NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

[Kaido]

I noticed that the gas stations started putting up "you have to wear masks, our employees get fined if you don't" (it was initially "masks are mandated" which people seemed to mostly ignore). After that, big uptick in mask wearing, although I think that partially preceded the signs, but not sure. I do wonder if they might have gotten fined since they definitely were not actually enforcing people wearing masks a week or so back.

Have family members that work for Wal-Mart, guess better late than never. Will be interesting to see how much its enforced. The ones down here have cones directing people entrance/exit with an employee (who I assume says mask required now).

Stopped at Walmart the other day. The number of people who were wearing masks but had their noses out was amazing. I'm calling it the Mustache Tuck from now on.

 

[CZroe]

I'm very curious to see how this is going to work out legal-wise, since Walmart & Sam's Club now requires masks nationwide:

A Simple Step to Help Keep You Safe: Walmart and Sam’s Club Require Shoppers to Wear Face Coverings

From the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, our focus and priority has been and continues to be on the health and safety of our associates, members and customers. As the number of confirmed cases has spiked in communities…

corporate.walmart.com

What does Wal-mart and Sam's Club have to do with anything? They can still mandate masks in their stores if they want to.

Brian Kemp only prevented cities and counties from mandating them within their own cities and counties. He actually claims to be encouraging people to wear masks.

I think it was a bad move but you seem to think it was something MUCH more than it was if you thought it has any effect on businesses requiring masks.

 

[Denly]

Not sure why people against wearing mask - unless you have a medical condition - everyone looks 10x prettier and younger with it.

 

[rh71]

^ not to mention you don't have to brush your teeth or pick your nose clean anymore.

 

[darkswordsman17]

^ not to mention you don't have to brush your teeth or pick your nose clean anymore.

Eh, I'd say it makes brushing more important (easier to smell your own breath) but otherwise yeah.

Plus you get to dress like a fucking ninja, or plenty of video game/movie characters.

Stopped at Walmart the other day. The number of people who were wearing masks but had their noses out was amazing. I'm calling it the Mustache Tuck from now on.

I've noticed that some but thankfully its pretty rare. Did see someone that should've known better (nurse or something, I can't recall, but I remember immediately thinking "I know for damn sure you know that's not how to properly wear a mask").

 

[K1052]

While I'm not anti-vaxx, I am not eager to be among the first patients to get a vaccine. We don't know if another Thalidomide type of situation is going to happen a few years down the road, due to the speed at which the vaccine is being developed. Granted, we have better tools now, but still...yikes. But then it will boil down to a question of risk of death vs. risk of some possible future problems from the vaccine, which it may or may not have.

It's unlikely that some major adverse effect from a vaccine is going to be discovered years down the line. Negative effects are going to show up in trial. What bears watching is quality control from a crash program to make billions of doses that have to be stored and handled correctly, a difficult but certainly doable challenge. Neither of the RNA vaccines induced any life threatening effects in their phase 1s and reportedly the safety profile of Oxford's viral vector is good so far.

 

[Kaido]

Dang. Awful headlines.

More than 77,000 new cases of coronavirus were reported in the US on Thursday, the most ever | CNN

For the first time, the numbers of coronavirus cases reported in the United States passed 77,000, according to a tally by Johns Hopkins University.

www.cnn.com

 

[Kaido]

What does Wal-mart and Sam's Club have to do with anything? They can still mandate masks in their stores if they want to.

Brian Kemp only prevented cities and counties from mandating them within their own cities and counties. He actually claims to he encouraging people to wear masks.

I think it was a bad move but you seem to think it was something MUCH more than it was if you thought it has any effect on businesses requiring masks.

