Mythbusters to take on "the plane and the treadmill" conundrum?

[randay]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

The treadmill doesnt match the thrust of the engines, it only matches the wheels. So therefore it accelerates infinitely until it causes the airplane to move backwards infinitely until the airplane takes off. /thread.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

The treadmill doesnt match the thrust of the engines, it only matches the wheels. So therefore it accelerates infinitely until it moves the airplane to move backwards infinitely until the airplane takes off. /thread.

You pass ESL?

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

Garth, the thurst on the jets moves the plane via the wheels, nothing else. if the treadmill counters the movement of the wheels, the plane is standing still. therefore, no forward movement, no lift, unless Mugs farts on the wings. LOL.

OMG.

The jets do not move the plane via it's wheels. The wheels are there to eliminate friction between the ground and the plane. The jets, via there thrust, move the plane. Keep in mind what the definition of thrust is.

NASA defines thrust as, and I quote: "The force of flight that pushes a plane forward. The engine provides the thrust for flight."

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: smack Down

Would you like a cookie for being able to move a car on a treadmill.

No, I would like you to acknowledge that this is precisely analogous to the jet engines pushing the plane.

That really isn't something that is hard.

It seems to be for you.

Now try moving said car on a treadmill that will increase its speed to prevent forward motion?

I quote myself from earlier in th thread, thusly, and like so...

I think it is clear that MasonLuke has misunderstood the stipulations of the problem. He seems to begin with the assumption that the treadmill will move in the opposite direction with whatever speed is necessary to make the plane stand still.

This is not the case, however. The treadmill moves at the same speed as the plane but in the reverse direction. Consequently, the wheels will need to rotate twice as fast to cover the distance the plane would ordinarily travel plus the "pseudo-distance" added by the reverse motion of the treadmmill, which will be precisely equal to the distance that the plane would cover in the first place.

In order for the treadmill to force the plane to remain motionless, it would have to move at speeds MUCH greater than the forward speed of the plane. For that matter, if the plane was motionless, how could one conclude that the treadmill was moving at all? The precondition is that the treadmill moves as fast as the plane. If you assume the belt moves, you've already conceded that the plane moves. If you're arguing that the plane stands still, then it can't be due to the movement of the belt. When the plane's speed is zero, so should be the belt's.

If you wish to come into a thread with 800 post at least read a few of them and you will see that this has already been gone over may times.

Besides you where trying to prove that the other reading was invalid. Can you at least add and remember what you are arguing or is that to much to ask?

Of course it has, and my statements have been overwhelmingly confirmed.

Thats why I quoted myself instead of re-writing it.

I notice you didn't even attempt a rebuttal of my statements, either.

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

Theoretically, your theory is fine...if the plane were to get its movement from the wheels. But it does not. The wheels do nothing but prevent the plane from scraping on the ground. The jets push the plane forward via thrust, and when this is done, the wheels spin freely against the ground.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

The treadmill doesnt match the thrust of the engines, it only matches the wheels. So therefore it accelerates infinitely until it moves the airplane to move backwards infinitely until the airplane takes off. /thread.

Assuming your not trolling (I know you are trolling) anyways
F=ma where a = 0
There for net force = 0
There for treadmill matches the force from the engines.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

Theoretically, your theory is fine...if the plane were to get its movement from the wheels. But it does not. The wheels do nothing but prevent the plane from scraping on the ground. The jets push the plane forward via thrust, and when this is done, the wheels spin freely against the ground.

Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

The treadmill doesnt match the thrust of the engines, it only matches the wheels. So therefore it accelerates infinitely until it moves the airplane to move backwards infinitely until the airplane takes off. /thread.

Assuming your not trolling (I know you are trolling) anyways
F=ma where a = 0
There for net force = 0
There for treadmill matches the force from the engines.

