NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

[K1052]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1250880699541962753

No control arm but promising.

 

[manly]

The WHO went on to complain about USA doing the most obvious / basic thing (limiting flights from China). USA announced China travel restrictions on January 31 - the next day after WHO finally declared it a "public health emergency."

The state department issued a level 4 "do not travel" advisory on the same day as the WHO declaration.

If I wanted Trump talking points, I can watch his pressers. I don't need to hear you regurgitate them.
The thing is that experts say travel bans don't work, and studies show they just barely slow the spread of the virus. There's no such thing as a total lockdown of all your ports of entry, so Trump's action was meaningless. The Covid-19 that hit New York came via Europe.

He limited flights from China when market demand was already low. What he actually did was ban Chinese nationals from flying in. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of Americans flew FROM CHINA into the U.S. before the "ban," and tens of thousands more after the ban. By the time Trump decided to ban entry from continental Europe, it was far too late (and he curiously decided to exclude the UK to make the Brits feel good). The "most obvious" thing as you put it didn't accomplish a thing for the U.S.

Finally, what you need to understand is that the W.H.O. is not a political organization. Look back at previous epidemics, they have never advocated for a travel ban. They believe it restricts the flow of health professionals and materials that can aid efforts to stop the epidemic. In their words:
https://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/guidance/public_health/travel_advice/en/

Look, I'm not exactly defending the W.H.O.'s handling of Covid-19 here. I'm not a pandemics expert, and time/history will judge their work. What I am saying is that Trump's scapegoating of them is laughably incorrect and political, and also contradicted by the record of things he's personally done and said between January and now. In short, regardless of where the virus originated, the U.S. is most responsible for the public health of its citizens. I wouldn't blame China for Covid-19 deaths in NYC anymore than I would blame Italy and western Europe.

 

[CZroe]

If I wanted Trump talking points, I can watch his pressers. I don't need to hear you regurgitate them.
The thing is that experts say travel bans don't work, and studies show they just barely slow the spread of the virus. There's no such thing as a total lockdown of all your ports of entry, so Trump's action was meaningless. The Covid-19 that hit New York came via Europe.

He limited flights from China when market demand was already low. What he actually did was ban Chinese nationals from flying in. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of Americans flew FROM CHINA into the U.S. before the "ban," and tens of thousands more after the ban. By the time Trump decided to ban entry from continental Europe, it was far too late (and he curiously decided to exclude the UK to make the Brits feel good). The "most obvious" thing as you put it didn't accomplish a thing for the U.S.

Finally, what you need to understand is that the W.H.O. is not a political organization. Look back at previous epidemics, they have never advocated for a travel ban. They believe it restricts the flow of health professionals and materials that can aid efforts to stop the epidemic. In their words:
https://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/guidance/public_health/travel_advice/en/

Look, I'm not exactly defending the W.H.O.'s handling of Covid-19 here. I'm not a pandemics expert, and time/history will judge their work. What I am saying is that Trump's scapegoating of them is laughably incorrect and political, and also contradicted by the record of things he's personally done and said between January and now. In short, regardless of where the virus originated, the U.S. is most responsible for the public health of its citizens. I wouldn't blame China for Covid-19 deaths in NYC anymore than I would blame Italy and western Europe.

Why did the WHO praise China for taking the hard steps and banning travel to/from Wuhan while simultaneously telling the rest of the world not to? When China condemned countries for stopping flights to/from the area, they pointed to the WHO's statement to back up their own eerily-similar statements. Remember: They themselves had stopped flights to/from the area while they condemned the rest of the world for even considering it.

China is using the WHO to influence the world.

 

[manly]

China is using the WHO to influence the world.

So the logical response to that is for the U.S. to pull funding in protest? K1052's response is better than mine:

It's really hard to demand reform if you've already left the table.

It is highly unlikely that this opening will do anything but strengthen China's influence with the WHO.

 

[Muse]

"Decent working conditions" means access to water and port-o-potties so you don't dehydrate and you don't have people taking a dump in irrigation ditches. E.coli on your romaine? Ever wonder why?

