#MeToo and Time Travel

[realibrad]

Yeah, I would say so. That was my vague impression when I heard it a long time ago (though can't say I've ever listened to it very closely since, as I don't care for it - it's one of those tunes I find actively irritating for some reason). As it happens there are more than a few songs I actually like that I have to admit are every bit as dodgy. Now I think about it, I do find that a bit tricky.

Look back at this post.

Read those lyrics in the context of what I posted, and see if it still sounds creepy.

 

[realibrad]

I ssaid consider the context of the time it was written..

Any idea what gay apparel is?

That's easy.

https://www.differio.com/gay-clothing

 

[Viper1j]

That's easy.

https://www.differio.com/gay-clothing

So THAT'S what they were wearing when "Hark The Herald, Angels Sing" was written?

If you say so.

 

[realibrad]

So THAT'S what they were wearing when "Hark The Herald, Angels Sing" was written? View attachment 1197

If you say so.

Those abs are heavenly.

 

[Perknose]

Personally, I must admit that I have always kind of liked the song, principally because I've always heard/seen it performed by m/f duets during which each person all but cooed at each other with genuine warmth and mutual affection.

As with many, many popular songs that have flashed into and out of my attention, I never really did a deep dive into all of the lyrics.

Now, as presented, I can see where some would find some of the lyrics, and therefore the overall tone of the song, problematical unto creepily offensive.

This is 2018. We are slowly, haltingly evolving out of a distinctly male dominated society . . . just as we are slowly and haltingly dealing with our racist and genocidal past. Be it a statue of R. E. Lee or this song, these changes will cause discomfort to those of us who never fully realized the pain and anger they have caused long less-enfranchised groups of our fellow citizens.

Those of us who grew up with racism and/or misogyny so prevalent and pervasive that it was inextricably woven into the very fabric of the culture all around us -- from statues in the square to songs on the radio -- simply have to suck it up and deal with this essentially positive societal change, because, once again:

To those used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

 

[pmv]

I ssaid consider the context of the time it was written..

Any idea what gay apparel is?

To be clear, I'm talking about the 'baby its cold' song. Clearly the word 'gay' has acquired a new meaning over the years, that's a pretty trivial example. But which words in the song we are talking about have simply changed meaning and thus changed the meaning of the lyrics?

People are a bit too quick to reach for the 'standards of the time' argument about such things, there is rarely one single 'standard' that apples to everyone in an era, and the 1940s were not _that_ long ago, we aren't talking the 18th century. I've heard people make the 'standards of the time' argument about times within my own lifetime where I could remember not actually agreeing with those 'standards' even at the time.

Besides, what is the substance of the argument here? I find it a slightly creepy lyric. Some people do. That doesn't mean the song can or should be erased from existence, just means you need to know your audience if you are going to play it.

 

[Vic]

Yay! More manufactured outrage!

 

[realibrad]

To be clear, I'm talking about the 'baby its cold' song. Clearly the word 'gay' has acquired a new meaning over the years, that's a pretty trivial example. But which words in the song we are talking about have simply changed meaning and thus changed the meaning of the lyrics?

People are a bit too quick to reach for the 'standards of the time' argument about such things, there is rarely one single 'standard' that apples to everyone in an era, and the 1940s were not _that_ long ago, we aren't talking the 18th century. I've heard people make the 'standards of the time' argument about times within my own lifetime where I could remember not actually agreeing with those 'standards' even at the time.

Besides, what is the substance of the argument here? I find it a slightly creepy lyric. Some people do. That doesn't mean the song can or should be erased from existence, just means you need to know your audience if you are going to play it.

You find the lyric creepy in the context of the song, or just the single lyric?

 

[Viper1j]

Personally, I must admit that I have always kind of liked the song, principally because I've always heard/seen it performed by m/f duets during which each person all but cooed at each other with genuine warmth and mutual affection.

EXACTLY THIS!

Yay! More manufactured outrage!

The real irony, is that if some government dweeb had ordered the station not to play it, it would protests and lawsuits for days.

 

[nakedfrog]

I ssaid consider the context of the time it was written..

Any idea what gay apparel is?

Is this a joke?
Figured everyone knew that it means happy.

And yes, even in the contextual time of the song, it's still creepy. She'd have a real societal issue to deal with if she did stay (in the forties), but he keeps on pressuring her anyway.

 

[TheVrolok]

EXACTLY THIS!



The real irony, is that if some government dweeb had ordered the station not to play it, it would protests and lawsuits for days.

I do think you quoted Perk out of context. I agree that I've always perceived both partners in the duet as coquettish and haven't appreciated any predatory intonation. That said, I can understand why some would, particularly in present day context. THAT said, I don't give a damn what some private radio station does.

 

[Viper1j]

Is this a joke?
Figured everyone knew that it means happy.

