[MMO] World of Tanks

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Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
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High level arty play is very cerebral because you need to maximize each and every opportunity to sway the game. In competitive or CW play, artillery coordination with the other tanks is instrumental in winning.
First sentence: complete horseshit. There is no *deep thinking* involved. The second sentence covers all that is needed. COORDINATION. The battle commander tells what to aim where and when (IE, we are beginning to push the hill in A1, arty please be focused there in 50 seconds). Gives enough time for arty to rotate, aim, and reload in that span. After that, all it is is further coordination with the other arty on your team to either annihilate one target or to shoot independent targets so you don't waste shells (I am horrible at T'ing my target as I *never* aim at the actual target, I am always aiming slightly beyond it or trying to lead it, thus my targeting is strictly verbal (much to the anger of the battle commander who wants silent coms)).

Most of the time, on the campier maps during CW, I heard the phrase let arty do the work. There is a reason, if the tanks try to engage instead of humping rocks, they are toast. All that is ever asked for is an occasional relight of the target so arty can beat the snot out of it. That is *high* level of play, humping rocks while arty hits things. In a pub it is completely evident when a platoon of like minded individuals do that. Passive scouting + arty is devastating in pubs.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
346
126
Whoops, I have rammer and GLD on the Tye E, not vent. It can't use a vent. 1,000 pounds for a spall liner on an 80 ton tank? Noticable?
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
Whoops, I have rammer and GLD on the Tye E, not vent. It can't use a vent. 1,000 pounds for a spall liner on an 80 ton tank? Noticable?
I don't know how nimble the Type E is, but on my lowe a spall liner made it noticeably more clumsy. You'll really have to check your power to weight ratio before and after. I'll bet you're going to really feel it going up any sort of inclines, and you'll be more sluggish when you try to move after firing to avoid counter-battery.
 

Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
1
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I don't know how nimble the Type E is, but on my lowe a spall liner made it noticeably more clumsy. You'll really have to check your power to weight ratio before and after. I'll bet you're going to really feel it going up any sort of inclines, and you'll be more sluggish when you try to move after firing to avoid counter-battery.
Personally, I always go for a camo net as my third item on arty. Even if it's only a small bonus on something like a GWE, it's better than no bonus at all. I'm not really sure what you're hoping a spall liner would save you from in a GWE.
 

Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,247
207
106
Personally, I always go for a camo net as my third item on arty. Even if it's only a small bonus on something like a GWE, it's better than no bonus at all. I'm not really sure what you're hoping a spall liner would save you from in a GWE.
^

Especially after 8.6, keep camo nets on your arties. Camo bonuses being changed to fixed values (instead of percentages) will really help large targets like the GWE. A spall liner will make a small difference on a heavily armored tank. On an arty with 80/50/40 it won't make any real difference in how much splash damage you take.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
346
126
I can't really think of a game where a camo net would save arty - by the time the enemy is that close, they're gonna spot arty with or witout the net.

Now most of the time arty gets countered, a spall liner would't prevent getting one shotted, but there are times the counter leaves you with a littel health.

So neither the net nor the liner are going to help most of the time, just which is better.
 

Daverino

Platinum Member
Mar 15, 2007
2,004
1
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I can't really think of a game where a camo net would save arty - by the time the enemy is that close, they're gonna spot arty with or witout the net.
Think of the woods in Maliovka where arty usually sets up. An arty piece in there with decent camo can sit still and be totally missed by a scout. Or north spawn of Mines. A camo net can be the difference between being spotted from the hill or staying invisible.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
346
126
How did the 5,000 gold promotion for playing WoWP not get discussed here? I just heard about it as people said they got the gold.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
346
126
Think of the woods in Maliovka where arty usually sets up. An arty piece in there with decent camo can sit still and be totally missed by a scout. Or north spawn of Mines. A camo net can be the difference between being spotted from the hill or staying invisible.
Yes, I guess there are limited cases there's a chance of that, but 99% of the time it seems the scout either gets close or doesn't.

I can think of one battle in Mines where my arty got spotted from the hill, I think, out of many.

Of course, arties turning all the time breaks the net camo anyway.
 

Skott

Diamond Member
Oct 4, 2005
5,730
1
76
How did the 5,000 gold promotion for playing WoWP not get discussed here? I just heard about it as people said they got the gold.
Why would we discuss it? Its not the same game. Its better off in its own thread. This is a WoT thread.


