Nvidia delays GTX Titan Z - 790 incoming?

[realibrad]

Guys can we face it that the Titan at $1000 was absolute robbery?

Nope, because it was not robbery. Its even an argument of semantics. If you wanted the top card, and you did not care about price/perf it was an option and nvidia did not force anyone to get it.

Its like saying that a Bentley is robbery because its expensive.


Nvidia is in a tough spot. I don't see now Nvida comes out of this looking good. Even if they release the Titan Z at $2000, they will get fried because the card is not good at gaming vs the 295x. If anyone ever doubted the Titan was a card for gamers, then this is it. Why would Nvidia pull the card when its non gaming abilities have not changed, only its relation to a gaming card has.

 

[toyota]

Guys can we face it that the Titan at $1000 was absolute robbery? Its absurdly expensive, no matter what type the cooler is, it could have been high end liquid cooler and it was still too expensive at $1000.

Now they are trying to test the limit again with this Titan Z, which AMD screw for them by releasing a faster card than the Titan Z at half the price with better cooling.

Even though I think $1500 for a dual-gpu is overkill as well, I think about $1000 is the max for a dual-gpu and $500 max for a single gpu, everything else is outright robbery of stupid people.

I want my GTX 460 1GB at $150, not at $250. GTX 760 costs over $250, it used to cost $150. Even the GTX 560 TI cost $200 at start came down to $150 in 6 months.

exaggerate much? the 460 768mb was $200 and the 460 1gb was $230. gtx560 ti 1gb launched at $250 not $200. the gtx760 2gb has been on sale at times for $200. prices do suck right now and there are very few deals to be had but no need to over dramatize and exaggerate.

 

[moonbogg]

Read somewhere that Nvidia is making some modifications to the cooler to push for more mhz while maintaining acceptable temps. This delay is centered around the cooling dept because it's the limiting factor.

How can you make changes to thousands of coolers that were supposed to be ready to go already? Wouldn't that kind of thing take months? They can't make a physical change like that and have it ready in a few days.

 

[Meekers]

How can you make changes to thousands of coolers that were supposed to be ready to go already? Wouldn't that kind of thing take months? They can't make a physical change like that and have it ready in a few days.

Not unless you pull an AMD and just raise fan speeds at the last minute.

 

[DiogoDX]

Nvidia can increase clockspeeds, put a more agressive fan profile and tweak the turbo rainsing temp limit like they did with the 780Ti. They only need to be at last 5% faster than 295X2 to market TitanZ with the performance crown.

 

[moonbogg]

Nvidia can increase clockspeeds, put a more agressive fan profile and tweak the turbo rainsing temp limit like they did with the 780Ti. They only need to be at last 5% faster than 295X2 to market TitanZ with the performance crowd.

And justify double the price, LOL. This is too much. I have to admit, I am really looking forward to these reviews. Should be quite a show. If this kind of pricing sticks, I am going to be a mid range buyer only and have zero issue with it. I just won't spend $800 per GPU or whatever. Won't do it.

 

[blackened23]

The Titan Z won't be reviewed just like the Titan black wasn't reviewed (one exception that i'm aware of, that wasn't sent by NV IIRC). As the card is a hybrid card mostly intended for CUDA developers. Yes, it has been marketed for gaming, which is stupid. I don't disagree with that. But the Titan Black was not reviewed by anyone except one website that did quad SLI tests because they got their hands on it. And they'll sell fine I think (to prosumer/CUDA developers), although gamers shouldn't buy it. And NV should really think their marketing through, because marketing this to gamers is fairly stupid IMO.

 

[chimaxi83]

The Titan Z won't be reviewed just like the Titan black wasn't reviewed (one exception that i'm aware of, that wasn't sent by NV IIRC). As the card is a hybrid card mostly intended for CUDA developers. Yes, it has been marketed for gaming, which is stupid. I don't disagree with that. But the Titan Black was not reviewed by anyone except one website that did quad SLI tests because they got their hands on it.