Partly because mixed messages leads to stupid disputes:

Michigan man killed by police after stabbing man in mask argument, police say

A man was shot and killed by police after allegedly stabbing a 77-year-old man who asked him to wear a mask inside a store.

abc7chicago.com

Particularly when you have a business involved that is doing their own implementation:

Bayonne: Bus driver left brain dead after being 'attacked over face masks'

The driver in France was set upon by people who had no tickets and refused to wear face masks.

www.bbc.com

Because then people get all emotional about it:

Watch: McDonald's customer's savage attack on manager over face mask comment

The manager gave him a friendly reminder. Moments later fists were thrown.

www.nzherald.co.nz

And immaturity starts happening:

Councillor says he is victim of hate crime after tyres slashed

Richard Leppington says he wants police to treat the incident as a hate crime

www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk

And then things get out of hand:

Crowd attacks police ticketing woman for not wearing mask | The Jerusalem Post

www.jpost.com

And bad things happen:

French bus driver brain-dead in attack after telling passengers to wear masks

Five people in custody following assault where victim lost consciousness after being repeatedly punched.

www.scmp.com

Again:

Indian man attacks female employee who asked he wear a face mask

A local government official in India beat a female employee with a chair leg after yanking her to the floor by her hair — all because she asked him to wear a mask, according to reports Tuesday.

www.foxnews.com

And again:

Hugo's Tacos Announces Closing Due to Customer Attacks Over Masks, Including Throwing of Objects at Staff

Hugo’s Tacos announced Sunday that both of its locations, Studio City and Atwater Village, are closing due to constant conflicts over guests refusing to wear masks. In a note posted on the website and on Twitter, the restaurant said that staff had been “harassed, called names, and had objects...

www.nbclosangeles.com

Mixed messaging from leadership = mixed results. Our understand of how the virus works has increased over time, and while masks aren't a 100% solution, they do seem to get pretty good results:

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

The direction is quite strange:

The move, despite neighboring states like Alabama requiring masks in public, voided mask mandates in 15 local jurisdictions in the Peach State where they had been implemented. While outlawing mask mandates, Kemp's executive order "strongly" encourages all residents and visitors in Georgia to "wear face coverings as practicable while outside their homes or place of residence, except when eating, drinking or exercising outdoors."

To me, the takeaway message is "Hey, we're not going to mandate it, despite rising infections & deaths, despite the science & statistics, despite testing shortages where we estimate the total number of infected is way higher...but we'd strongly encourage you to wear them." This is like Trump saying he won't wear a mask...there are enough people out there who will accept (1) leadership's actions at face-value, and (2) look what what they're saying vs. what they're doing..."hey it's bad, but not bad enough that we really care to advertise or enforce it ourselves". Japan, which stands at less than 1,000 for the entire nation, and New Zealand, which clocks in at just 22 deaths, have taken different approaches, which, on paper, seem to be working pretty well.

America is going to be stuck with COVID for a long, long time, I think.

 

[Kaido]

It looks like ventilation plays a key role:

Japan has long accepted COVID's airborne spread, and scientists say ventilation is key

It took pressure from 239 scientists for the WHO to even admit the new coronavirus may spread via aerosols, but in Japan, they're focusing on solutions.

www.cbsnews.com

Which, in theory, would explain why NYC got hit so hard:

Density Is New York City’s Big ‘Enemy’ in the Coronavirus Fight (Published 2020)

New York is more crowded than any large city in the country. That helps explain why it is the U.S. epicenter of the outbreak.

www.nytimes.com

But the science (currently) says otherwise:

Study: Urban Density Not Linked to Higher Coronavirus Infection Rates — and Is Linked to Lower COVID-19 Death Rates | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

A new study suggests that denser places, assumed by many to be more conducive to the spread of the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, are not linked to higher infection rates.

www.jhsph.edu

It's amazing that COVID started last year & there's still so much we don't know!

 

[thestrangebrew1]

Can the current administration really cut the CDC out of data collection? Doesn't the public have the right to that data? Are we going to see the numbers magically go down next week?

 

[Ichinisan]

. . . I guess. If you're talking brief encounters on the street, maybe. If you're shoulder-to-shoulder with the guy at work for 8+ hours then unless it's N95, it ain't really doing anything except covering your employer's posterior.

...and still reducing the initial viral load, even from the inevitable / unavoidable exposures.

 

[K1052]

Colorado gov expected to issue a mask mandate today.

 

[destrekor]

While I'm not anti-vaxx, I am not eager to be among the first patients to get a vaccine. We don't know if another Thalidomide type of situation is going to happen a few years down the road, due to the speed at which the vaccine is being developed. Granted, we have better tools now, but still...yikes. But then it will boil down to a question of risk of death vs. risk of some possible future problems from the vaccine, which it may or may not have.