Moving along... today I decided to get back more into low tier games and rebought a Pz III. Rediscovering this tank. I had 20 battles with it before during my grind along the old German medium line. I pulled my crew from the Panther II which I never play anymore. I can see myself having fun in this tank.

I also bought the M22 Locust. Only got a few games into it but it really is a fun little tank to play around in. Get into a Tier V battle though its rather difficult to stay alive. Those damn KV tanks and Churchills are very hard to damage with the 37mm gun unless you can get right onto their butts. Only two gripes performance wise is the small gun in Tier V fights and that it doesn't turn as sharp as I would like. You have to think ahead when it comes to turning sharp turns. Maybe Clutch Breaking will help it some. Otherwise its a fun little tank.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
I didn't feel it was worth mentioning because you'd have to play TWO HUNDRED GAMES in 4 days.

That's 50 games a day. At 5 minutes a game, that's 250 minutes.

Or a little bit over 4 hours EVERY DAY for 4 days straight.

Kind of ridiculous if you ask me.
 

pilotofdoom

Junior Member
Dec 11, 2007
11
0
66
First sentence: complete horseshit. There is no *deep thinking* involved.
Disagree, at least when it comes to solo pubs. Clan matches are a different beast and I would agree with you there.

You say there's little difference between playing an arty well or poorly, I say there's a big difference.
I would agree, my m40/43 pulls in a 59% win ratio with 750 battles, played under the same name, >99% solo pubs.

Been following this thread for a bit, since I'm a bit of a lurker here. My two cents:

Skillset to do well in Arty in pubs:
To do really well in arty, you need think strategically, mostly because you can shift fire from one side of map to the other in the time it takes to reload. You need to know where a good shooting spot is to minimize the cover the enemy to use, but also balance that with where the other friendly arty is at to give the enemy even less cover to use. You also need to see where you scouts are going to estimate where the first practical enemy will be spotted (med/heavy vice t50-2). You need to see the balance of tanks, to shore up the weak side when 3 tanks take one lane, and 6 the other (or help the 6 tanks for a quick breakthrough, depends on enemy). Need to pay attention to see if friendly scout is going for an arty run, and alert him if you can't hit corner to corner (like the 40/43 on some maps). I maximize hits by not going counter-battery, wastes time and shots that would be better off on an exposed tank; I run about a 40% hit rate with arty, generally I see 500-700 damage hits on heavy armor; most frenchies/soft tanks get hit harder, and rarely see 1000+ hits, since I run almost exclusively HE. No XVM, though that would help to target good players. But I don't run it because ultimately, I go for the easy, open shot. Why waste time trying to hit a good player in decent cover when another tank is in the open?

Every shot needs to count due to long reload times. And the shots must get out quickly, can't waste time turning the hull once loaded, and wasting another 20 seconds to get an accurate shot. Thus target prediction is key, accurately predicting what the enemy will do 30 seconds from now so I can aim while reloading, for the entire map. The perfect shot is one that you can get off the moment you reload, and switching sections of map (hull movement) is ideally done only during reloads, as part of relocation to avoid CB fire.

Why we hate arty
Especially with the introduction of TD's that can two shot a m103, or the ever present risk of getting ammo-racked, the problem isn't so much the insta-damage, its that arty can shift fire rapidly from one side of map to other that makes it overly valuable for a single vehicle. Just as important, there's always the anger felt when you get hit by something that you can't fight back at. Its easy to get beaten by another tank while in a tank, after all, most of the time you're duking it out with him, and you get your licks in before dying an honorable death, but with arty, you explode out of nowhere which is very frustrating. The arty is sitting back not risking his own tank while you get blasted away, seems unfair. There is similar backlash against invisible tanks, but even that is more acceptable since we know that if they can hit us, we can hit them, and we can also blaim sight mechanics for that.

Conclusion
Ultimately, arty requires a different skillset than tanks, and to learn the basics and do decent is much easier in arty than in tanks, due to lack of incoming rounds and no need for mechanics knowledge (weakspots/pen/armor/etc). But to excel in arty, it is just as difficult as tanks, just in a different skillset.