Ah for crying out loud, go read Grapes of Wrath.

Aha, I had no idea that that book had to do with contaminated produce. Guess so based on what you say there. So, it sent me just now, looking at the DIY bookshelves I have installed here in my bedroom and I spotted Steinbeck's Pastures of Heaven, and then in the shelf adjacent, Grapes of Wrath, Modern Library bound book edition.

I have so much to read right now, but figure to give this a big try. I am not sure I've read an entire Steinbeck novel (I'm not much for fiction, rarely pick it up these days), but I know he was a great writer and figure to read GOW, which I know is one of his best known works.

A friend/acquaintance alerted me to Jack London's "The Scarlet Plague," a few days ago. It's available free via the Gutenberg Project and I downloaded it to my Kindle and started it the other day. London, over 100 years ago was more aware of 21st century susceptibility to a world wide pandemic than we were! He'd endured a resurgence of the bubonic plague in our region (SF Bay). The Scarlet Plague is actually set in 2012, IIRC. I'm pretty into London, from the days in the 1970's when I read some of his major works. Great imagination and breadth of experience. However he had his issues. For one thing money always burned holes in his pockets. After a bit he was always writing because he had to! I think that eventually destroyed him as an artist and person, my personal opinion.

 

[randay]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1250880699541962753

No control arm but promising.

just pumping stonks, nothing to see here

 

[myocardia]

Interesting and thanks, looks like I'll be adding a vit D supplement to go along with C, multivitamin, and zinc.

That's not necessary. Check the label on your multivitamin. I have never seen a multivitamin with less than ~90% of the RDA of Vitamin D, and most of the decent ones have 200-250%. We don't need much Vitamin D at all. The RDA for the average male is measured in micrograms/day, not milligrams/day.

 

[Kaido]

Updated livestream:

 

[Kaido]

We're about to cross 35,000 deaths in America & we have this nonsense going on:

The social-distancing deniers have arrived

Patience is in ever-shorter supply. No one is happy with the current situation. But some Americans see the yoke of oppression in public health efforts to keep people home, and they're growing louder.

www.cnn.com

Not only were dozens of random people standing close together, but they used their cars to create a blockade & blocked an ambulance by a hospital. Keep in mind that Michigan currently has the third highest death toll in America:

Coronavirus updates, April 16: Over 2,000 people have died in Michigan from COVID-19

Here are live updates on coronavirus for Thursday, April 16.

www.wzzm13.com

Granted, people aren't protesting without reason. Michigan currently has almost 25% of their workforce laid off:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/16/michigan-unemployment-coronavirus/

Their economists are also predicting that the peak unemployement rate during the coronavirus crisus will like be double what it was at the height of the 2007 to 2009 downturn. They think it's going to last into May & taper off into June if the state is ready to reopen, according to the article above.

To top it off, people in Flint are still using bottled water:

Michigan's Ex-Gov. Rick Snyder Knew About Flint's Toxic Water—and Lied About It

Six years after the city of Flint, Michigan, began using a toxic water source that sickened its residents, VICE uncovered payoffs, the silencing of a whistleblower, a shady financial deal, a coverup, and the former governor who presided over it all.

www.vice.com

 

[DrMrLordX]

Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of Americans flew FROM CHINA into the U.S. before the "ban," and tens of thousands more after the ban.

American citizens can't be barred from entering the country. Especially not when they're otherwise law-abiding citizens. MAYBE you can mandate a quarantine period for them. Maybe.

At least this time around, we got a travel ban of some kind. Remember what happened when Zika virus first hit the scene? No controls whatsoever. None! We dodged a bullet. Everyone got lucky.

Aha, I had no idea that that book had to do with contaminated produce.

Reading comprehension, please. Others have been discussing this in the thread already. It should be clear by now why I brought up that book.

 

[Ichinisan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1250880699541962753

No control arm but promising.

"The University of Chicago Medicine recruited 125 people with Covid-19 into Gilead’s two Phase 3 clinical trials. Of those people, 113 had severe disease. All the patients have been treated with daily infusions of remdesivir.

