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nVidia HQ AF problems again

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Originally posted by: crazydingo
Originally posted by: beggerking
According to the thread about Ati image problem with purple dots , the solution is and has always been "wait for the next driver update"
Click to expand...
Like always derailing threads. beggar, whats new?
Click to expand...

In what part did I derail the thread? both are image problems and both have the same solution. (wait for next driver update)

IMHO, this thread is derailed from the start. Rather than Joker posting a solution to this "known" problem, he is posting the same problem again just to crap NV.
 
Originally posted by: beggerking
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Originally posted by: FalllenAngell
Originally posted by: Ackmed

And yes he did put words in my mouth. "You act like everything is rendered purple and they don't want to admit it! " I didnt act or say anything like that. Some NV fans just dont like to hear the truth, that NV is behind in the IQ dept, and that shimmering is a problem to some people.
Click to expand...

Wow, you guys really go at it about the video cards.

I was just trying to say that it seems to me you're making a bigger deal out of this than it is. (like when my buddies tried to tell me my X800s AF was some sort of big driver cheat)

What's weird to me is that for something that's such a big deal to some of you isn't the focal point of every review on the web. I've barely seen it mentioned at all. 😕
Click to expand...


Welcome back Rollo. 😉

Its hilarious how the nVidia defenders have nothing to refute the evidence provided by 3D Center or other users yet decide to attack other 7800 owners like Ackmed that have a problem with shimmering. While you zealots may want Ackmed and others to "****** off from nVidia" I doubt nVidia wants its customers defecting to ATi because it has subpar AF. Anyhow, to repeat for the umpteenth time, this issue is about the fact that HQ AF is supposed to disable all opts (still angle dependent) in OpenGL but that does not occur; the user has to manually turn them off and when they do, they get a performance penalty as a result. What this could mean is that all OpenGL benchmarks out there utilizing HQ AF for nVidia cards could be exaggerated and may need to be revisited.
Click to expand...

Here we go again! similar to this thread

Joker's AEG witch hunting begins again on innocent members.

What is wrong with "defending nvidia" ? Does it automatically mark people as proNvidia or AEG ? you are way out of control lately, Joker.

How much shimmering there is, is subjective. It is a well known bug and with the 80s driver its not that bad anymore.
since the amount of shimmering is subjective, his reason / evidence to refute is based on his experience with the card, and therefore it is valid.
I don't see you yourself using a 7800, so you have no evidence of shimmering ( at least with the newest driver), so you are basing your entire conclusion on a reviewer's view of shimmmering, which is in term " subjective" over "subjective"... umm . it looks like you are the one who has nothing to retute / stand on in blindly believing a reviews subjective view on a subjective problem. ..
Click to expand...


Boogertroll, read>comprehend>post. It's been stated quite clearly what this thread is about.

 
Originally posted by: CaiNaM
Originally posted by: crazydingo
People who dont notice shimmering; good for you! dont click on this thread and related topics.

People who notice shimmering; participate and hope it gets fixed.

Honestly if you are in former group, why do you have a problem. Its not a problem to you, good for you. Enjoy. Why do you have a problem with others wanting it to be fixed. 😕
Click to expand...

lol.. now THAT's a solution! only ppl who can slam nv are invited to read this thread 😉

By the way CD, do you own one of these cards and are you being effected/bothered by it?

but back to the topic, can someone who is experiencing this tell me if manually turning these "opts" off noticeably increase image quality?
Click to expand...


Read the article, they post pictures highlighting the difference between opts on and off. Secondly this problem has been persistent throughout a huge span of nVidia's drivers, according to the article: "and this for quite some time (tested with most important drivers from 66.72 to 83.40". Optmizations not shutting off in HQ AF mode for OGL means that all HQ AF OGL benchmarks done for nVidia cards have been exaggerated. I guess I need to repeat this about 10x before it gets into the thick skulls of some nVidia fans.

Edit: Another pic showing the quality difference between opts on and off: http://www.skenegroup.net/tertsi/doom3/hqnoopt_vs_hqopt.html
 
Originally posted by: crazydingo

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
shimmering is not even what this thread is about...
Click to expand...
Agree but apparently keysplyr2003 thinks shimmering is the only thing this thread about.
Click to expand...

Actually Dingo, I will quote myself here because you can't remember as far as ten posts back what was said.

