NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
There are some places in the world where bats are consumed, but it's fake news that bats were consumed at Wuhan's Huanan Seafood market.
Sorry, but that's just not true. "Some places" does include Chinese wet markets.

People don't generally eat bats just like Chinese people don't generally eat dog and many Chinese would argue that it's not true to say they eat dog... yet you can find dog meat advertised publicly in any Chinese city even where it's illegal. These are often restaurants, in case you thought they catered to people who owned tigers or something.

There are still people who literally capture wild raccoon dogs, roadside turtles, and whatever else then run to the closest wet market to sell. Bats are a little bit harder to come by but the compulsion to eat exotic or wild animals is part of TCM culture and the idea that you gain chi from eating it.

They've out-right found lab workers selling discarded lab animals at these Chinese wet markets... even bats though it's usually rats and pigs.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,402
8,038
136

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Sorry, but that's just not true. "Some places" does include Chinese wet markets.

People don't generally eat bats just like Chinese people don't generally eat dog and many Chinese would argue that it's not true to say they eat dog... yet you can find dog meat advertised publicly in any Chinese city even where it's illegal. These are often restaurants, in case you thought they catered to people who owned tigers or something.

There are still people who literally capture wild raccoon dogs, roadside turtles, and whatever else then run to the closest wet market to sell. Bats are a little bit harder to come by but the compulsion to eat exotic or wild animals is part of TCM culture and the idea that you gain chi from eating it.

They've out-right found lab workers selling discarded lab animals at these Chinese wet markets... even bats though it's usually rats and pigs.

Heck, they even have festival(s) to celebrate eating dogs (10,000 will be eaten) and other animals such as cats and such. No need to advertise. Wide open for the public to consume.

 
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manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
10,913
2,060
126
And how do we actually know THIS isn't the "fake-news" hmmm?

;)


EDIT: I will concede the word "seafood" does hint in that general direction

:p
The videos that were widely circulated on social media showing consumption of bat soup weren't even filmed in China, and were not filmed last fall. While I don't dispute the Chinese people are very well known for eating just about anything, CZroe is disseminating fake news. No experts I've read have suggested it was consumption of bats in Huanan market that was the initial transfer of SARS-CoV-2 to humans. It's Tom Cotton level horseshit to state otherwise as fact.

Certainly, the virus' origin was probably bats and one theory is bats to pangolins (but this is far from proven).
 

Printed Circuit Bro

Senior member
Jan 21, 2020
411
84
61
The CCP's power hinges on controlling the security apparatus and the military, same as in any other dictatorship. The only communism in the CCP is in the name.
False, as shown by their control over natural resources, everything being "publicly owned" by the government, their class system reinforced by their social credit system, etc.

China most certainly is communist.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,199
12,027
126
www.anyf.ca
You know, if your sentence starts with this, you should probably just end it there unless you're willing to find the answer. Don't be a vector for misinformation.

Regardless, that's how it works for some things, they don't directly kill you, but enabled the thing that did kill you to get the killing done.

Well it's still information nonetheless. I just don't want it to be used as official because it's not. It does not mean it's not true it just means it's not verified. I don't save every single article I read just so I can relink to it. This is a new thing for the world, there are lot of unknowns there is no sin against speculating as long as you don't try to say it's actually a 100% fact. It still gives things to ponder on.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,578
1,741
126
I had to go to walmart yesterday, luckily tons of wipes and sanitizer to use but as always i kept as much distance between me and others as possible. Food wise good till next month so no more of that store. I just got paid so i would need to order masks online . I hardly go out so a pack of like 30 would last me 5 months easily.

Yep. I got my rent paid. Waiting on the stimulus check. Could go for at least 6 months inside if it gets really bad. I'll eat nothing but good old fashion stick to your ribs oats with honey and cinnamon. Got my movies and video games to ease the solitude. Just keeping an eye on the streets below from my window. You never know...
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,055
12,245
136
Well it's still information nonetheless. I just don't want it to be used as official because it's not. It does not mean it's not true it just means it's not verified. I don't save every single article I read just so I can relink to it. This is a new thing for the world, there are lot of unknowns there is no sin against speculating as long as you don't try to say it's actually a 100% fact. It still gives things to ponder on.
Red Squirrel molests goats is information nonetheless. It's not official, just something to ponder on. I'm not saying it's actually a 100% fact.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
68,852
26,644
136
False, as shown by their control over natural resources, everything being "publicly owned" by the government, their class system reinforced by their social credit system, etc.

China most certainly is communist.
If it weren't for all the private companies in China, I'd be inclined to agree with you.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,199
12,027
126
www.anyf.ca
Red Squirrel molests goats is information nonetheless. It's not official, just something to ponder on. I'm not saying it's actually a 100% fact.
Now you're just being ridiculous. I know you have some weird problem with me and always like to get on my case, but fuck off. You're back on ignore.
 
