Mexican shot dead while throwing rocks at Border guards

[DAGTA]

Sigh... I'm not disputing that a rock can harm someone.... Just that there is a HUGE difference between a fist sized rock smashing into the side of someone's face and one thrown from 50 paces...

There are other ways to avoid this (like prevention) than to shoot someone... There are surely situations where firing back is warranted, but there is no reason it has to come to it... and to celebrate the death of a human (boy or not) is disgusting and no better than any of the groups of people everyone here so often bitches about..

So it's impossible for a fist sized rock thrown from 50 paces to smash into the side of someone's face?

 

[flavio]

Perhaps not how it was reported.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/10/mexico-us-tensions-video-boy-shot

 

[Modelworks]

Perhaps not how it was reported.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/10/mexico-us-tensions-video-boy-shot

Hrm, so the boy was shot only 20 ft inside the Mexico border. That destroys the 'throwing rocks from a distance' argument.

 

[Daedalus685]

So it's impossible for a fist sized rock thrown from 50 paces to smash into the side of someone's face?

I have already covered how the probability of lethality is the driving factor in escalation of force... The fact is that if that happened at the Canadian border the officer would face murder charges and be kicked off the force..

The response was out of whack for the threat given the various methods that could have been used to disperse the rabble. Throwing stones is no reason to murder (few things are), though the kid certainly deserved to be arrested.

The point is that whether you feel the officer was within his rights (he very well may be within US rights despite the laws here) doesn't matter... What is disgusting is how the death is being paraded as a good thing.... Noone should have to die because your border is as porous and unmanned as a farmers field in winter... It is a clear indications things are broken more than I had assumed.. It is fundamentally your own damned fault and it is not the kids fault you allowed his generation to grow up without instilling respect in your border rights in them.

 

[nick1985]

Thats the last rock he ever throws at someone...

 

[flavio]

Video contradicts official account...

A grainy mobile phone video has cast doubt on a US border patrol agent's claim that he shot dead a 14-year-old Mexican boy after he was threatened by a group of illegal immigrants.

The footage captures the moments before Sergio Adrián Hernández Güereca was shot in the head on the concrete banks of the Rio Bravo, which at that point is a 10-metre stretch of mud dividing Ciudad Juarez from the Texan city of El Paso.

The killing by US authorities — the second in less than two weeks — has enraged Mexican opinion and exposed the deep distrust between the two countries, with officials from each government making veiled accusations of misconduct by the other's law enforcement agents.

US authorities say the agent was acting in self-defence as he sought to repel a group of would-be migrants hurling rocks. The boy's family claim Hernández was innocently playing with friends. Neither version of the events has been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts reported on each side of the border.

The video, taken from a nearby pedestrian bridge shows three people running from the US bank of the river, towards Mexico, chased by border patrol agents. One of them is caught by an agent who drags him along the ground, keeping one arm outstretched towards Mexico with what looks like a gun in his hand.

The sound of shots follows and a voice is heard shouting: "He's hit him, the idiot, he's hit him." Another voice adds: "It's because they are throwing stones."

The video contradicts an account by FBI spokeswoman Andrea Simmons who previously said: "This agent, who had the second subject detained on the ground, gave verbal commands to the remaining subjects to stop and retreat. However, the subjects surrounded the agent and continued to throw rocks at him. The agent then fired his service weapon several times, striking one subject who later died."

Simmons also told the Associated Press that Mexican soldiers arrived at the scene soon after the shooting and pointed their guns at the border patrol agents while bystanders shouted insults and threw rocks and firecrackers their way, forcing them to withdraw. The Mexican army denied they had been present at the scene, but the federal police confirmed they had "secured" the area after the incident.

A spokesman for the state prosecutor's office, Arturo Sandoval, told reporters that the boy died six metres inside Mexico and that the fatal shot was fired from relatively close range. This has boosted charges from Hernández's family that agent may have crossed into Mexican territory to shoot the boy, and that others tried to cross later to recover evidence.

Beyond the events themselves, the character of the victim has also become a point of conflict. US officials told the El Paso Times that Hernández was on the El Paso juvenile smugglers most-wanted list. But his relatives have showed Mexican reporters school certificates they say prove he was a hard-working student. The family has also announced it will be filing charges in the US courts in search of a murder conviction.

Today, another Mexican killed by border patrol agents was buried in San Diego. Anastasio Hernández, 42, died on 28 May after he was shocked with a stun gun at the San Ysidro border crossing that separates San Diego and Tijuana.

The furore has prompted opposition party leaders in Mexico to accuse the government of being unacceptably timid in its response to the shooting, which has been limited to a couple of statements bemoaning the "disproportionate use of force" and calling on the US authorities to investigate.

 

[Daedalus685]

Thats the last rock he ever throws at someone...

Yes it is... do folks forget that he was human?