I don't think a Thalidomide-like situation is what we need to worry about with inoculations for infectious diseases. If it did, that's one hell of a fuck up for a pharma company to let slip some active pharmacological compound into vaccines.
No, I think the main worry is the two ends of the vaccine spectrum: it either doesn't work, or it accidentally gives you the infection it was trying to stop. Depending upon the disease that's trying to be stopped, that can be a very dangerous thing to happen to batches of product (contaminated or potent enough to infect) if the virus is, for instance, poliovirus. but also quite bad still for severe influenza strains, measles, and especially smallpox, among many others. Well, I guess two other concerns that should be noted are whether there are any contaminants or other viruses/bacteria that were able to slip in, or is it somehow causing an increased risk of certain serious side effects like GBS.

Seems to me certain viruses, on the nature of the virus itself, produce a higher risk of GBS whether directly through infection or indirectly through inoculation. But I don't have the numbers comparing GBS rates for the IM vaccine (dead) and nasal (attenuated live), I'd like to find that figure out at some point. That would point to whether behavior of viral particles is the concern or whether it's something funky with the protein shape in the immunoglobulins? But I really should get back to work and step back from this distraction.

 

[H T C]

It looks like ventilation plays a key role:

Japan has long accepted COVID's airborne spread, and scientists say ventilation is key

It took pressure from 239 scientists for the WHO to even admit the new coronavirus may spread via aerosols, but in Japan, they're focusing on solutions.

www.cbsnews.com

Which, in theory, would explain why NYC got hit so hard:

Density Is New York City’s Big ‘Enemy’ in the Coronavirus Fight (Published 2020)

New York is more crowded than any large city in the country. That helps explain why it is the U.S. epicenter of the outbreak.

www.nytimes.com

But the science (currently) says otherwise:

Study: Urban Density Not Linked to Higher Coronavirus Infection Rates — and Is Linked to Lower COVID-19 Death Rates | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

A new study suggests that denser places, assumed by many to be more conducive to the spread of the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, are not linked to higher infection rates.

www.jhsph.edu

It's amazing that COVID started last year & there's still so much we don't know!

That 1st piece from Japan is very interesting but i wonder what that means for air travels.

 

[DrMrLordX]

...and still reducing the initial viral load, even from the inevitable / unavoidable exposures.

Not by any meaningful amount. If you put people in those paper "surgical" masks on a shop floor by the hundreds or thousands and allow asymptomatic carriers in their midst, it will spread.

Masks are mostly a placebo. The real solution was widespread testing of people who have no symptoms. That plus N95s because they're the only thing that actually works.

You can go out in these "mask mandate" states with a bandana and get away with it. Nobody will stop you. Near-0% effectiveness, but nobody cares.

 

[H T C]

Not by any meaningful amount. If you put people in those paper "surgical" masks on a shop floor by the hundreds or thousands and allow asymptomatic carriers in their midst, it will spread.

Masks are mostly a placebo. The real solution was widespread testing of people who have no symptoms. That plus N95s because they're the only thing that actually works.

You can go out in these "mask mandate" states with a bandana and get away with it. Nobody will stop you. Near-0% effectiveness, but nobody cares.

There's a BIG difference between "works better" and "only thing that actually works": those masks aren't called N100 for a reason.

 

[DrMrLordX]

There's a BIG difference between "works better" and "only thing that actually works": those masks aren't called N100 for a reason.

No, I think you are wrong. Look at the nurses and doctors that have to deal with Covid-19 cases, using the best PPE that nearly anyone can get. N95s, face shields, the works. They STILL get sick. Reduced viral load? Check. Still getting sick? Sadly, check. I think the idea of masks reducing viral load and helping people not get "as sick" by introducing virus more-slwoly is probably untrue, and from the evidence I've seen (and experienced firsthand), it's a misrepresentation of the truth. N95 is what "reduces the viral load" better than anything else. It still lets in maybe 1% of the virus that's present in the atmosphere. Should be ideal. It isn't. It gives you a snowball's chance in Hell of being exposed repeatedly to carriers without getting sick at all, but it's not like there's some sliding scale where a little bit more and a little bit more etc. is okay compared to a larger amount. You get sick or you don't. I don't know what the "cut-off" is where you absolutely won't get sick - probably a Haz-mat suit - but N95 is as close as anyone can practically get.