Now I understand NV did some retarded marketing with the Titan Z, but I don't see them sending any cards out for review. They didn't with the Titan Black and won't with the Titan Z. And they'll sell fine (to prosumer/CUDA developers), although gamers shouldn't buy it. And NV should really think their marketing through, because marketing this to gamers is fairly stupid IMO.

You keep saying this without realizing it's just your opinion. Doh. According to Nvidia, the creators of the card, it's

Built around two Kepler GPUs and 12GB of dedicated frame buffer memory, TITAN Z is engineered for next-generation 5K and multi-monitor gaming.

With two GK110 chips, TITAN Z is powered by a total of 5,760 processing cores, or 2,880 cores per GPU.

“If you’re in desperate need of a supercomputer that you can fit under your desk, we have just the card for you,” Jen-Hsun said.

Unlike traditional dual-GPU cards, Titan Z’s twin GPUs are tuned to run at the same clock speed, and with dynamic power balancing. So neither GPU creates a performance bottleneck.

And that performance is delivered in a card that is cool and quiet, rather than hot and loud. Low-profile components and ducted baseplate channels minimize turbulence and improves acoustic quality.

So if you want to build the ultimate ultra-high definition gaming rig that can harness the power of quad GPUs working in tandem, TITAN Z is the perfect graphics card.

I fail to see them express the same opinion about this being a "hybrid card mostly intended for CUDA developers".

 

[blackened23]

At GTC their presentation was based on the compute capabilities, specifically for CUDA. But think what you will, your stance is hardly surprising. It's a fact that the CUDA capabilities of the Titan Z is 55 times faster than the GTX 780ti SLI so there's obviously a difference in what these SKUs can do outside of gaming. These cards are not the same in terms of CUDA capabilities, even though some here would suggest no difference. Both cards game similarly, they do not have similar CUDA development capabilities, not even close.

The difference is CUDA performance, which puts it in the same performance range as the Quadro K6000 (even two of them in a rack)for such tasks. The 780ti SLI isn't in the same league for that. That's the facts. But yeah, their marketing spin for gaming was dumb. Heads should roll at NV's marketing department, as it is quite dumb for them to market this card at ALL to gamers. I just said it was dumb, but you conveniently ignored that. I also would find it hard to believe any PC gamer would buy this card.

Then again, these widespread misconceptions are based on what NV's marketing has done. So while I think the price will be just fine for the intended market (and will sell fine for the prosumer market), the blame for the internet misconceptions lies with NV marketing and no one else. Their fault and theirs alone. Again, they should really re-examine how to market this card. I'm pretty sure the card will sell fine to the prosumer market, but marketing it towards gaming...just..no. I can't understand why they would do that after JHH went through his spiel of how the card is a "supercomputer under the desk". That would have been a proper marketing angle. Anyway, Nv even did a gaming spin with the Tegra 3 chips which was somewhat confusing. I guess it's just what they're used to doing in terms of marketing after years of selling gaming chips. I dunno. Not that it makes it the correct way to market a product every time.

While I like their products, I really think NV's marketing dropped the ball on this one. It won't affect their prosumer sales as those folks just buy what's best, but to the layman PC gamer it does look bad when a card like this is 3000$. Same story on probably a lot of websites like this one, they're looking at the Titan Z pricetag through PC gaming eyes. And that's NV's fault, really, so I can see why a lot of folks look at it in those terms. Even though it's not completely 100% valid: when NV markets it partially for that purpose, people will look at it that way. So I understand that regardless of the CUDA aspect of the card.

 

[moonbogg]

I can see what Blackened is saying about the marketing. I could almost see them charging a premium for the ability to have 4 GPUs in a single system, but the problem is that you can do that anyway with Titan Blacks for $2,000 less. The pricing makes this card fail by all counts, for all markets IMO.

 

[Grooveriding]

Nvidia can increase clockspeeds, put a more agressive fan profile and tweak the turbo rainsing temp limit like they did with the 780Ti. They only need to be at last 5% faster than 295X2 to market TitanZ with the performance crowd.