How is treating his death as a good thing any different than the morons who cheer when US soldiers come home in a box but for slightly different issues being fought over... he didn't deserve to die and if one thinks he did I'd have to question your sanity...

No, he should not have thrown rocks... but at what age do we learn about two wrongs.. I can tell you I'd much rather have an officer of the peace who stood there like a champ, dodged some rocks, and dispersed the crowd without having to resort to lethality than some Willy nilly coward..

 

[umbrella39]

Lets take a look at another BP agent who had a rock thrown at him recently on the border...

How about let's not since it has nothing to do with this case. I was all set to chalk this up to the teens stupidity until seeing a vid today that doesn't quite jive with the official accounting of what happened.

 

[dahunan]

How about let's not since it has nothing to do with this case. I was all set to chalk this up to the teens stupidity until seeing a vid today that doesn't quite jive with the official accounting of what happened.

I saw the video earlier last night is why I went off on these pussies in here

OP needs to be cavemanned

 

[Daedalus685]

What I don't get is how folks, left and right, are not storming the streets demanding the government does something about the border that looks more like it belongs in Somalia than one of the richest nations on earth...

How is this even a left or right issue? No, I don't think that the chap deserved to die, nor that anyone deserves to beyond going so far as to say they 'needed' to... I think it is despicable that folks are celebrating the death as if killing every single illegal that storms the gates will make a single bit of difference but for pissing a hell of a lot of people off..

How is it that your governments are allowed to do absolutely nothing on the issue... It really is not that complicated of an issue... Nothing at all like general crime and so on... if they have no jobs, they will not come... if you want to keep the jobs then you have to legitimize and ease the access of short term immigration... All waiting is goign to do is militarize the area mroe and more and get folks that don't need to die killed (likely including the poor sods they have guarding 100km of border per man...).

 

[dahunan]

Maybe you should stand before a stoning to prove just how you don't have to defend yourself.

Our BP should defend themselves. To suggest... no, to passionately argue otherwise is tantamount to murdering THEM. So it's really just a question of who you want to kill. In your choice it comes down to the American.

DEFEND key word here

 

[Daedalus685]

DEFEND key word here

Yeah.. I don't get it... No one is saying they can not defend themselves.. but why are people so moronic to assume the only options are black or white? The polarity of our society is maddening (in politics and everything... this lack of grey area is leading the way as far as proof we are all retarded goes)... things are not absolute, I need to either kill or allow them to kill me, or do good old ass kickings not happen anymore.. people either get assaulted and die or get away entirely unharmed?

 

[Jaskalas]

DEFEND key word here

Which is what he was doing until there is certified proof otherwise.

 

[Daedalus685]

Which is what he was doing until there is certified proof otherwise.

Do your officers not have to abide by an escalation of force mandated by the department?

The rule of thumb is that if the situation could have been resolved with lesser force too much was used.. This would be a clear cut case of manslaughter here, which is likely the reason I simply can't grasp how anyone could side with the officer.

 

[spidey07]

Do your officers not have to abide by an escalation of force mandated by the department?

The rule of thumb is that if the situation could have been resolved with lesser force too much was used.. This would be a clear cut case of manslaughter here, which is likely the reason I simply can't grasp how anyone could side with the officer.

A rock is a deadly weapon, deadly force is the proper response. Why is this so difficult to understand? Hold still while I throw rocks at you. I get to pick the rock.

 

[Jaskalas]

A rock is a deadly weapon, deadly force is the proper response. Why is this so difficult to understand? Hold still while I throw rocks at you. I get to pick the rock.

They completely ignore deadly force when it's used against us. They only complain when we return it. This makes the incident a spitting image of the Israeli conflict.

 

[Daedalus685]

A rock is a deadly weapon, deadly force is the proper response. Why is this so difficult to understand? Hold still while I throw rocks at you. I get to pick the rock.

Dear lord...

You don't have to STAND THERE. The point is that you don't ahve to shoot him either... Why are those the only two options? I refuse to believe your officers are that retarded...

I understand that it is 'lethal' just fine... But an officer is required to respond in kind... likely with warnings and aiming of the firearm or using the baton were this to happen where the officers are rational.

 

[palehorse]

Yes it is... do folks forget that he was human?

How is treating his death as a good thing any different than the morons who cheer when US soldiers come home in a box but for slightly different issues being fought over... he didn't deserve to die and if one thinks he did I'd have to question your sanity...

No, he should not have thrown rocks... but at what age do we learn about two wrongs.. I can tell you I'd much rather have an officer of the peace who stood there like a champ, dodged some rocks, and dispersed the crowd without having to resort to lethality than some Willy nilly coward..

Many people -- myself included -- do not weep for dead human/drug smugglers and other felonious criminals.

His age, gender, and race are irrelevant.