If you are around active cases of Covid-19 and if you are not wearing an N95, I'm just calling it right now: you can wear a mask if it makes you feel good, but if you have that paper mask on around them for hours on end and that mask starts getting damp and shredding along the edges (WHICH IT WILL) then it's only going to make it hard for you to breath. It isn't saving you from a damn thing. Those of us who actually have to go out and be around people and wear these things all know it. We wear them because we're told to do so.

If you have a choice of protection, demand N95 masks AND mandatory testing of everyone in the environment up-front before they enter, and then psuedo-randomized testing of the entire population in rolling groups every 2-3 weeks. That is how you stop Covid-19 in a workplace or a public setting.

 

[CZroe]

Not by any meaningful amount.

Completely incorrect. Merely reducing viral load is "meaningful" even if it didn't prevent a single infection, which it does. The infection can continue spreading though even while severity drops sharply.

Many who would have got a high viral load infection may get a low viral load infection.
Many who would have got a low viral load infection may not get an infection at all.
Many who would have taken weeks to fight it off will fight it off in days.
Many who would require hospitalization will not.
Many who would have died will survive.

The reason this is spreading so easily is because we have no resistance and the virus has a high shed rate even without symptoms. That means an extremely low viral load can result in an infection where it may not be enough for other typical respiratory viruses (endemic influenza, rhinovirus, endemic coronavirus, etc). Because the viral load required to start an infection is incredibly tiny, anything you do to reduce it further can have a huge effect.

 

[H T C]

No, I think you are wrong. Look at the nurses and doctors that have to deal with Covid-19 cases, using the best PPE that nearly anyone can get. N95s, face shields, the works. They STILL get sick. Reduced viral load? Check. Still getting sick? Sadly, check. I think the idea of masks reducing viral load and helping people not get "as sick" by introducing virus more-slwoly is probably untrue, and from the evidence I've seen (and experienced firsthand), it's a misrepresentation of the truth. N95 is what "reduces the viral load" better than anything else. It still lets in maybe 1% of the virus that's present in the atmosphere. Should be ideal. It isn't. It gives you a snowball's chance in Hell of being exposed repeatedly to carriers without getting sick at all, but it's not like there's some sliding scale where a little bit more and a little bit more etc. is okay compared to a larger amount. You get sick or you don't. I don't know what the "cut-off" is where you absolutely won't get sick - probably a Haz-mat suit - but N95 is as close as anyone can practically get.

If you are around active cases of Covid-19 and if you are not wearing an N95, I'm just calling it right now: you can wear a mask if it makes you feel good, but if you have that paper mask on around them for hours on end and that mask starts getting damp and shredding along the edges (WHICH IT WILL) then it's only going to make it hard for you to breath. It isn't saving you from a damn thing. Those of us who actually have to go out and be around people and wear these things all know it. We wear them because we're told to do so.

If you have a choice of protection, demand N95 masks AND mandatory testing of everyone in the environment up-front before they enter, and then psuedo-randomized testing of the entire population in rolling groups every 2-3 weeks. That is how you stop Covid-19 in a workplace or a public setting.

And what can't nurses and doctors do they all other people can?

Medical staff get infected because of two things:
1 - masks aren't 100% effective: best masks are rated 95% effective
2 - they have direct contact with infected patients: no social distancing for medical staff

The lack of 100% effectiveness from masks combined with the fact medical staff have direct contact with MULTIPLE infected patients SEVERAL times a day increases the odds that the 5% of NON effectiveness from the masks gets bypassed by the virus.

While the rest of the populace can "get by" with regular cloth masks, the medical staff cannot.

 

[CZroe]

And what can't nurses and doctors do they all other people can?

Medical staff get infected because of two things:
1 - masks aren't 100% effective: best masks are rated 95% effective
2 - they have direct contact with infected patients: no social distancing for medical staff

The lack of 100% effectiveness from masks combined with the fact medical staff have direct contact with MULTIPLE infected patients SEVERAL times a day increases the odds that the 5% of NON effectiveness from the masks gets bypassed by the virus.

While the rest of the populace can "get by" with regular cloth masks, the medical staff cannot.