Quote:"But didn't you try to point out that this thread was not about shimmering? And even went as far to say that I should "read" the thread and quote and bold someones statements?
I truly wish you all would make up your minds and actually know what the point is that you're trying to convey. One guy says its not about shimmering, but about optimizations not being turned off when HQ is set. Another guy says, If you don't notice shimmering, don't click on this thread (inside the thread :roll: ) but if you do, you are welcome. "

I asked what this thread was about if it was not about shimmering.
When HQ is applied, optimizations are NOT turned off AND RESULTS WITH WHAT????
Reduced image quality in the form of?????? Shimmering for one thing?

I looked at Jokers mouseover screenshot and did notice some aliasing going on with optimizations on, but only in certain portions of the screen. Again, this is something blown way out of proportion. The floor grating after a certain distance seemed aliased or not filtered properly with opts on. And the corner of the wall where the guy is standing on the catwalk is aliased more. I think settings need to be checked again. Thats all.
 
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: crazydingo

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
shimmering is not even what this thread is about...
Click to expand...
Agree but apparently keysplyr2003 thinks shimmering is the only thing this thread about.
Click to expand...

Actually Dingo, I will quote myself here because you can't remember as far as ten posts back what was said.

Quote:"But didn't you try to point out that this thread was not about shimmering? And even went as far to say that I should "read" the thread and quote and bold someones statements?
I truly wish you all would make up your minds and actually know what the point is that you're trying to convey. One guy says its not about shimmering, but about optimizations not being turned off when HQ is set. Another guy says, If you don't notice shimmering, don't click on this thread (inside the thread :roll: ) but if you do, you are welcome. "

I asked what this thread was about if it was not about shimmering.
When HQ is applied, optimizations are NOT turned off AND RESULTS WITH WHAT????
Reduced image quality in the form of?????? Shimmering for one thing?

I looked at Jokers mouseover screenshot and did notice some aliasing going on with optimizations on, but only in certain portions of the screen. Again, this is something blown way out of proportion. The floor grating after a certain distance seemed aliased or not filtered properly with opts on. And the corner of the wall where the guy is standing on the catwalk is aliased more. I think settings need to be checked again. Thats all.
Click to expand...



Having the opts still enabled when HQ AF is turned on results in:

1. Shimmering.
2. Reduced image quality (aliasing).
3. Falsely increased performance.

Disabling the opts manually results in:

1. Increased image quality.
2. Decrease in performance.


So yes shimmering is a side effect of these opts not shutting off with HQ AF in OpenGL. We can't say it's a specific driver set either because as the website noted, this has spanned across multiple driver revisions over a very long period of time and as a result, all HQ AF OpenGL benchmarks done are invalid. Did that clear things up?
 
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: crazydingo
People who dont notice shimmering; good for you! dont click on this thread and related topics.

People who notice shimmering; participate and hope it gets fixed.

Honestly if you are in former group, why do you have a problem. Its not a problem to you, good for you. Enjoy. Why do you have a problem with others wanting it to be fixed. 😕
Click to expand...

But didn't you try to point out that this thread was not about shimmering? And even went as far to say that I should "read" the thread and quote and bold someones statements?
I truly wish you all would make up your minds and actually know what the point is that you're trying to convey. One guy says its not about shimmering, but about optimizations not being turned off when HQ is set. Another guy says, If you don't notice shimmering, don't click on this thread (inside the thread :roll: ) but if you do, you are welcome.
Click to expand...
Joker:
Boogertroll, read>comprehend>post. It's been stated quite clearly what this thread is about.
Click to expand...
JokerTroll, care to explain what this thread is about? or are you just going to reply with pure trolling statement as without providing an answer to the question? again..
 
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: crazydingo

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
shimmering is not even what this thread is about...
Click to expand...
Agree but apparently keysplyr2003 thinks shimmering is the only thing this thread about.
Click to expand...

Actually Dingo, I will quote myself here because you can't remember as far as ten posts back what was said.