The best news is that most of our patients have already been discharged, which is great. We’ve only had two patients perish,” said Kathleen Mullane, the University of Chicago infectious disease specialist overseeing the remdesivir studies for the hospital."

2 deaths in 125 patients sounds pretty bad to me.

 

[Ichinisan]

If I wanted Trump talking points, I can watch his pressers. I don't need to hear you regurgitate them.

Cut this shit out.

The thing is that experts say travel bans don't work, and studies show they just barely slow the spread of the virus. There's no such thing as a total lockdown of all your ports of entry, so Trump's action was meaningless. The Covid-19 that hit New York came via Europe.

If I wanted CCP talking points, I can watch WHO press conferences. I don't need to hear you regurgitate them.

Why do anything at all then? So we shouldn't bother with social distancing and all this other stuff either, I guess.

He limited flights from China when market demand was already low. What he actually did was ban Chinese nationals from flying in. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of Americans flew FROM CHINA into the U.S. before the "ban," and tens of thousands more after the ban.

OBVIOUSLY. Why would the first restriction be done in a way to leave Americans stranded abroad? American Nationals returning from restricted areas were required to quarantine / self-isolate. CAN YOU IMAGINE if the US government cut off the American citizens there at the first moment the WHO finally declared a public health emergency? Do you not remember that many countries did everything they could to get their citizens out? Many military planes were sent to go retrieve them too.

By the time Trump decided to ban entry from continental Europe, it was far too late (and he curiously decided to exclude the UK to make the Brits feel good). The "most obvious" thing as you put it didn't accomplish a thing for the U.S.

The reason to exclude UK was obvious at the time. Maybe you were blind to it. Italy was the primary reason for banning travel from Europe. There would be no way to restrict Italy without restricting the rest of the EU. Obviously.

Restricting all international flights obviously would have been better, but most of the country at that point would have called it an "over-reaction" (though some of us knew better).

Finally, what you need to understand is that the W.H.O. is not a political organization.

HA! HA HA HA HA HA HA!

What planet are you from? Sounds like something the WHO and CCP would want you to say. This simply would not have happened if the WHO didn't play politics and do everything possible to appease the CCP every step of the way. I was stunned that other people couldn't see it LONG before Trump finally realized what was going on with CCP and WHO. That fool was late. You were even more so.

Look back at previous epidemics, they have never advocated for a travel ban. They believe it restricts the flow of health professionals and materials that can aid efforts to stop the epidemic. In their words:
https://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/guidance/public_health/travel_advice/en/[

Doo de doo de dooo:
https://www.who.int/csr/sars/travel/en/

Look, I'm not exactly defending the W.H.O.'s handling of Covid-19 here.

Could have fooled me.

I'm not a pandemics expert, and time/history will judge their work.

We're judging it right now.

What I am saying is that Trump's scapegoating of them is laughably incorrect and political, and also contradicted by the record of things he's personally done and said between January and now. In short, regardless of where the virus originated, the U.S. is most responsible for the public health of its citizens. I wouldn't blame China for Covid-19 deaths in NYC anymore than I would blame Italy and western Europe.

This is absurdly partisan. December and January is where WHO screwed the planet with their appeasement of China. Most of the media downplayed it as "like the flu." I couldn't believe how ignorant everyone was, including Trump. Of course USA is most responsible for its citizens. Like Taiwan, we shouldn't have trusted the CCP. We shouldn't have trusted WHO when they were only reporting the information given to them by CCP. We shouldn't have trusted the media that only repeated information from CCP + WHO. "OMG HE'S DEFENDING TRUMP!" No I'm not. This has nothing to do with him. I never listen to Trump speak because I can't stand his brain-dead bloviating nonsense. I knew this shit looong before Trump finally reached this realization (way too late). He should always have better info than an average Joe and should absolutely be blamed for his failed response.

Now look at Taiwan and tell me how travel restrictions "don't work."

 

[manly]

American citizens can't be barred from entering the country. Especially not when they're otherwise law-abiding citizens. MAYBE you can mandate a quarantine period for them. Maybe.