...and also he fails to show that the severity of their infections were the same as they would be without the masks. They also get them from family, grocery stores, etc too, just like everyone else, and then there's his bizarre focus on random testing.

Random testing just let's us see what's happening. Even if we could test 100% of the population all at once (the OPPOSITE of "random") it wouldn't do much good now that the pandemic has escalated to the point where it isn't feasible to do contact tracing and force positives to isolate, so not sure what he's hoping for with random testing.

Never heard anyone suggest random testing as a way to find and deal with asymptomatics. That's lunacy. Though we can obviously ask asymptomatics found that way to isolate, that obviously doesn't solve the problem with asymptomatics out there who weren't tested... it just helps us estimate how many there are. It gives us a picture, not a path.

 

[Ichinisan]

Not by any meaningful amount. If you put people in those paper "surgical" masks on a shop floor by the hundreds or thousands and allow asymptomatic carriers in their midst, it will spread.

Masks are mostly a placebo. The real solution was widespread testing of people who have no symptoms. That plus N95s because they're the only thing that actually works.

You can go out in these "mask mandate" states with a bandana and get away with it. Nobody will stop you. Near-0% effectiveness, but nobody cares.

You are simply wrong.

One of those droplets stopped by a mask could contain several orders of magnitude more viruses than you would get from the airborne viruses that get around it. The initial viral load absolutely does matter.

 

[Ichinisan]

No, I think you are wrong. Look at the nurses and doctors that have to deal with Covid-19 cases, using the best PPE that nearly anyone can get. N95s, face shields, the works. They STILL get sick. Reduced viral load? Check. Still getting sick? Sadly, check. I think the idea of masks reducing viral load and helping people not get "as sick" by introducing virus more-slwoly is probably untrue, and from the evidence I've seen (and experienced firsthand), it's a misrepresentation of the truth. N95 is what "reduces the viral load" better than anything else. It still lets in maybe 1% of the virus that's present in the atmosphere. Should be ideal. It isn't. It gives you a snowball's chance in Hell of being exposed repeatedly to carriers without getting sick at all, but it's not like there's some sliding scale where a little bit more and a little bit more etc. is okay compared to a larger amount. You get sick or you don't. I don't know what the "cut-off" is where you absolutely won't get sick - probably a Haz-mat suit - but N95 is as close as anyone can practically get.

If you are around active cases of Covid-19 and if you are not wearing an N95, I'm just calling it right now: you can wear a mask if it makes you feel good, but if you have that paper mask on around them for hours on end and that mask starts getting damp and shredding along the edges (WHICH IT WILL) then it's only going to make it hard for you to breath. It isn't saving you from a damn thing. Those of us who actually have to go out and be around people and wear these things all know it. We wear them because we're told to do so.

If you have a choice of protection, demand N95 masks AND mandatory testing of everyone in the environment up-front before they enter, and then psuedo-randomized testing of the entire population in rolling groups every 2-3 weeks. That is how you stop Covid-19 in a workplace or a public setting.

I haven't finished reading your post, but you're clearly off-base if you think reducing viral load is only to keep you from getting infected.

No. It can dramatically improve your prospects of recovery because your body can be responding to the virus sooner as the virus replicates to a full-blown infection. When the virus population reaches a particular point, it will always be a good thing for your immune system to be further along in learning to recognize it and developing an immune response. The immune response will have a better chance of eradicating the virus before the virus population reaches a point that your immune system over-reacts and kills you.

 

[K1052]

Arkansas governor orders masks to be worn in public.

 

[K1052]

Ducey in AZ makes no commitment on schools, indicates he plans to keep most restrictions for the foreseeable future, sending 5 masks to anyone over 65 who requests them, and will extend eviction moratorium through the end of October.

Some signs of plateauing in the cases and hospitalization data so the re-closing a few weeks ago could be starting to show up.

 

[Svnla]

Interesting read. Blood types and the virus.

Why do we have different blood types — and do they make us more vulnerable to Covid-19? | CNN

Most humans fall into one of four blood groups — A, B, AB or O. Ordinarily, your blood type makes little difference in your life except if you need to have a blood transfusion — and now, if you have Covid-19.

www.cnn.com