The treadmill does not match the force of the engines, it only matches the speed of the wheels. Read the problem again. According to your logic, yes at some point the backwards force will equal the forward thrust of the engine, and then after that it will exceed it, then the airplane starts moving backwards. Faster and faster until there is enough lift for the airplane to take off. air moving over the wings = lift = airplane takes off.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MasonLuke
This is the actual question, i did not write this:


?Imagine a plane is sitting on a massive conveyor belt, as wide and as long as a runway. The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?"



Designed to EXACTLY match the speed of the wheels = no friction.

Kids, be proud of yourselves, you and all the ATOT crew PROVED the plane wont fly.


/thread

As I explained, that formulation of the problem is incoherent. The only reasonable interpretation is that the conveyor matches the speed of the plane. Or, if you want to be pedantic (and it seems you do), it doesn't stipulate the rotational speed of the wheels. The "speed of the wheels" must therefore obviously denote the speed of the axles relative to the ground, which is no different than the ground speed of the plane.

That doesn't also change the fact that the majority of the various formulations of the problem stipulate the coherent scenario of the conveyor matching the plane speed.

You still fail.

:thumbsup:

MasonLuke, you ought to quit being so condescending when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

I'm curious about how old you are. I'm going to guess between 18 and 21?

Edit:
Also, the question you posted asks "Can the plane take off?" Not "Will the plane take off." Even if you assume for whatever reason that the plane cannot summon the power to move itself along the treadmill, the plane CAN take off. As many people have correctly pointed out, it is air moving across the wings that generates lift. You don't need to move relative to the ground in order to get air to move across the wings. Big gust of wind. You lose. Thanks for playing, "kid" :roll:

you are stupid. listen to what you are saying. you are saying that if you fart on the wings, the plane will fly? you know how heavy a plane is? you will need hurricane force winds, but again, u just added something to suit your needs.

all you have is a plane and a treadmill. no fart, no rope, no wind, ect.

Yeah, see you don't understand the difference between "can" and "will."

Again - how old are you? I only ask because you refer to everyone else as kids.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

Garth, the thurst on the jets moves the plane via the wheels, nothing else. if the treadmill counters the movement of the wheels, the plane is standing still. therefore, no forward movement, no lift, unless Mugs farts on the wings. LOL.

OMG.

The jets do not move the plane via it's wheels. The wheels are there to eliminate friction between the ground and the plane. The jets, via there thrust, move the plane. Keep in mind what the definition of thrust is.

NASA defines thrust as, and I quote: "The force of flight that pushes a plane forward. The engine provides the thrust for flight."

how does an airplane move forward? does it skid on its belly? it moves foward by the wheels rolling.

NASA builds rockets. its takes off staight up. airplane needs to move forward and the only way to go foward is by the wheels turning.

You are not too bright.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MasonLuke
This is the actual question, i did not write this:


?Imagine a plane is sitting on a massive conveyor belt, as wide and as long as a runway. The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?"



Designed to EXACTLY match the speed of the wheels = no friction.

Kids, be proud of yourselves, you and all the ATOT crew PROVED the plane wont fly.


/thread

As I explained, that formulation of the problem is incoherent. The only reasonable interpretation is that the conveyor matches the speed of the plane. Or, if you want to be pedantic (and it seems you do), it doesn't stipulate the rotational speed of the wheels. The "speed of the wheels" must therefore obviously denote the speed of the axles relative to the ground, which is no different than the ground speed of the plane.

That doesn't also change the fact that the majority of the various formulations of the problem stipulate the coherent scenario of the conveyor matching the plane speed.

You still fail.

:thumbsup:

MasonLuke, you ought to quit being so condescending when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

I'm curious about how old you are. I'm going to guess between 18 and 21?

Edit:
Also, the question you posted asks "Can the plane take off?" Not "Will the plane take off." Even if you assume for whatever reason that the plane cannot summon the power to move itself along the treadmill, the plane CAN take off. As many people have correctly pointed out, it is air moving across the wings that generates lift. You don't need to move relative to the ground in order to get air to move across the wings. Big gust of wind. You lose. Thanks for playing, "kid" :roll:

you are stupid. listen to what you are saying. you are saying that if you fart on the wings, the plane will fly? you know how heavy a plane is? you will need hurricane force winds, but again, u just added something to suit your needs.

all you have is a plane and a treadmill. no fart, no rope, no wind, ect.