780ti SLI needs 1100mhz+ speeds to come to 295x2 levels. I'm thinking it's impossible to run the titanz at those clocks with air cooling short of cranking the fan to wind turbine levels, raising voltages and running it really hot. I can't see that happening, it flies in the face of the cool & quiet with low power consumption mantra of the Kepler marketing brigade. Nvidia also has a poor history with pushing dual gpu cards to their limits. They won't want another exploding gtx 590 situation.

It is almost certainly game over for titanz as far as having the performance crown as a gaming card. Slower, twice the price and hotter running vs 295x2 is inevitable.

Maybe they are working on a 790 with something similar cooling it as is on the 295x2. Titanz is done as far as gaming goes for top performance.

 

[3DVagabond]

AMD and NVidia have been playing leap frog for the last couple of years as far as performance goes.

No need to jump to any conclusions this early in the game....It's a who knows what's going to happen.

We don't even know where the fence posts are going to be set yet. Is it going to be power draw? VRM temps? Noise? Performance per watt?....These things change with every new GPU launch.

This^^^

Some people seem to have selective memory. AMD has had the fastest single GPU card and/or the fastest dual GPU card for quite a number months running recently. As you say, "They've been playing leapfrog for the last couple of years." They only seem to be awoken though when nVidia is faster for some reason.

Also, not all architectures scale well. You couldn't really compare Pitcairn to Tahiti for gaming efficiency. Pitcairn was better. Compute? Tahiti stomped Pitcairn. GK104 compute? Is it even worth mentioning?

Hawaii, when fully enabled kills GK110 (and Tahiti and Pitcairn) in DP compute (most compute actually, when you consider AMD's massive lead in most OpenCL tasks and scrypt mining).

Once people's blinders are removed and they look at the entire picture taking all GPU performance parameters into account, there are no overall wins for either side. The only real metric that I would give nVidia the lead in is perf/W when limiting the task to gaming. Of course there's CUDA, but that's not easily compared since it only runs on nVidia GPU's.

 

[3DVagabond]

How can you make changes to thousands of coolers that were supposed to be ready to go already? Wouldn't that kind of thing take months? They can't make a physical change like that and have it ready in a few days.

Not unless you pull an AMD and just raise fan speeds at the last minute.

Agreed. More agressive fan profile and possibly raise the voltage and temp targets to gain performance. I'll be very surprised though id they can make up the stagger simply with bios adjustments.

 

[Gikaseixas]

How can you make changes to thousands of coolers that were supposed to be ready to go already? Wouldn't that kind of thing take months? They can't make a physical change like that and have it ready in a few days.

Yeah you're right, doesn't seem like a plausible solution for them.
Perhaps a bump in fan speeds while sacrificing some noise to allow higher clocks like ppl are saying.

 

[SimsReaper]

Titan Z will release as the fastest graphics card on the market. It will be faster than the 295X when it is released. Are they relooking at things to make this happen, I'm sure they are doing exactly that. Will the Titan Z be a comparable price or come near the 295X in terms of performance per dollar? I seriously doubt this.

My GUESS (which is all ANYONE here is doing), is that the Titan Z will be 5-10% faster than the 295X. However, it will be 35-45% more expensive. And yes, it will still be around $2500. Why? Because Nvidia and AMD both always make you pay more than the "scaling" value for the best of the best card.

See you all in a few weeks when the release happens, then all you poor folks complaining about the "ridiculous" price of the high end graphics cards can read the reviews, and see if I'm right, or if I'm wrong. All the people not complaining about the price, will be experiencing the card for themselves. And as much as I love to read, I like living the experience much more....

 

[Wild Thing]

Agreed. More agressive fan profile and possibly raise the voltage and temp targets to gain performance. I'll be very surprised though id they can make up the stagger simply with bios adjustments.

Looking at the numbers so far vis a vis the 295x2 and TitanZ/GK110 cards I don't think they can surpass the 295 with a voltage and clock speed bump.
It's already fairly heavy on power when pushed in SLI and H/P/ ramps dramatically if you are trying to outgun the twin Hawaii card with hot clocks.