Quote:"But didn't you try to point out that this thread was not about shimmering? And even went as far to say that I should "read" the thread and quote and bold someones statements?
I truly wish you all would make up your minds and actually know what the point is that you're trying to convey. One guy says its not about shimmering, but about optimizations not being turned off when HQ is set. Another guy says, If you don't notice shimmering, don't click on this thread (inside the thread :roll: ) but if you do, you are welcome. "

I asked what this thread was about if it was not about shimmering.
When HQ is applied, optimizations are NOT turned off AND RESULTS WITH WHAT????
Reduced image quality in the form of?????? Shimmering for one thing?

I looked at Jokers mouseover screenshot and did notice some aliasing going on with optimizations on, but only in certain portions of the screen. Again, this is something blown way out of proportion. The floor grating after a certain distance seemed aliased or not filtered properly with opts on. And the corner of the wall where the guy is standing on the catwalk is aliased more. I think settings need to be checked again. Thats all.
Click to expand...



Having the opts still enabled when HQ AF is turned on results in:

1. Shimmering.
2. Reduced image quality (aliasing).
3. Falsely increased performance.

Disabling the opts manually results in:

1. Increased image quality.
2. Decrease in performance.


So yes shimmering is a side effect of these opts not shutting off with HQ AF in OpenGL. We can't say it's a specific driver set either because as the website noted, this has spanned across multiple driver revisions over a very long period of time and as a result, all HQ AF OpenGL benchmarks done are invalid. Did that clear things up?
Click to expand...

wow, aweful.. but not as bad as purple dots on ATI cards IMO. Care to explain what happened here with the ATI card? I don't see you making a big deal out of that..😕
 
Originally posted by: AckmedIt sure seems to be a pretty widespread concern judging by how many people are bothered by it in this topic alone. You dont have to be a fanboy, or an IQ cultist to be bothered by it. But nice sladering generalization.

Sure there are times when I dont notice it, like as you said, when lots of action is on the screen. A LOT of the time in BF2 on certain maps, is walking, or driving a long distance. At that time, its very easy to see, and annoying.
Click to expand...

If the satisfied customers came here and posted alongside unsatisfied & ATI fans you'd find the complaints drowned out. This board has a very slanted view on Proccessors (maybe rightly so) and it's leaning more towards ATI every day. Oh and if you want slander, look up joker for the last 2 months.

Right now I run SLI 7800GT's in 1 rig & now Crossfire X1800XT's in another rig and I have to say while the ATI looks better when standing still, when moving it has no benefits over the GT's except more frames thsat aren't being processed by my eyes & brain. The opts make no difference to the gameplay for me, perhaps they might with 1 card.
 
Originally posted by: beggerking
IMO. Care to explain what happened here with the ATI card? I don't see you making a big deal out of that..😕
Click to expand...
Since 3DMock isn't a compelling game title, the worst case senario is that it artifically inflates the score. If so, I'll be sure to add my condemnation of the "lucky by-product" of a driver bug 😉 Besides that possibility, I see no reason why anyone would give a shat about a synthetic benchmark having an IQ issue. I don't even watch the bench run once I've seen it, unless evaluating an overclock and checking for artifacting.

The shimmering in games we all pay for is much more relevant to me as a consumer. Only competitive benchmarkers, reviewers and such that can make proper use of the tools, and some others <---whom I simply can't relate to, buy Futuremock products.
 
Originally posted by: CP5670
I thought the FX cards, for all their flaws, had perfect AF?
Click to expand...

It had very good AF but the performance hit was massive. The R300 was angle dependent and only applied full AF at angles of 90, 45, 22.5, and 0 degrees.

Back then performance in AF was king according to some people. Now quality is supposedly king today. They created their own mess by proclaiming ATI's optimizations king over Nvidia's quality.
 
Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Read the article, they post pictures highlighting the difference between opts on and off. Secondly this problem has been persistent throughout a huge span of nVidia's drivers, according to the article: "and this for quite some time (tested with most important drivers from 66.72 to 83.40". Optmizations not shutting off in HQ AF mode for OGL means that all HQ AF OGL benchmarks done for nVidia cards have been exaggerated. I guess I need to repeat this about 10x before it gets into the thick skulls of some nVidia fans.

Edit: Another pic showing the quality difference between opts on and off: http://www.skenegroup.net/tertsi/doom3/hqnoopt_vs_hqopt.html
Click to expand...
Flippin heck, I thought there was gonna be a serious difference in quality. The grills on the floor are the tiniest bit different, nothing to warrent a massive outcry.

BUT...