At least this time around, we got a travel ban of some kind. Remember what happened when Zika virus first hit the scene? No controls whatsoever. None! We dodged a bullet. Everyone got lucky.

Banning only Chinese nationals from entering the U.S. made no difference whatsoever when hundreds of thousands of others flew in from China, Asia and Europe since January. Utterly pointless to tout Trump's initial "travel ban" which accomplished nothing. Now if you want to rewrite history so that POTUS locked down all ports of entry in early January, then yeah we'd have far fewer COVID-19 cases.

To be clear, what does the WHO advocate for? Instead of an international travel ban, you screen the heck out of ALL arriving passengers and strictly enforce on-site quarantine. So ironically Trump decided to do a little bit of the action that barely works, and ignore the actions that successful countries have employed at their international airports.

Our NIH found that local control measures are more effective than travel restrictions:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1450020/

Cut this shit out.

If I wanted CCP talking points, I can watch WHO press conferences. I don't need to hear you regurgitate them.

Why do anything at all then? So we shouldn't bother with social distancing and all this other stuff either, I guess.

Pot, meet kettle? The difference is I'm pointing out what Trump's China "travel ban" amounted to, which is nothing. I quoted no WHO press conferences whatsoever, so what's your point? I guess you have a certain agenda here to discredit WHO, but calling the WHO a mouthpiece of the CCP really weakens the argument.

And are you obtuse enough to think I've said do nothing? If that was the case, I'd be pleased w/ the President's handling of coronavirus so far.
Social distancing works, and it's working well anyplace that's doing it rigorously. Personally I think it's going to have to go on for a lot longer than this arbitrary May 1 grand re-opening that's a political goal of many.

OBVIOUSLY. Why would the first restriction be done in a way to leave Americans stranded abroad? American Nationals returning from restricted areas were required to quarantine / self-isolate. CAN YOU IMAGINE if the US government cut off the American citizens there at the first moment the WHO finally declared a public health emergency? Do you not remember that many countries were did everything they could to get their citizens out? Many military planes were sent to go retrieve them too.



The reason to exclude UK was obvious at the time. Maybe you were blind to it. Italy was the primary reason for banning travel from Europe. There would be no way to restrict Italy without restricting the rest of the EU. Obviously.

Restricting all international flights obviously would have been better, but most of the country at that point would have called it an "over-reaction" (though some of us knew better).

Americans who returned from restricted areas in early March were required under the force of law to self-isolate? Besides the ones flown back by Dept. of State and quarantined, I must have missed that. LOL I'm not imagining if American citizens were barred reentry. The point is that short of literally grounding all international flights early, any highly targeted and belated bans are ineffectual.

By the time the U.S. banned travel from western Europe, it was way too late. Then mere days later, he banned the UK as well. So not sure why it's "obvious" that flights from the UK were still OK. The virus was already here in the U.S. spreading in several states.

HA! HA HA HA HA HA HA!

What planet are you from? Sounds like something the WHO and CCP would want you to say. This simply would not have happened if the WHO didn't play politics and do everything possible to appease the CCP every step of the way. I was stunned that other people couldn't see it LONG before Trump finally realized what was going on with CCP and WHO. That fool was late. You were even more so.



Doo de doo de dooo:
https://www.who.int/csr/sars/travel/en/



Could have fooled me.

The WHO works for and is funded by its member nations. Is it susceptible to political forces? Absolutely. Does it have a cabal of operators who scheme up ways to boost China and fool the West? Highly debatable, and something you present no clear proof of. But I honestly don't follow the WHO closely. Read yesterday's NYT piece, which explains how and why WHO tries to remain apolitical.

Again, how is pouting and taking our ball home going to fix the problem of the WHO kowtowing to China? It won't. It's obviously scapegoating, which is what POTUS does.

We're judging it right now.