With liquid cooling they may pull it off.

However,they will also have to reconfigure their SLI interface because the XDMA hardware engine and its excellent scaling is another reason that 295x2 is so fast.Using the PCle bus is just better it seems.
Compute integer performance is also very good on Hawaii X2.
Miners aside it would be good to see devs taking advantage of it's processing power.

NVidia has a fair bit of work to do to catch it I'd say.

 

[Stuka87]

Titan Z will release as the fastest graphics card on the market. It will be faster than the 295X when it is released. Are they relooking at things to make this happen, I'm sure they are doing exactly that. Will the Titan Z be a comparable price or come near the 295X in terms of performance per dollar? I seriously doubt this.

My GUESS (which is all ANYONE here is doing), is that the Titan Z will be 5-10% faster than the 295X. However, it will be 35-45% more expensive. And yes, it will still be around $2500. Why? Because Nvidia and AMD both always make you pay more than the "scaling" value for the best of the best card.

Unless nVidia cranks the clocks way up, the Titan Z will not be faster than a 295x2. We may all be guessing, but at least most of u are making educated guesses.

 

[tviceman]

cranking the fan to wind turbine levels, raising voltages and running it really hot.

This is exactly what AMD did with the 290x and 290 to make it look competitive with gtx780 TI and gtx780. I hope Nvidia doesn't follow this practice.

 

[Gikaseixas]

NVidia has a fair bit of work to do to catch it I'd say.

Lots of head scratching going on at NV headquarters. 295x has turned up to be better than expected. This will make them not charge $3000 for Titan Z, even if it's faster, i say $2000 tops.

 

[Skurge]

This is exactly what AMD did with the 290x and 290 to make it look competitive with gtx780 TI and gtx780. I hope Nvidia doesn't follow this practice.

Look competitive you say.

 

[SlickR12345]

Lots of head scratching going on at NV headquarters. 295x has turned up to be better than expected. This will make them not charge $3000 for Titan Z, even if it's faster, i say $2000 tops.

They won't. At best they can charge $1500 as well, even if the card is faster.

The marketplace for such a card is basically review websites, overlcockers going to the bench records or developers, but its still very small and at $1500 its pushing the limits already, at $2000 it will be way too expensive compared to AMD 295x

 

[Saylick]

They won't. At best they can charge $1500 as well, even if the card is faster.

The marketplace for such a card is basically review websites, overlcockers going to the bench records or developers, but its still very small and at $1500 its pushing the limits already, at $2000 it will be way too expensive compared to AMD 295x

They can't drop below $2000 imo unless they would be willing to drop the price of Titan Black, which is also unlikely since that would cause a cascading effect on the rest of the line-up. I'm calling $2500 tops after increased clock speeds, fan profile/cooling refinement, and a higher power limit.

 

[tviceman]

Look competitive you say.

Slower (unless the user happens to run CFX on 4k, which narrows it down to 34 people world wide), hotter, louder, more power draw, doesn't overclock as well, and until 3 weeks ago was priced way too high.

Yep, I think I said it right.

 

[Gikaseixas]

unless the user happens to run CFX on 4k

Correction: CF doesn't need to be at 4k to beat SLI, they trade blows but CF actually provides better gaming experience. Higher FPS by itself is not a good key performance indicator these days.

 

[Skurge]

Slower (unless the user happens to run CFX on 4k, which narrows it down to 34 people world wide), hotter, louder, more power draw, doesn't overclock as well, and until 3 weeks ago was priced way too high.

Yep, I think I said it right.

290 is cheaper and faster than 780

290x is slower and cheaper than 780 Ti as it should be. difference is small. They don't just look competitive. They are.

Windforce, Tri-X, Vapor-X, DCU2, PCS+, XFX DD, all those are very cool and very quiet. Just as cool and just as quiet as the nVidia counterparts. The AMD exclusive cards, being cooler and quieter than the nvidia ones.

More power draw? Sure if 30W matters to you? sure. It doesn't to me. Other people can decide that for themselves.