If NV have stated that high quality disables all optimizations then that's what it should do. I can't imagine that such a tiny optimization can give much of speed boost though.
 
run away with the thread, no one cares.

btw UT2004 gravel texture is shimmer bane, you want to throw any texture optimization out in the open, use that.
 
If NV have stated that high quality disables all optimizations then that's what it should do
Click to expand...
See, this is what I thought what this issue is about, but instead people talk about whether the IQ and shimmering is noticeable or not. It doesn't matter whether it's noticeable or not. It's about having optimizations enabled when the vendor says it shouldn't be at these settings. So, now all those benchmarks that the vendor's card won is put in question because people wonder if they won because of those optimizations.
 
Originally posted by: CP5670
I thought the FX cards, for all their flaws, had perfect AF?
Click to expand...

NO, they used a combination of trilinear and bilinear filtering when full trilinear was suposed to be used. AFAIK, full trilinear was supposedly enabled in the highest quality mode, but it was later found that the driver forces "brilinear" filtering even when you disabled all the optimizations.
 
Originally posted by: munky
Originally posted by: CP5670
I thought the FX cards, for all their flaws, had perfect AF?
Click to expand...

NO, they used a combination of trilinear and bilinear filtering when full trilinear was suposed to be used. AFAIK, full trilinear was supposedly enabled in the highest quality mode, but it was later found that the driver forces "brilinear" filtering even when you disabled all the optimizations.
Click to expand...

the gf4 (and previous) cards had the best AF, however when r300 was introduced with it's crappy AF, seemed nobody cared, so seems nv figured no one cared, they went the same route with the gf5.

with r500, ati is finally heading in the other direction, we'll have to see if nvidia follows again...


 
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Originally posted by: CaiNaM
Originally posted by: crazydingo
People who dont notice shimmering; good for you! dont click on this thread and related topics.

People who notice shimmering; participate and hope it gets fixed.

Honestly if you are in former group, why do you have a problem. Its not a problem to you, good for you. Enjoy. Why do you have a problem with others wanting it to be fixed. 😕
Click to expand...

lol.. now THAT's a solution! only ppl who can slam nv are invited to read this thread 😉

By the way CD, do you own one of these cards and are you being effected/bothered by it?

but back to the topic, can someone who is experiencing this tell me if manually turning these "opts" off noticeably increase image quality?
Click to expand...


Read the article, they post pictures highlighting the difference between opts on and off. Secondly this problem has been persistent throughout a huge span of nVidia's drivers, according to the article: "and this for quite some time (tested with most important drivers from 66.72 to 83.40". Optmizations not shutting off in HQ AF mode for OGL means that all HQ AF OGL benchmarks done for nVidia cards have been exaggerated. I guess I need to repeat this about 10x before it gets into the thick skulls of some nVidia fans.

Edit: Another pic showing the quality difference between opts on and off: http://www.skenegroup.net/tertsi/doom3/hqnoopt_vs_hqopt.html
Click to expand...

ahh.. thanks for the link. am more interested in real experience - how it appears when playing. still shots are hard to guage (as a matter of fact i think the "optimized" version looks more realistic if not better; too much banding in the grates).

i will agree tho that there is a definate difference (for good or bad), and that's not right as if you turn it "off", it should be "off".
 
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Originally posted by: beggerking
IMO. Care to explain what happened here with the ATI card? I don't see you making a big deal out of that..😕
Click to expand...
Since 3DMock isn't a compelling game title, the worst case senario is that it artifically inflates the score. If so, I'll be sure to add my condemnation of the "lucky by-product" of a driver bug 😉 Besides that possibility, I see no reason why anyone would give a shat about a synthetic benchmark having an IQ issue. I don't even watch the bench run once I've seen it, unless evaluating an overclock and checking for artifacting.

The shimmering in games we all pay for is much more relevant to me as a consumer. Only competitive benchmarkers, reviewers and such that can make proper use of the tools, and some others <---whom I simply can't relate to, buy Futuremock products.
Click to expand...

I don't see how graphics can be rendered differently in benchmarks as compared to games. If the bug exist in the benchmark, it exists in the game. A behchmark is simply a game with timing.
 
Originally posted by: beggerking
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: crazydingo
People who dont notice shimmering; good for you! dont click on this thread and related topics.

People who notice shimmering; participate and hope it gets fixed.