Yeah, see you don't understand the difference between "can" and "will."

Again - how old are you? I only ask because you refer to everyone else as kids.

Mugs, its possible you can be my son, but i doubt it, because i would have you aborted.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

Garth, the thurst on the jets moves the plane via the wheels, nothing else. if the treadmill counters the movement of the wheels, the plane is standing still. therefore, no forward movement, no lift, unless Mugs farts on the wings. LOL.

OMG.

The jets do not move the plane via it's wheels. The wheels are there to eliminate friction between the ground and the plane. The jets, via there thrust, move the plane. Keep in mind what the definition of thrust is.

NASA defines thrust as, and I quote: "The force of flight that pushes a plane forward. The engine provides the thrust for flight."

how does an airplane move forward? does it skid on its belly? it moves foward by the wheels rolling.

NASA builds rockets. its takes off staight up. airplane needs to move forward and the only way to go foward is by the wheels turning.

You are not too bright.

You're either a grade A fool or troll. I think it's the latter but I can't be sure.

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

Theoretically, your theory is fine...if the plane were to get its movement from the wheels. But it does not. The wheels do nothing but prevent the plane from scraping on the ground. The jets push the plane forward via thrust, and when this is done, the wheels spin freely against the ground.

Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Say you stand on a treadmill with roller skates on and a fvcking rocket on your back. You set the rocket off, and at the same time the treadmill moves at the speed you are. What happens? Do you move forward or stay in one spot?

Screw you're "leave stupid analogies" statement, answer that question. If you say you will stay in one spot, you do not know what thrust and force are.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MasonLuke
This is the actual question, i did not write this:


?Imagine a plane is sitting on a massive conveyor belt, as wide and as long as a runway. The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?"



Designed to EXACTLY match the speed of the wheels = no friction.

Kids, be proud of yourselves, you and all the ATOT crew PROVED the plane wont fly.


/thread

As I explained, that formulation of the problem is incoherent. The only reasonable interpretation is that the conveyor matches the speed of the plane. Or, if you want to be pedantic (and it seems you do), it doesn't stipulate the rotational speed of the wheels. The "speed of the wheels" must therefore obviously denote the speed of the axles relative to the ground, which is no different than the ground speed of the plane.

That doesn't also change the fact that the majority of the various formulations of the problem stipulate the coherent scenario of the conveyor matching the plane speed.

You still fail.

:thumbsup:

MasonLuke, you ought to quit being so condescending when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

I'm curious about how old you are. I'm going to guess between 18 and 21?

Edit:
Also, the question you posted asks "Can the plane take off?" Not "Will the plane take off." Even if you assume for whatever reason that the plane cannot summon the power to move itself along the treadmill, the plane CAN take off. As many people have correctly pointed out, it is air moving across the wings that generates lift. You don't need to move relative to the ground in order to get air to move across the wings. Big gust of wind. You lose. Thanks for playing, "kid" :roll:

you are stupid. listen to what you are saying. you are saying that if you fart on the wings, the plane will fly? you know how heavy a plane is? you will need hurricane force winds, but again, u just added something to suit your needs.

all you have is a plane and a treadmill. no fart, no rope, no wind, ect.

Yeah, see you don't understand the difference between "can" and "will."

Again - how old are you? I only ask because you refer to everyone else as kids.

Mugs, its possible you can be my son, but i doubt it, because i would have you aborted.

QFB

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

Garth, the thurst on the jets moves the plane via the wheels, nothing else. if the treadmill counters the movement of the wheels, the plane is standing still. therefore, no forward movement, no lift, unless Mugs farts on the wings. LOL.

OMG.

The jets do not move the plane via it's wheels. The wheels are there to eliminate friction between the ground and the plane. The jets, via there thrust, move the plane. Keep in mind what the definition of thrust is.

