branchester) twice under each setting, i used the highest score of the two benchmarks.

here's my setup:
s754 3700+ newark@2.7ghz
DFI NF4x infinty
7800gt (460/1200) 4aa/8af
512x2 Corsair XMS 2-3-3-10 @225mhz

HQ/direct3D optimizations on= 62 fps
HQ/direct3D optimizations off= 62 fps, no difference

HQ/openGL optimizations on= 82 fps
HQ/openGL optimizations off= 114 fps, BIG difference

edit: i mixed up the results with HQ/openGL, it should read as,
HQ/openGL optimizations on= 114 fps
HQ/openGL optimizations off= 82 fps, BIG difference
also the resolution used is 1280x1024

 

[crazydingo]

^ I think you got the numbers the other way around. 😉

Did you disable opt through this method?

1. disable the individual optimisations separately(AF opt.,trilinear opt.,mipfilter opt.)
2. set to HQ
3. choose AF level
4. enable LOD Clamp

First real contribution to the thread, thanks. :thumbsup:

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: crazydingo

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: crazydingo
Like earlier beating around the bush ... 😀

It looks like most have not even read the link in the first post:

http://www.upitfree.com/image/354.jpeg

Isn't that what optimizations are for? Improving performance? What do you think happens when ATI or Nvidia releases new drivers and suddenly there is more performance? Of course disabling optimizations will decrease performance. That is why they are called optimizations, is it not? To optimize performance. Now if this thread is not about shimmering due to AF optimizations, then what is it about?

Sometimes it helps if you read:

Originally posted by: Pantalaimon

Maybe I'm mistaken, but these findings aren't about shimmering, but about how the drivers still keep the optimization settings even though a high quality option was chosen, which according to nVidia is not supposed to happen. Because of this bug the benchmarks at high quality settings have been higher than what it should be in OpenGL for nVidia's cards. So, this then means that nVidia's supposed superiority in OPenGL games vs. ATI is now in question because of this bug.

And the only reason to disable these optimizations would be to...........? 😉

 

[CKXP]

Originally posted by: crazydingo
^ I think you got the numbers the other way around. 😉

Did you disable opt through this method?

1. disable the individual optimisations separately(AF opt.,trilinear opt.,mipfilter opt.)
2. set to HQ
3. choose AF level
4. enable LOD Clamp

First real contribution to the thread, thanks. :thumbsup:

yeah, i had the results mixed up😱.....with Rivatuner i had the option in Direct3D tweaks, under the intellisample tab to diasble AF opt.,trilinear opt.,mipfilter opt, same with OpenGL, while still set to HQ

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Keys the issue is simple, nVidia claimed that when HQ option was chosen all optimizations were turned off, but the article shows that isn't true.

And why do we care about this?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Is there a IQ difference apart from less shimmering.

I dont even see why shimmering is a big problem when many dont even know what shimmering is and dont notice any shimmering effect when playing a game.

Mind you, i wont be playing a game looking down on the ground for the rest of the game or searching for shimmering.

 

[fierydemise]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Keys the issue is simple, nVidia claimed that when HQ option was chosen all optimizations were turned off, but the article shows that isn't true.

And why do we care about this?

The optimizations decrease IQ

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: fierydemise

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Keys the issue is simple, nVidia claimed that when HQ option was chosen all optimizations were turned off, but the article shows that isn't true.

And why do we care about this?

The optimizations decrease IQ

In what way?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Arent optimizations usually speeding the process up for faster performance while the IQ stays the same?

 

[xtknight]

Raising the LOD by clamping or just setting it higher will decrease shimmering but it will also decrease level of detail in the texture.

 

[Steelski]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Keys the issue is simple, nVidia claimed that when HQ option was chosen all optimizations were turned off, but the article shows that isn't true.