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Printed Circuit Bro

Senior member
Jan 21, 2020
411
84
61
If it weren't for all the private companies in China, I'd be inclined to agree with you.
...that rent the equipment from the government and pay the government extremely heavy taxes?

Take the lab equipment necessary to manufacture fentanyl. One company "rents" the equipment from the government to churn out fentanyl. When some companies go bust or are exposed to be selling to the black market, the company is shuttered and that equipment is then "rented" to another company instead to take their place. If the company doesn't do what the government says, or the CEO says things that violate China's social policy etc, the equipment is recalled by the government and "rented" to someone else leaving that company to shutter and die.

The government owns the equipment.

The concept of "private company" in China is a joke.

It's curious why you're so desperate to paint China as anything other than communist.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,055
12,245
136
Now you're just being ridiculous. I know you have some weird problem with me and always like to get on my case, but fuck off. You're back on ignore.
I'm not the only one that's called you out on your fascination with spouting off inaccurate information as though it were fact (on multiple occasions, I've seen other people do it).
I don't have a "weird" problem with you, I just think you're a strangely studious moron.
I am proud to have earned a "fuck off" from you, I don't see you curse often. I hope it felt good (not that you'll see this) :)
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,781
1,386
126
As has been noted, it's impossible to remove the political from the epidemiological aspects of this pandemic. [/QUOTE]


Yeah I can really see how this it impossible this literary treasure from this thread....

Dude, Wm Gates is infinitely smarter than Don the dick Trump.


And your statement above: "are we supposed to act at every prediction that is made?" WTF have you been doing with your life? The end credits of Contagion stated for all to see "It's not a question of if but when." I knew it. You blew it off. Now who's right? Who was right to be prepared? Who fucked up by not being prepared? Our so called POTUS for one.

And now we are gonna base our preparedness based on movies...

OH NOES!!!!! Armegeddon said the same exact thing...when are you going to get your panties in wad because we aren't preparing the inevitable asteroid hitting the earth?
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
The videos that were widely circulated on social media showing consumption of bat soup weren't even filmed in China, and were not filmed last fall. While I don't dispute the Chinese people are very well known for eating just about anything, CZroe is disseminating fake news. No experts I've read have suggested it was consumption of bats in Huanan market that was the initial transfer of SARS-CoV-2 to humans. It's Tom Cotton level horseshit to state otherwise as fact.

Certainly, the virus' origin was probably bats and one theory is bats to pangolins (but this is far from proven).

You are the one who limited my broad statement about wet markets to that specific wet market. Furthermore, I had said that it was their proximity and not their consumption that enables it. I went on to say that their proximity was driven by demand for consumption, but as we saw in the Australian 60-Minutes report on a Bangkok "wet market" that isn't always the case (most of those were intended as exotic pets).

Now, China themselves pointed the finger at the Huanan Seafood market so I ask you: Who thinks we got it from a fish or a shrimp?

I never for a second thought those videos of people eating frogs and bats came from Wuhan or the Huanan Seafood Market and never made any sort of commentary on that. Still, as you know, wet markets are unregulated. That's part of the problem. Sticking "seafood" in the name doesn't do anything to keep some unscrupulous person from selling pork or dog or civet or bat there. Speaking of unscrupulous people, China already has a huge problem with other labs selling their lab animals and expirimental byproducts at local markets when they are supposed to dispose of them. In January they just sentenced biologist Li Ning for that after he made nearly 1.5 million USD that way.

Furthermore, I'm not convinced that it came from the wet market at all, so far be it from me to spread fake news that it did. I was only discussing how it was possible and I stand by it. On the other hand, official Chinese state media wants us to assume it came from the Huanan Seafood Market:

"All the evidence shows the virus similar to a bat coronavirus and Chinese experts say it most likely originated at the Wuhan Huanan seafood market."

They talk about Li Ning there too.

So, yes, despite some Western media carrying China's water regarding "no bats at the Huanan wet market," it's still very possible. Unless you think a fish can carry a mamilian respiratory virus there is an obvious contradiction here. It takes severe cognitive-dissonance to say otherwise.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
And now we are gonna base our preparedness based on movies...

OH NOES!!!!! Armegeddon said the same exact thing...when are you going to get your panties in wad because we aren't preparing the inevitable asteroid hitting the earth?
Or aliens challenging our professionals and cartoons to a high-stakes basketball game with the fate of the planet in play! ;)
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
10,913
2,060
126
@CZroe come on, you specifically said bats for consumption. And kept insinuating that Chinese eating bats was the first transmission of SARS-CoV-2. When asked why he's peddling "conspiracy" theories, Senator Tom Cotton rebutted with the "it's certainly possible" excuse. Yes, since we don't know the first transmission for a fact, any of many theories is possible. Some more plausible than others.