NASA defines thrust as, and I quote: "The force of flight that pushes a plane forward. The engine provides the thrust for flight."

how does an airplane move forward? does it skid on its belly? it moves foward by the wheels rolling.

NASA builds rockets. its takes off staight up. airplane needs to move forward and the only way to go foward is by the wheels turning.

You are not too bright.

Well duh, everyone knows that a pontoon plane moves forward only because its pontoons turn against the water. man you kids are so stupid. the airplane doesnt take off.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

Theoretically, your theory is fine...if the plane were to get its movement from the wheels. But it does not. The wheels do nothing but prevent the plane from scraping on the ground. The jets push the plane forward via thrust, and when this is done, the wheels spin freely against the ground.

Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Say you stand on a treadmill with roller skates on and a fvcking rocket on your back. You set the rocket off, and at the same time the treadmill moves at the speed you are. What happens? Do you move forward or stay in one spot?

Screw you're "leave stupid analogies" statement, answer that question. If you say you will stay in one spot, you do not know what thrust and force are.

Assuming the treadmill matches your speed then yes you stay in place. Like I said leave your stupid analogies at the door we all understand the question. You need equations and only equations to show you are right. Which you are not.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MasonLuke
This is the actual question, i did not write this:


?Imagine a plane is sitting on a massive conveyor belt, as wide and as long as a runway. The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?"



Designed to EXACTLY match the speed of the wheels = no friction.

Kids, be proud of yourselves, you and all the ATOT crew PROVED the plane wont fly.


/thread

As I explained, that formulation of the problem is incoherent. The only reasonable interpretation is that the conveyor matches the speed of the plane. Or, if you want to be pedantic (and it seems you do), it doesn't stipulate the rotational speed of the wheels. The "speed of the wheels" must therefore obviously denote the speed of the axles relative to the ground, which is no different than the ground speed of the plane.

That doesn't also change the fact that the majority of the various formulations of the problem stipulate the coherent scenario of the conveyor matching the plane speed.

You still fail.

:thumbsup:

MasonLuke, you ought to quit being so condescending when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

I'm curious about how old you are. I'm going to guess between 18 and 21?

Edit:
Also, the question you posted asks "Can the plane take off?" Not "Will the plane take off." Even if you assume for whatever reason that the plane cannot summon the power to move itself along the treadmill, the plane CAN take off. As many people have correctly pointed out, it is air moving across the wings that generates lift. You don't need to move relative to the ground in order to get air to move across the wings. Big gust of wind. You lose. Thanks for playing, "kid" :roll:

you are stupid. listen to what you are saying. you are saying that if you fart on the wings, the plane will fly? you know how heavy a plane is? you will need hurricane force winds, but again, u just added something to suit your needs.

all you have is a plane and a treadmill. no fart, no rope, no wind, ect.

Yeah, see you don't understand the difference between "can" and "will."

Again - how old are you? I only ask because you refer to everyone else as kids.

Mugs, its possible you can be my son, but i doubt it, because i would have you aborted.

I :heart: you too. :lips:

You're obviously trolling here. It has been explained to you dozens of different ways, and the best you can come up with is ad hominem attacks. So I'm going to stop wasting my time with you. :thumbsup:

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MasonLuke
This is the actual question, i did not write this:


?Imagine a plane is sitting on a massive conveyor belt, as wide and as long as a runway. The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?"



Designed to EXACTLY match the speed of the wheels = no friction.

Kids, be proud of yourselves, you and all the ATOT crew PROVED the plane wont fly.


/thread

As I explained, that formulation of the problem is incoherent. The only reasonable interpretation is that the conveyor matches the speed of the plane. Or, if you want to be pedantic (and it seems you do), it doesn't stipulate the rotational speed of the wheels. The "speed of the wheels" must therefore obviously denote the speed of the axles relative to the ground, which is no different than the ground speed of the plane.

That doesn't also change the fact that the majority of the various formulations of the problem stipulate the coherent scenario of the conveyor matching the plane speed.

You still fail.