To illustrate, comparing the stats for PowerYoga and myself, he is clearly the better tanker, yet when it came to his top two arty, an s-51 and 212 (the two also most similar to my 40/43 thanks to the large gun on the s-51 and same tier for the 212), his win rate is clearly lower than mine (53/48% vs. 59%). The result can be attributed to either, a) the 40/43 is OP and I exploit that, b) arty skills are different than tank skills, c) platooning makes a huge difference, or d) I'm really, really lucky with MM and RNG.

If arty is so easy and unbalanced, shouldn't good players have equal or higher win rates for their arty than with their tanks? How often is that true?

I think the pattern is developing that those that have played arty at t7/8 for 500+ games think that to excel in arty is difficult, but easy to do well, and the ones that haven't think that all arty is easy. The disagreement is whether that crossover point exists.

**Side note: I hate that tanks will earn Lucky if I kill them, but I also happen to die in my own blast radius at the same time. Its happened on more than one occasion.
 

ddjkdg

Senior member
Dec 22, 2001
718
0
0
I think they added a lower floor (100 games?) to get a smaller amount of gold in WoT for playing WoWP.

Also a spall liner on a GW Typ E is totally warranted. It has similar spaced side armor to an E-100 meaning that when a counterbat shell lands next to you, the spall liner can make the difference between dying and living with 60hp. In fact the Typ E is the only vehicle in my entire garage that I use a spall liner on.

Arty is ridiculously easy to play competently, which is why bads are so drawn to it. The difference between an average arty player and the best on the server is much smaller than the difference between the average med/heavy player and the best. Arty skill plateaus very quickly and then it takes a lot of effort to get a tiny bit better, whereas situational awareness and decisionmaking are more heavily emphasized in regular vehicles, and those can continually be improved.
 

LurkerPrime

Senior member
Aug 11, 2010
962
0
71
I didn't feel it was worth mentioning because you'd have to play TWO HUNDRED GAMES in 4 days.

That's 50 games a day. At 5 minutes a game, that's 250 minutes.

Or a little bit over 4 hours EVERY DAY for 4 days straight.

Kind of ridiculous if you ask me.

It ended up being worth it for me. I pretty much played all Monday (about 120 games, got the other 80 the other days) in almost exclusively tier 4 planes. So with that, I happened to win one of the other contests for most being in the top 10 kills for the day, which netted me an extra 5k gold. So in essence I got 10k gold for playing 200 games in WoWP, which isn't THAT bad of a game.

P.S. If you actually play the game, the matches are around 5 min. If you try to get yourself killed as fast as possible without lawn darting, it took around 2 min or less.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
I wouldn't want to suicide for 8 hours just for 5k gold, that would be unbelievable terrible.

Also the M40/43 is the best arty in its tier. The OBJ might hit harder, but the shots go wide a LOT. Quite frequently I'd miss crucial shots that'd cost us the game. It's another reason why I dislike artillery: it's too RNG based. Fire and hope you hit for the most part, and like craig said, extremely dependent on the teams. There are MANY games where I've hit 0 shots because RNG doesn't cooperate. Even perfect shots with the enemy on the slope and my circle completely covering him... nope, somehow ends up being wide.

I also almost never platoon, and when I do it's with a friend who I need to carry. (I yell at him alllll the time for doing only 200-400 fucking damage in a tiger 2. Come the fuck on guy... I can do more damage ramming shit.) Coincidentally he does pretty well in arty and its one of his highest damage tanks averaging around 700-1.5k a game.

I'll admit a lot of times I can't make up my mind in playing artillery and that may have lead to losses. I have the attention span of a gnat.
 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
If arty is so easy and unbalanced, shouldn't good players have equal or higher win rates for their arty than with their tanks? How often is that true?
What an interesting conclusion and a complete leap. In pubs, arty is probably the LEAST effective piece to ensure a win. Because in the end, you must have eyes on targets to shoot. And those eyes you are relying on are pubbies. I have had to scout in my arty piece late game because the tanks REFUSED to do it. The better players KNOW that to be most effective in a pub they are the ones that must be near the front lines helping directly with the win throughout the game. Pubbies won't turn around to defend the cap against even the crappiest tank. Pubbies won't spot. Pubbies won't do this time and again I have seen endgame just go completely to shit because I am either arty, or in something hideously slow, or dead.