This is absurdly partisan. December and January is where WHO screwed the planet with their appeasement of China. Most of the media downplayed it as "like the flu." I couldn't believe how ignorant everyone was, including Trump. Of course USA is most responsible for its citizens. Like Taiwan, we shouldn't have trusted the CCP. We shouldn't have trusted WHO when they were only reporting the information given to them by CCP. We shouldn't have trusted the media that only repeated information from CCP + WHO. "OMG HE'S DEFENDING TRUMP!" No I'm not. This has nothing to do with him. I never listen to Trump speak because I can't stand his brain-dead bloviating nonsense. I knew this shit looong before Trump finally reached this realization (way too late). He should always have better info than an average Joe and should absolutely be blamed for his failed response.

Now look at Taiwan and tell me how travel bans "don't work."

IIRC JAMA published an article of 126 things in Taiwan's action plan that they did to squelch SARS-CoV-2. I guess I'm going to take the word of public health experts on travel bans rather than your apparent claim that a single factor explains why Taiwan has succeeded. Even if a true/full travel ban does help, that's not what Trump ordered.

As for us injecting partisan politics into this thread, well yeah that's precisely what happens when POTUS chooses to blame anyone but his own administration for its fuck-ups. There's plenty of blame to go around in-house.

You're incredibly fixated on this December timeline that CCP and the WHO "screwed the planet" in its slow response to COVID-19. As I've said before, I don't dispute some of that stuff. You claim it was patently obvious sometime in January that the wool was being pulled over everyone's eyes, yet most of the world's countries still failed to act. If it really was that obvious, then there's no excuse for most countries to have bumbled along until early March.

The proper reaction to China fully locking down a province of 60M people and the WHO declaring a global public health emergency was to... sit on your hands for over a month? The Trump administration's inactions are way more culpable for the COVID-19 epidemic within the U.S. than a week lost due to the W.H.O. acting too kindly towards China. It's not even particularly close.

 

[Muse]

Reading comprehension, please. Others have been discussing this in the thread already. It should be clear by now why I brought up that book.

I didn't read all the post leading up to the one I responded to. This thread is very busy and I haven't kept up. Why exactly did you bring up "that book?" And by "that book" I presume you're talking about Grapes of Wrath?

Really, in a one dimensional thread (which is what we always get here at Anandtech Forums), it is smart to take a moment to make it clear what your post refers to when possible if it isn't too much trouble.

 

[Muse]

He's not being too paranoid. Now if you and your relatives are all practicing good hygiene, the risk is fairly low and you're probably fine.

But interacting with family and friends basically defeats the purpose of social distancing.

He's also high risk, so ...

 

[Muse]

Cut this shit out.



If I wanted CCP talking points, I can watch WHO press conferences. I don't need to hear you regurgitate them.

Why do anything at all then? So we shouldn't bother with social distancing and all this other stuff either, I guess.



OBVIOUSLY. Why would the first restriction be done in a way to leave Americans stranded abroad? American Nationals returning from restricted areas were required to quarantine / self-isolate. CAN YOU IMAGINE if the US government cut off the American citizens there at the first moment the WHO finally declared a public health emergency? Do you not remember that many countries were did everything they could to get their citizens out? Many military planes were sent to go retrieve them too.



The reason to exclude UK was obvious at the time. Maybe you were blind to it. Italy was the primary reason for banning travel from Europe. There would be no way to restrict Italy without restricting the rest of the EU. Obviously.

Restricting all international flights obviously would have been better, but most of the country at that point would have called it an "over-reaction" (though some of us knew better).



HA! HA HA HA HA HA HA!

What planet are you from? Sounds like something the WHO and CCP would want you to say. This simply would not have happened if the WHO didn't play politics and do everything possible to appease the CCP every step of the way. I was stunned that other people couldn't see it LONG before Trump finally realized what was going on with CCP and WHO. That fool was late. You were even more so.



Doo de doo de dooo:
https://www.who.int/csr/sars/travel/en/



Could have fooled me.



We're judging it right now.



This is absurdly partisan. December and January is where WHO screwed the planet with their appeasement of China. Most of the media downplayed it as "like the flu." I couldn't believe how ignorant everyone was, including Trump. Of course USA is most responsible for its citizens. Like Taiwan, we shouldn't have trusted the CCP. We shouldn't have trusted WHO when they were only reporting the information given to them by CCP. We shouldn't have trusted the media that only repeated information from CCP + WHO. "OMG HE'S DEFENDING TRUMP!" No I'm not. This has nothing to do with him. I never listen to Trump speak because I can't stand his brain-dead bloviating nonsense. I knew this shit looong before Trump finally reached this realization (way too late). He should always have better info than an average Joe and should absolutely be blamed for his failed response.