:thumbsup:

MasonLuke, you ought to quit being so condescending when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

I'm curious about how old you are. I'm going to guess between 18 and 21?

Edit:
Also, the question you posted asks "Can the plane take off?" Not "Will the plane take off." Even if you assume for whatever reason that the plane cannot summon the power to move itself along the treadmill, the plane CAN take off. As many people have correctly pointed out, it is air moving across the wings that generates lift. You don't need to move relative to the ground in order to get air to move across the wings. Big gust of wind. You lose. Thanks for playing, "kid" :roll:

you are stupid. listen to what you are saying. you are saying that if you fart on the wings, the plane will fly? you know how heavy a plane is? you will need hurricane force winds, but again, u just added something to suit your needs.

all you have is a plane and a treadmill. no fart, no rope, no wind, ect.

Yeah, see you don't understand the difference between "can" and "will."

Again - how old are you? I only ask because you refer to everyone else as kids.

Mugs, its possible you can be my son, but i doubt it, because i would have you aborted.

QFB

+1

 

[KMc]

Good lord, are people still arguing about this? We did this 25 years ago in 7th grade science class. We did it with a conveyor belt and one of those balsa wood airplanes with the rubber band propeller. It was too simple a setup to have a feedback loop on the speed controller for the conveyor, but we got the plane to take off even by setting it on an already moving belt. In fact, the plane would take off even with the belt running at more that twice the takeoff speed of the airplane.

It seems so simple and it worked, the propeller pulls the airplane through the AIR, regardless of what is happening between the wheels and the GROUND. As long as the drag created by the friction of the turning wheels is less than the thrust created by the propeller, the plane will move forward. If there is sufficient thrust for the plane to reach it's takeoff airspeed, it will takeoff.

 

[jimbob200521]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

Theoretically, your theory is fine...if the plane were to get its movement from the wheels. But it does not. The wheels do nothing but prevent the plane from scraping on the ground. The jets push the plane forward via thrust, and when this is done, the wheels spin freely against the ground.

Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Say you stand on a treadmill with roller skates on and a fvcking rocket on your back. You set the rocket off, and at the same time the treadmill moves at the speed you are. What happens? Do you move forward or stay in one spot?

Screw you're "leave stupid analogies" statement, answer that question. If you say you will stay in one spot, you do not know what thrust and force are.

Assuming the treadmill matches your speed then yes you stay in place. Like I said leave your stupid analogies at the door we all understand the question. You need equations and only equations to show you are right. Which you are not.

Your reply to my question is my case in point. I'm done.

Oh, and you never answered my question of "how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?"

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: MasonLuke
This is the actual question, i did not write this:


?Imagine a plane is sitting on a massive conveyor belt, as wide and as long as a runway. The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels, moving in the opposite direction. Can the plane take off?"



Designed to EXACTLY match the speed of the wheels = no friction.

Kids, be proud of yourselves, you and all the ATOT crew PROVED the plane wont fly.


/thread

As I explained, that formulation of the problem is incoherent. The only reasonable interpretation is that the conveyor matches the speed of the plane. Or, if you want to be pedantic (and it seems you do), it doesn't stipulate the rotational speed of the wheels. The "speed of the wheels" must therefore obviously denote the speed of the axles relative to the ground, which is no different than the ground speed of the plane.

That doesn't also change the fact that the majority of the various formulations of the problem stipulate the coherent scenario of the conveyor matching the plane speed.

You still fail.

:thumbsup:

MasonLuke, you ought to quit being so condescending when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

I'm curious about how old you are. I'm going to guess between 18 and 21?

Edit:
Also, the question you posted asks "Can the plane take off?" Not "Will the plane take off." Even if you assume for whatever reason that the plane cannot summon the power to move itself along the treadmill, the plane CAN take off. As many people have correctly pointed out, it is air moving across the wings that generates lift. You don't need to move relative to the ground in order to get air to move across the wings. Big gust of wind. You lose. Thanks for playing, "kid" :roll:

you are stupid. listen to what you are saying. you are saying that if you fart on the wings, the plane will fly? you know how heavy a plane is? you will need hurricane force winds, but again, u just added something to suit your needs.

all you have is a plane and a treadmill. no fart, no rope, no wind, ect.