Honestly if you are in former group, why do you have a problem. Its not a problem to you, good for you. Enjoy. Why do you have a problem with others wanting it to be fixed. 😕
Click to expand...

But didn't you try to point out that this thread was not about shimmering? And even went as far to say that I should "read" the thread and quote and bold someones statements?
I truly wish you all would make up your minds and actually know what the point is that you're trying to convey. One guy says its not about shimmering, but about optimizations not being turned off when HQ is set. Another guy says, If you don't notice shimmering, don't click on this thread (inside the thread :roll: ) but if you do, you are welcome.
Click to expand...
Joker:
Boogertroll, read>comprehend>post. It's been stated quite clearly what this thread is about.
Click to expand...
JokerTroll, care to explain what this thread is about? or are you just going to reply with pure trolling statement as without providing an answer to the question? again..
Click to expand...

Beggerking, some of us are here to discuss. Some are here to be caught on a hook by baiting trolls, and some are just plain trolls. Which are you?

In the very post above yours, Joker explained things in a decent manner. I would go read that and edit the post of yours I quoted here, because it does nothing to stabilize this conversation. Calm down, stop being so defensive and emotionally thin. Or go away.
Please.

Thanks in advance,
Keys
 
Originally posted by: beggerking
Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: crazydingo

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
shimmering is not even what this thread is about...
Click to expand...
Agree but apparently keysplyr2003 thinks shimmering is the only thing this thread about.
Click to expand...

Actually Dingo, I will quote myself here because you can't remember as far as ten posts back what was said.

Quote:"But didn't you try to point out that this thread was not about shimmering? And even went as far to say that I should "read" the thread and quote and bold someones statements?
I truly wish you all would make up your minds and actually know what the point is that you're trying to convey. One guy says its not about shimmering, but about optimizations not being turned off when HQ is set. Another guy says, If you don't notice shimmering, don't click on this thread (inside the thread :roll: ) but if you do, you are welcome. "

I asked what this thread was about if it was not about shimmering.
When HQ is applied, optimizations are NOT turned off AND RESULTS WITH WHAT????
Reduced image quality in the form of?????? Shimmering for one thing?

I looked at Jokers mouseover screenshot and did notice some aliasing going on with optimizations on, but only in certain portions of the screen. Again, this is something blown way out of proportion. The floor grating after a certain distance seemed aliased or not filtered properly with opts on. And the corner of the wall where the guy is standing on the catwalk is aliased more. I think settings need to be checked again. Thats all.
Click to expand...



Having the opts still enabled when HQ AF is turned on results in:

1. Shimmering.
2. Reduced image quality (aliasing).
3. Falsely increased performance.

Disabling the opts manually results in:

1. Increased image quality.
2. Decrease in performance.


So yes shimmering is a side effect of these opts not shutting off with HQ AF in OpenGL. We can't say it's a specific driver set either because as the website noted, this has spanned across multiple driver revisions over a very long period of time and as a result, all HQ AF OpenGL benchmarks done are invalid. Did that clear things up?
Click to expand...

wow, aweful.. but not as bad as purple dots on ATI cards IMO. Care to explain what happened here with the ATI card? I don't see you making a big deal out of that..😕
Click to expand...

Purple dots on ATI cards have nothing to do with this conversation. If you wish to discuss purple dots, start a thread about it and I'm sure we will all participate in it.
 
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Beggerking, some of us are here to discuss. Some are here to be caught on a hook by baiting trolls, and some are just plain trolls. Which are you?

In the very post above yours, Joker explained things in a decent manner. I would go read that and edit the post of yours I quoted here, because it does nothing to stabilize this conversation. Calm down, stop being so defensive and emotionally thin. Or go away.
Please.

Thanks in advance,
Keys
Click to expand...

well, Joker called me name first, didn't he?
I'm stating that this forum on the old old topic of shimmering is unnecessary since most of us knew already about the shimmering problem.
we might as well recreate a thread on the purple dot problem since both are reposts.

What is the purpose of this thread? seriously. Obviously this thread is not about finding a solution since the only solution for both problems are driver updates, which isn't up to any of us.

---

beggerking,

This is real simple. Stop thread crapping, or stop posting. If you cannot do the first option, we can enforce the second one.

AnandTech Moderator
 
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