And why do we care about this?

we care because it would be something to think about when buying an nvidia product. the constant lying about optimizations not affecting image quality...... now even lying about the implementation of optimisation. I personally dont own an Nvidia card at the moment, but i know this issue annoys me when i dont have AF on. it would certainly annoy me more if i was to have it on and it would not get rid of crap like this in the pictures.
I know there are a lot of people that wouldent know the difference between a AF scene and a none AF scene. If you dont find image quality an issue then you shouldent comment on any image quality threads. Infact i will make an effort to remember that you dont really care about these kinds of issues.
I was concerned about the ATI mip mapping issue (resolved) and the HL2 black watter edges(fixed) and you refered to.
The AA issue............. why the hell are you concerned... you have no valid statement to make even to that if you cant acknowledge this.
Keys, you have no leg to stand on with this issue, why are you trying to deffend Nvidia when there is evidence they are lying yet again about their optimization issues. why can they not really give a HQ mode when it is available?

 

[FalllenAngell]

Originally posted by: crazydingo

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: crazydingo
Like earlier beating around the bush ... 😀

It looks like most have not even read the link in the first post:

http://www.upitfree.com/image/354.jpeg

Isn't that what optimizations are for? Improving performance? What do you think happens when ATI or Nvidia releases new drivers and suddenly there is more performance? Of course disabling optimizations will decrease performance. That is why they are called optimizations, is it not? To optimize performance. Now if this thread is not about shimmering due to AF optimizations, then what is it about?

Sometimes it helps if you read:

Originally posted by: Pantalaimon

Maybe I'm mistaken, but these findings aren't about shimmering, but about how the drivers still keep the optimization settings even though a high quality option was chosen, which according to nVidia is not supposed to happen. Because of this bug the benchmarks at high quality settings have been higher than what it should be in OpenGL for nVidia's cards. So, this then means that nVidia's supposed superiority in OPenGL games vs. ATI is now in question because of this bug.

I don't know, seems like "much ado about nothing" or close to it to me. Very few websites use high quality for benchmarking, and you can enable the same level of AF by clicking the boxes manually.

So the end users get the functionality, and the reviews for the most part weren't skewed.

Reminds me of a few years back my buddies were harassing me because the trilinear filtering on my ATI card of the time was supposed to be some sort of driver cheat ....and I couldn't disable it! <gasp>

("inclination to bugwellen" notwithstanding)

 

[Steelski]

Originally posted by: FalllenAngell
Reminds me of a few years back my buddies were harassing me because the trilinear filtering on my ATI card of the time was supposed to be some sort of driver cheat ....and I couldn't disable it! <gasp>

("inclination to bugwellen" notwithstanding)

I used to harass a friend because he had a wireless network..... it was very unstable at the time and i kept saying that it would fry his brain.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
This is more than about shimmering with nVidia. The entire point of that article is that you STILL have shimmering in HQ AF in OpenGL because opts are not turned off. Once they are turned off manually, you get a performance penalty. This has nothing to do with ATi but its funny seeing the usual suspects trying to deflect the issue at hand.

You will get some level of shimmering regardless of whether the optimizations are on or off. If you are upset about that, remember nVIDIA has publically stated they were forced to optimize their AF routines because nobody cared about their previous AF quality, only about the performance of ATI's vastly inferior AF. It was ATi, not nVIDIA who first optimized AF...

At this point I have not bothered to read the article and won't until 3dcenter release an english translation of it.

I personally feel this is a settings/profile bug myself. I've noticed that most of the 80 series drivers default profile lists can't be read properly by nHancer V1.22. This doesn't concern me as I use my own custom nvapps.xml anyhow.

I do wonder if the article mentioned the forceware driver versions it tested. I would be extremely suprised if 83.xx and beyond were included, since the IQ in these drivers absolutely first rate. I'd also guess that 79.11 wouldn't be included.

EDIT: about the performance penalty for disabling optimizations - that has always been the case and I fail to see why people would be suprised by this - the GPU is doing more work - of course the performance will drop...