Yeah, see you don't understand the difference between "can" and "will."

Again - how old are you? I only ask because you refer to everyone else as kids.

Mugs, its possible you can be my son, but i doubt it, because i would have you aborted.

QFB

Roe v. Wade. i am pro choice!

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

Theoretically, your theory is fine...if the plane were to get its movement from the wheels. But it does not. The wheels do nothing but prevent the plane from scraping on the ground. The jets push the plane forward via thrust, and when this is done, the wheels spin freely against the ground.

Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Say you stand on a treadmill with roller skates on and a fvcking rocket on your back. You set the rocket off, and at the same time the treadmill moves at the speed you are. What happens? Do you move forward or stay in one spot?

Screw you're "leave stupid analogies" statement, answer that question. If you say you will stay in one spot, you do not know what thrust and force are.

Assuming the treadmill matches your speed then yes you stay in place. Like I said leave your stupid analogies at the door we all understand the question. You need equations and only equations to show you are right. Which you are not.

Your reply to my question is my case in point. I'm done.

Oh, and you never answered my question of "how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?"

By spining the wheels backwards.

 

[MasonLuke]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: MasonLuke

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

Garth, the thurst on the jets moves the plane via the wheels, nothing else. if the treadmill counters the movement of the wheels, the plane is standing still. therefore, no forward movement, no lift, unless Mugs farts on the wings. LOL.

OMG.

The jets do not move the plane via it's wheels. The wheels are there to eliminate friction between the ground and the plane. The jets, via there thrust, move the plane. Keep in mind what the definition of thrust is.

NASA defines thrust as, and I quote: "The force of flight that pushes a plane forward. The engine provides the thrust for flight."

how does an airplane move forward? does it skid on its belly? it moves foward by the wheels rolling.

NASA builds rockets. its takes off staight up. airplane needs to move forward and the only way to go foward is by the wheels turning.

You are not too bright.

Well duh, everyone knows that a pontoon plane moves forward only because its pontoons turn against the water. man you kids are so stupid. the airplane doesnt take off.

Thanks for seeing it my way finally. :beer:

 

[jimbob200521]

Not the prettiest, but you guys get the point.

Does this rocket take off?

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: jimbob200521

Originally posted by: smack Down
Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you believe the plane will not take off?

Ok, if so, tell me this; how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?

My theory is simple if the plane moving forward cause the wheels to roll. Rolling the wheels backwards cause the plane to go backwards. All the thrust goes towards accelerating the wheels on the treadmill.

Theoretically, your theory is fine...if the plane were to get its movement from the wheels. But it does not. The wheels do nothing but prevent the plane from scraping on the ground. The jets push the plane forward via thrust, and when this is done, the wheels spin freely against the ground.

Anyone wishing to show the plane can take off or the question is invalid under the assumption that the treadmill matches the speed of the plane relative to the treadmill please just leave out any crappy analogies and write the equations for the interaction between the wheels, treadmill and plane. Then show that the force on the plane via the wheels is bounded anything else is just shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Say you stand on a treadmill with roller skates on and a fvcking rocket on your back. You set the rocket off, and at the same time the treadmill moves at the speed you are. What happens? Do you move forward or stay in one spot?

Screw you're "leave stupid analogies" statement, answer that question. If you say you will stay in one spot, you do not know what thrust and force are.

Assuming the treadmill matches your speed then yes you stay in place. Like I said leave your stupid analogies at the door we all understand the question. You need equations and only equations to show you are right. Which you are not.

Your reply to my question is my case in point. I'm done.

Oh, and you never answered my question of "how does the treadmill counter the thrust that the jets/propeller provide?"

By spining the wheels backwards.

And then it overcomes the force of the engines and pushes the airplane backwards, until it takes off. If you don't have a rebuttal for this then please let me know.