Now look at Taiwan and tell me how travel bans "don't work."

The early videos of the Chinese strong-arming in Wuhan while wearing protective gear out of a science fiction movie had my utmost attention. I knew right then we were probably in trouble, the whole planet. People who downplayed the risk should now be regarded as the enemy. That includes, of course, Trump, his economic "advisers," the Fox news bullshitters. And yes, it appears that a ban on international travel could hardly have come too soon, in particular with regard to China. China was utterly incapable of stopping the epidemic within their country what with the Chinese New Year.

 

[K1052]

"The University of Chicago Medicine recruited 125 people with Covid-19 into Gilead’s two Phase 3 clinical trials. Of those people, 113 had severe disease. All the patients have been treated with daily infusions of remdesivir.

The best news is that most of our patients have already been discharged, which is great. We’ve only had two patients perish,” said Kathleen Mullane, the University of Chicago infectious disease specialist overseeing the remdesivir studies for the hospital."

2 deaths in 125 patients sounds pretty bad to me.

There isn't info on the two fatalities. It probably wasn't the drug which has a good safety profile. Anti-virals are more useful when they are given earlier so if someone with severe disease is already progressed too far it might be of less utility for some of those patients. We still need the comparison to controls and the data from the moderate severity group too.

 

[echo4747]

60% asymptomatic

Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

 

[FelixDeCat]

I didn't read all the post leading up to the one I responded to. This thread is very busy and I haven't kept up. Why exactly did you bring up "that book?" And by "that book" I presume you're talking about Grapes of Wrath?

Really, in a one dimensional thread (which is what we always get here at Anandtech Forums), it is smart to take a moment to make it clear what your post refers to when possible if it isn't too much trouble.

I did not mention any books lately. Perhaps this forum has been infected.

 

[Roger Wilco]

"The University of Chicago Medicine recruited 125 people with Covid-19 into Gilead’s two Phase 3 clinical trials. Of those people, 113 had severe disease. All the patients have been treated with daily infusions of remdesivir.

The best news is that most of our patients have already been discharged, which is great. We’ve only had two patients perish,” said Kathleen Mullane, the University of Chicago infectious disease specialist overseeing the remdesivir studies for the hospital."

2 deaths in 125 patients sounds pretty bad to me.

Out of 113 severe cases? Sounds pretty good to me.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

We're about to cross 35,000 deaths in America & we have this nonsense going on:

The social-distancing deniers have arrived

Patience is in ever-shorter supply. No one is happy with the current situation. But some Americans see the yoke of oppression in public health efforts to keep people home, and they're growing louder.

www.cnn.com

Not only were dozens of random people standing close together, but they used their cars to create a blockade & blocked an ambulance by a hospital. Keep in mind that Michigan currently has the third highest death toll in America:

It's pretty sad. Here we have an opportunity to slow down and reflect on what's really important in life... and it's work?!

I'm not going to blame some of these people who really need the income because the system has been rigged against them, but come on - why not protest against the root of the problem. I expect full disappointment after things "go back to normal" when Los Angeles has terrible traffic making it impossible to get anywhere during certain times of day, plenty of smog in the air again so you can no longer see the snow capped San Gabriels, people will eat out a ton and go back to their unhealthy habits becoming the burden of the health insurance system (and thus rest of us) years down the line, and children put back into daycares full-time because their own parents don't know how or want to raise them while they all go back to their non-stop 50+ hour weeks. None of these issues of our society will be fixed or even mitigated.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

It's pretty sad. Here we have an opportunity to slow down and reflect on what's really important in life... and it's work?!