I honestly have more sympathy for the officer -- who is probably going through undeserved administrative hell right now -- than I do for the dead kid.

I also reserve some sympathy for the family of the kid since they had to deal with having a criminal for a son.

But the kid? Nope.. fuck him. He had this coming the moment he chose a life of crime and stupidity.

 

[Daedalus685]

They completely ignore deadly force when it's used against us. They only complain when we return it. This makes the incident a spitting image of the Israeli conflict.

Who is they?

Your officer is a coward... that is the point. He wants to go and tackle the kid and drag him in cuffs to jail then go right ahead.. The force he used was far enough out of proportion that in many places around the world he would be a murderer... he would serve time in jail.

 

[Patranus]

Dear lord...

You don't have to STAND THERE. The point is that you don't ahve to shoot him either... Why are those the only two options? I refuse to believe your officers are that retarded...

I understand that it is 'lethal' just fine... But an officer is required to respond in kind... likely with warnings and aiming of the firearm or using the baton were this to happen where the officers are rational.

How is an officer going to use a baton when he is trying to detain another suspect while being pelted with large rocks by another criminal.

God. I can't believe people who are defending this kid. He was a thug. He is on the most wanted list because of human smuggling. He was deported 5 times. You people are acting like he was a saint playing in a playground and the border patrol agent walked up to him and shot him execution style.

Don't break the law, don't put yourself in high risk situation with law enforcement, and guess what will happen??? They wont shoot you.
Shocking I know.

 

[Daedalus685]

Many people -- myself included -- do not weep for dead drug smugglers and other felonious criminals.

His age, gender, and race are irrelevant.

I honestly have more sympathy for the officer -- who is probably going through undeserved administrative hell right now -- than I do for the dead kid.

I also reserve some sympathy for the family of the kid since they had to deal with having a criminal for a son.

I have no information at all about whether the kid was a drug smuggler or not.. Even if he were to celebrate his death is barbaric. Not weeping over it is certainly one thing... some people do not deserve tears... but to openly rejoice is another entirely.

Just because one is a criminal is no reason they have to be killed either... Though as I have probably made clear I am absolutely opposed to the death penalty and strongly support prevention of crime, not punishment. There is no reason this situation had to occur other than your administration over the last few decades has been entirely inept at allowing it to spiral into the current hell.

 

[Daedalus685]

How is an officer going to use a baton when he is trying to detain another suspect while being pelted with large rocks by another criminal.

God. I can't believe people who are defending this kid. He was a thug. He is on the most wanted list because of human smuggling. He was deported 5 times. You people are acting like he was a saint playing in a playground and the border patrol agent walked up to him and shot him execution style.

Don't break the law, don't put yourself in high risk situation with law enforcement, and guess what will happen??? They wont shoot you.
Shocking I know.

I have no doubt the boy was a criminal.. but that is no reason to celebrate his death in a civilized world... I am not defendign the kid.. he is clearly a criminal.. I ahve not once defended his actions. I am attacking the guard.. and attacking those who celebrated the death of the boy. Just because he was in the wrong does not mean that the others were in the right.. this is not grade 3, and we are not supposed to be morons.

But my point entirely is that if the BP was actually being beaten on by others while the kid was throwing rocks then you need more damned guards.. There is no reason this had to come to death. While I understand the law of the land may not make the BP officer a murderer despite how it may be elsewhere there is no reason the security shoudl be so inept as to get to a point were lethal force in a rock throwing incident in seen as a rational outcome...

 

[flavio]

Perhaps not how it was reported.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/10/mexico-us-tensions-video-boy-shot

...

 

[Patranus]

I have no doubt the boy was a criminal.. but that is no reason to celebrate his death in a civilized world...

I don't think people are "celebrating" his death. I think people are not surprised that this thug ended up dead and have little sympathy for him.

People are not "happy" this happened rather they are angered it is even an issue and it is an issue because of the thug not border patrol doing its job.

 

[Daedalus685]

I don't think people are "celebrating" his death. I think people are not surprised that this thug ended up dead and have little sympathy for him.

This god damn post is accompanied by a thumbs up... many of the first comments were of the order of "good riddance." While there may not be anyone parading with confetti and streamers it is certainly well into poor taste and what I have a problem with.. It is as if it is OK that someone died so long as they might have been a criminal (I must add that there are conflicting reports of what this kid was doing), someone dieing should be a damn huge red flag that your border is broken and needs immediate attention... the fact hat this is the second in the last few weeks is mind boggling...


I have a problem with the BP officer because by our laws he would be a murderer, there is no question about that.. understand you folks don't agree with that.. I'll let it lie as that is not the issue...

People should not be angered this is an issue.. they should be angered that this happened at all.. Of course it is an issue, you ahve gruops of dozens of folks entering your contry eevry day, and treat it as if the only option is to guard against them instead of doing anything at all to solve the actual problem..