If you have any evidence that bats were consumed at Huanan market, by all means provide it to us. Read your own last few posts, don't walk back the argument now. I never insinuated the Huanan market only sells seafood, that's just the name of the place. Like I already conceded, the Chinese are well known for eating anything that moves.

If all you're trying to suggest is that zoonotic transfer of SARS-CoV-2 to humans was from bats to some unknown other animal (meat), then YES that's exactly what experts are claiming. That's a different statement from humans eating bats at an unnamed Chinese wet market. And I agree, from what we know of the places, they are filthy and disgusting beyond our belief.
 

thestrangebrew1

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2011
3,430
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gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
@CZroe come on, you specifically said bats for consumption.
No. I clearly supported what destrekor was saying that the proximity to people and other animals in a wet market is often how viruses jump between species and reminded him that the reason for their close proximity was still largely because of demand for consumption.

There need be no bat consumption for zoonotic transfer.
The thing is, those wet markets are full of live pigs and birds and pangolins and bats... for consumption. They are in much closer proximity to each other and to humans than they ever would be naturally.
See?

And kept insinuating that Chinese eating bats was the first transmission of SARS-CoV-2.
I did not say that patient zero got sick by eating a bat. destrekor and I weren't even specifically talking about SARS-CoV-2, with plenty of references to "eventual zoonotic transfer" and how often these transfers happen. It baffles me that you could have even thought we were talking specifically about SARS-CoV-2 from what I said.

I said zoonotic transfer can happen with other animals or even humans due to proximity. I said that proximity in wet markets was driven by demand and that the demand was largely from consumption. In other words: It didn't have to come directly from eating bats for that behavior to have some bearing. It's that behavior that causes vendors to keep live bats near pangolins, civet cats, chickens, pigs, etc.

Not only did I never insinuate that happened in Wuhan, I went on to lay out alternative scenarios that don't involve eating bats, including researchers:
Also, the reassortment is just as likely to happen in a person that gets it directly from an animal while also infected with a human virus in which case it is much more likely to gain a trait that allows it to spread person-to-person (human and animal virus infect the same cell; out pops a novel combination of the two).

Works the other way around too... a researcher studying bat coronaviruses could, through handling, accidentally infect the bat with a human coronavirus. That virus reassorts with the bat's coronavirus to give the bat coronavirus just what it needs to spread from person-to-person and, thus, a new human-transmissable bat coronavirus is born.
See? "...bat coronaviruses"

When asked why he's peddling "conspiracy" theories, Senator Tom Cotton rebutted with the "it's certainly possible" excuse. Yes, since we don't know the first transmission for a fact, any of many theories is possible. Some more plausible than others.

If you have any evidence that bats were consumed at Huanan market, by all means provide it to us. Read your own last few posts, don't walk back the argument now. I never insinuated the Huanan market only sells seafood, that's just the name of the place. Like I already conceded, the Chinese are well known for eating anything that moves.

If all you're trying to suggest is that zoonotic transfer of SARS-CoV-2 to humans was from bats to some unknown other animal (meat), then YES that's exactly what experts are claiming. That's a different statement from humans eating bats at an unnamed Chinese wet market. And I agree, from what we know of the places, they are filthy and disgusting beyond our belief.
I don't know why you keep bringing up Tom Cotton. I never said patient zero ate bats. I never said it was a lab accident. I never said it was a bio weapon. I wasn't even talking about "it." Before you interjected and mischaracterized what I said, all I did was tell destrekor that there were more possibilities/scenarios. You interpreted what I said 100% backwards and made a knee-jerk response about SARS-CoV-2 and that specific wet market that neither of us were talking about. We were talking about how zoonotic transfer can happen in general, past, present, and future.

...but if you insist on forcing me to discuss how this is relevant to SARS-CoV-2 even more: Many official Chinese sources say it was from the wet market and it was likely from bats. Some Chinese sources, such as the report from South China University Technical Institute, go even further and point to the lab 280 meters away from the market. They can both be true, actually, especially if it's another case of lab animals being sold at local markets. Heck, they can both be total BS, since the person they considered to be patient zero had no contact with the seafood market. May not even be the real patient zero. My entire point with destrekor was that we might be too narrow when discussing possibilities even as they relate to consumption vs. proximity.

Now, China temporarily banned the consumption of wildlife and cracked down on labs to prevent the sale/mishandling of waste animals AFTER the outbreak. They also made an example out of Dr. Li Ning (12 year sentence handed down in January). Obviously, they can see the possibilities and danger of allowing this to continue whether or not they believe something similar happened here. I see no reason why we can't discuss the possibility of this kind of thing creating new outbreaks.

I'm glad we could clear this up.
 
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