I'm not going to blame some of these people who really need the income because the system has been rigged against them, but come on - why not protest against the root of the problem. I expect full disappointment after things "go back to normal" when Los Angeles has terrible traffic making it impossible to get anywhere during certain times of day, plenty of smog in the air again so you can no longer see the snow capped San Gabriels, people will eat out a ton and go back to their unhealthy habits becoming the burden of the health insurance system (and thus rest of us) years down the line, and children put back into daycares full-time because their own parents don't know how or want to raise them while they all go back to their non-stop 50+ hour weeks. None of these issues of our society will be fixed or even mitigated.

Anyone who wants to protest and show other people about the problems you have by... making OTHER people have problems are at the lowest end of the totem pole. I hold no sympathy and if anyone thinks that they will make progress by pissing a bunch of people off, you're just mentally unstable and need to be put out to pasture.

I don't care how bad you have it. Making more problems doesn't fix problems. We saw this with the likes of BLM blocking interstate highways.

This should be obvious and be an easy fix of making it law that if you prevent others from going about their day you're getting a mandatory 20 years in prison - no question - and no one is held liable if they run you over or move you out of the way themselves.

 

[dasherHampton]

How about this guy? He looks happy.

Connecticut man breaks into closed restaurant, spends 4 days eating, drinking

He's accused of drinking or stealing around 70 bottles of liquor, the restaurant’s management estimated.

www.foxnews.com

 

[DrMrLordX]

Banning only Chinese nationals from entering the U.S. made no difference whatsoever when hundreds of thousands of others flew in from China, Asia and Europe since January. Utterly pointless to tout Trump's initial "travel ban" which accomplished nothing.

So you think the travel bans from China and Europe were completely useless? We couldv'e had millions of people moving into and out of the country. We couldn't had extras entering the country to flee the pandemic, bringing the disease with them as asymptomatic carriers. And I'll repeat: that was the ONLY legal tool in the President's shed. He did it too late for my tastes, and he still got slammed for it anyway (at least when banning travel from China; nobody seemed to mind much when he banned travel from Europe).

I didn't read all the post leading up to the one I responded to. This thread is very busy and I haven't kept up. Why exactly did you bring up "that book?" And by "that book" I presume you're talking about Grapes of Wrath?

Yes, I meant Grapes of Wrath. It was to show to another poster here that Americans can and have engaged in subsistence-level agriculture in the past. Frankly I'm floored that anyone thinks the American people have never gotten dirt under their nails before.

It's pretty sad. Here we have an opportunity to slow down and reflect on what's really important in life... and it's work?!

Hate to break it to you, but work is really important for a lot of people. It pays the bills and keeps "the economy" running. Covid-19 should provide a moment to reflect how important it is for people to get up each day and do something substantially beneficial for themselves and their community each day. And often times, that means a lot of repetitive work!

If you feel like "the system being rigged against them" is the reason WHY people have to work each day, P&N is ---> that way. Outside of the realm of partisan bickering, real people have to work for a living. If they don't, everyone suffers.

 

[CZroe]

Banning only Chinese nationals from entering the U.S. made no difference whatsoever when hundreds of thousands of others flew in from China, Asia and Europe since January. Utterly pointless to tout Trump's initial "travel ban" which accomplished nothing. Now if you want to rewrite history so that POTUS locked down all ports of entry in early January, then yeah we'd have far fewer COVID-19 cases.

To be clear, what does the WHO advocate for? Instead of an international travel ban, you screen the heck out of ALL arriving passengers and strictly enforce on-site quarantine. So ironically Trump decided to do a little bit of the action that barely works, and ignore the actions that successful countries have employed at their international airports.

Our NIH found that local control measures are more effective than travel restrictions:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1450020/

This isn't the first time you've said that the restrictions effectively only blocked Chinese nationals, which simply isn't true. Read it yourself:

Proclamation—Suspension of Entry as Immigrants and Nonimmigrants of Certain Additional Persons Who Pose a Risk of Transmitting 2019 Novel Coronavirus | The White House

On January 31, 2020, I issued Proclamation 9984 (Suspension of Entry as Immigrants and Nonimmigrants of Persons Who Pose a Risk of Transmitting 2019 Novel

www.whitehouse.gov

Stop saying the travel restrictions only applied to Chinese nationals. They applied to ALL foreign nationals who had recently traveled in the region. The travel ban that only considers nationality is China's own, where they stopped allowing all non-Chinese ("foreigners"). Get it straight.