Case in point: I was in my 183 on Earlinburg (spelling). I was holding the southern bridge and eventually died to 5 arty splash killing me (I still did 3k damage (2 shots) and 2k spotting). Endgame came down to 2 complete pussies in mediums on my side and 2 complete pussies in heavies on the other side and 5 arty just sitting there. It became a draw because the tanks REFUSED to scout. WAY too late our mediums went out scouting but the damage was done. As one of 5 arty players, you would be incapable of turning this into a win. I was incapable of turning this into a win because I was dead.

It is my firm belief that soloing, you can not hit high win rates in upper tier arty because of reliance on pubbies. Even platooned up with a good scout, the combination is extremely susceptible to a suiscout early. Sure, you can win more than lose, you can even get those numbers above 60%, but you will NOT hit 90% that some are doing in 3man IS6 (padder's gonna pad) or other OP tank platoons.

I think the pattern is developing that those that have played arty at t7/8 for 500+ games think that to excel in arty is difficult, but easy to do well, and the ones that haven't think that all arty is easy. The disagreement is whether that crossover point exists.
My 261 is almost ALL clan wars engagements. Time and time again, the arty on our team ends up as the most damaging vehicles in the game. The only exception to this was when they tried to use my 261 when I can not get up/down angles on targets. Clan wars numbers are a bit weird because you are spreading out damage with other GOOD arty players and not useless pubbies.

My type E, I *hated*. The only reason I played it at all was because I was told I might use it in clan wars. So I learned that POS (I know others like it, I do NOT). The type E is so RNG dependent. You are lobbing trucks, but I don't know where the truck is going to land. After the handful of times I played the type in CW, I told them never to put me in it again. I warned them if they did I would only load AP/HEAT (which became an inside joke on my 261... hey Frodo you got 18 AP loaded, right?).

Now, there are EXTREMELY good arty players that I am nowhere near in skill. I have *never* encountered them in pubs, I don't know if they ever play pubs with their end tier arty. I have had the pleasure of seeing one in action in clan wars. Forget it, the guy was magic. Like playing against Jordan, the guy is making shots you couldn't hope to defend against.
 

PowerYoga

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2001
4,603
0
0
and incidentally the scout is the most valuable. Pubbies need reds to shoot. Scouting for pubbies is the only way to make a 45%er useful.
 

LurkerPrime

Senior member
Aug 11, 2010
962
0
71
Its true that it takes very little skill or brain power to be a "good" arty player in contrast to being a good tank player. Are there people who are godlike in arty? Yes, but they are very rare, and I wouldn't be surprised if thier win rates came mostly from platoons and/or company battles.

I have 1500 or so arty battles under my belt (went through an arty phase), and game are usually feast or famine determined by the RNG. Some games you hit and pen everything, others you couldn't hit the side of an airplane hanger to save your life.
 

Fatdog

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2000
1,001
0
76
Tinfoil hat time. Has anyone noticed a decrease in accuracy of their shots lately. Say over the last couple weeks or so? Maybe to make the boost in accuracy in 8.6 more evident?

I'm an average player at best, but was doing great with a 54% overall win rate. My ISU and both SU's are getting worse as I go with shots falling short, then flying right over without moving the gun. I know the BL10 is inaccurate as it's designed but 3 out of 5 shots missing point blank is a bit much. My accuracy and kill rates are falling fast and it's getting annoying.
 

LurkerPrime

Senior member
Aug 11, 2010
962
0
71
Tinfoil hat time. Has anyone noticed a decrease in accuracy of their shots lately. Say over the last couple weeks or so? Maybe to make the boost in accuracy in 8.6 more evident?

I'm an average player at best, but was doing great with a 54% overall win rate. My ISU and both SU's are getting worse as I go with shots falling short, then flying right over without moving the gun. I know the BL10 is inaccurate as it's designed but 3 out of 5 shots missing point blank is a bit much. My accuracy and kill rates are falling fast and it's getting annoying.
I certainly seemed to miss/bounce more shots that I should have on Sunday. I'll tack that up to chance/confirmation bias though, and not a conspiracy theory. Although I did find myself saying "damn I can't wait till 8.6, so I'll stop shooting the ground". I just want to know how long it takes my gold shell trees to grow and bear fruit (new shells), cause I've planted a hell of alot of them in the ground lately.
 

Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
All your misses counter acted the hits I took from enemies. I can't wait to see my average damage in the T95. Last game I actually got to shoot once before getting nuked.
 

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