Stop saying the travel restrictions "accomplished nothing" when scientists and doctors agree that it demonstrably delayed the spread. In no uncertain terms Dr. Fauci said this in front of the entire world. It's astoundingly ignorant to go on claiming that it "did nothing."

What bearing does a 2006 NIH conclusion regarding the efficacy of travel restrictions for a completely different virus have? Even if they were talking about the same virus, it doesn't conclude what you assume it concludes. It concludes that one thing is better than another thing when they aren't mutually-exclusive.

Americans who returned from restricted areas in early March were required under the force of law to self-isolate? Besides the ones flown back by Dept. of State and quarantined, I must have missed that. LOL I'm not imagining if American citizens were barred reentry. The point is that short of literally grounding all international flights early, any highly targeted and belated bans are ineffectual.

By the time the U.S. banned travel from western Europe, it was way too late. Then mere days later, he banned the UK as well. So not sure why it's "obvious" that flights from the UK were still OK. The virus was already here in the U.S. spreading in several states.

Just what do you think happened to Americans at the international airports that began early screening months ago? If they had symptoms they were tested and asked to self-quarantine. If they tested positive then they were asked to isolate. Same as anyone testing positive today except there also would have been a stronger effort made to do contact tracing in the early days. You're the one putting way too much faith in the ability of screeners to stop a virus that clearly has asymptompatic spreaders. Heck, even the flu has asymptomatic super-spreaders, which is why that NIH study is so short-sighted.

How did travel restrictions help when the virus was already here? By restricting travel where the outbreaks were known/large, you slow the influx of new outbreaks in your own country. Obviously. It's a lot easier to deal with the ones that are already here when you don't start new outbreaks all over by being stupid. "Herp derp: The virus is already here so why stop travel?" is about as stupid as "The virus is already here so why bother social distancing?"

The WHO works for and is funded by its member nations. Is it susceptible to political forces? Absolutely. Does it have a cabal of operators who scheme up ways to boost China and fool the West? Highly debatable, and something you present no clear proof of. But I honestly don't follow the WHO closely. Read yesterday's NYT piece, which explains how and why WHO tries to remain apolitical.

Again, how is pouting and taking our ball home going to fix the problem of the WHO kowtowing to China? It won't. It's obviously scapegoating, which is what POTUS does.

...sooooo "apolitical."

This entire conversation is happening because:
...they are clearly NOT the apolitical international health authority they claim to be
...they are not the apolitical international health authority everyone assumed/believed they were
...they are not the apolitical international health authority the media led us to believe
As you can see, the sentiment in the NYT article is what we are disagreeing with. It's what WHO is supposed to be, not what it is proving to be. I wouldn't link to a statement where the WHO claims to be apolitical in order to counter the argument that they are political despite their claims. That's what's in dispute here. The NYT article is in the same boat.

IIRC JAMA published an article of 126 things in Taiwan's action plan that they did to squelch SARS-CoV-2. I guess I'm going to take the word of public health experts on travel bans rather than your apparent claim that a single factor explains why Taiwan has succeeded. Even if a true/full travel ban does help, that's not what Trump ordered.

You claim to be accepting the word of 'health experts" regarding 'travel bans" except you aren't taking the word of public health experts who have asserted that the travel restrictions were effective at slowing the spread.

There isn't info on the two fatalities. It probably wasn't the drug which has a good safety profile. Anti-virals are more useful when they are given earlier so if someone with severe disease is already progressed too far it might be of less utility for some of those patients. We still need the comparison to controls and the data from the moderate severity group too.

He's not saying it's the drug. He's saying that's worse than the establish CFR.

Out of 113 severe cases? Sounds pretty good to me.

Because a 1.8% fatality rate is worse than the virus is known to have. Maybe this was with a subset of higher-risk patients with a higher than 2% fatality rate but you'd expect them to make that clear before touting this as any kind of success.