And yes, even in the contextual time of the song, it's still creepy. She'd have a real societal issue to deal with if she did stay (in the forties), but he keeps on pressuring her anyway.

Gay USED to mean happy, but no more.

Neighbors gossiping does not constitute rape.

 

[Vic]

EXACTLY THIS!



The real irony, is that if some government dweeb had ordered the station not to play it, it would protests and lawsuits for days.

If a government dweeb were involved, then it would be actual censorship, and thus something that would legitimately deserve protests and lawsuits.
This OTOH is just manufactured outrage as a publicity stunt. The Streisand Effect as a business model.

 

[Viper1j]

I do think you quoted Perk out of context. I agree that I've always perceived both partners in the duet as coquettish and haven't appreciated any predatory intonation. That said, I can understand why some would, particularly in present day context. THAT said, I don't give a damn what some private radio station does.

"Coquettish "

Very nice word usage. I don't think the quote was out of context, I think people look for demons so much they start to accuse angels. They're similar, but very different.

 

[nakedfrog]

Gay USED to mean happy, but no more.

Neighbors gossiping does not constitute rape.

Uh, who said it did? I know I didn't.

 

[Viper1j]

I was unfamiliar with The Streisand effect until I googled it.. Interesting.

 

[zinfamous]

I think she was just asking what was in it, in terms of it being a strong alcoholic drink.

It was never mysterious what the intent of that lyric was. This song was written back when it was cool to drug and rape women at office parties.

Just saying.

 

[compuwiz1]

IF that song is offensive, liberals need to disconnect their cable and satellite TVs, burn their 50 shades books, delete all their rap songs, throw away CD's and stop listening to music in general. Throw out the Hustlers and Playboys too, while you're at it. This is just getting stupid!

 

[realibrad]

Uh, who said it did? I know I didn't.

Did you read the full post? The question was asked how one could read something from an older perspective. The word was used to exemplify how you could read gay and know that it meant something that it does not, thus proving you could read something from an older perspective.

 

[realibrad]

It was never mysterious what the intent of that lyric was. This song was written back when it was cool to drug and rape women at office parties.

Just saying.

Do you believe that was the context of the song? It sounds like you feel it was clearly obvious but I want to make sure.

 

[nakedfrog]

Did you read the full post? The question was asked how one could read something from an older perspective. The word was used to exemplify how you could read gay and know that it meant something that it does not, thus proving you could read something from an older perspective.

I wasn't talking about that part of the post.

 

[Perknose]

I do think you quoted Perk out of context. I agree that I've always perceived both partners in the duet as coquettish and haven't appreciated any predatory intonation. That said, I can understand why some would, particularly in present day context. THAT said, I don't give a damn what some private radio station does.

All of this, especially the bolded part.

I don't think the quote was out of context...

It was. Moreover, c'mon man, you KNOW it was, given my entire post, which ended:

Those of us who grew up with racism and/or misogyny so prevalent and pervasive that it was inextricably woven into the very fabric of the culture all around us -- from statues in the square to songs on the radio -- simply have to suck it up and deal with this essentially positive societal change, because, once again:

To those used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

 

[zinfamous]

Why is it creepy?

The intentional and obvious endorsement of what is now called the Cosby Maneuver.

I've known this song for some time. I always known what it meant. I never thought to go out of my way and get angry about it, but I knew it was always creepy because I always knew what it meant.

"Pour some drinks" of course means alcohol, by default. If anyone offers you "a drink" and it isn't alcoholic, then they aren't offering you a drink. Not in in polite society, anyway. The reason she asks "hey, what's in this drink?" is because it tastes funny/knocked her down a bit more than expected.

The absolute meaning of this song is not to be quibbled over. It means what it means. Please keep your quibbling to the current subject of whether or not the radio should or shouldn't endorse Cosbying women in popular Christmas songs.

 

[Viper1j]

Hmm.. Thought I was agreeing with you.

 

[realibrad]

The intentional and obvious endorsement of what is now called the Cosby Maneuver.

I've known this song for some time. I always known what it meant. I never thought to go out of my way and get angry about it, but I knew it was always creepy because I always knew what it meant.

"Pour some drinks" of course means alcohol, by default. If anyone offers you "a drink" and it isn't alcoholic, then they aren't offering you a drink. Not in in polite society, anyway. The reason she asks "hey, what's in this drink?" is because it tastes funny/knocked her down a bit more than expected.

The absolute meaning of this song is not to be quibbled over. It means what it means. Please keep your quibbling to the current subject of whether or not the radio should or shouldn't endorse Cosbying women in popular Christmas songs.

Please, the quibble started before me, and all discussion is about the quibble. To try and link it to me is a weak move.

You are taking the line to mean it tastes funny, when I read it to mean that its strong. Given the context of the song, she seems to want to stay, but is afraid of the social implications. You are seeing rape but the context seems to be that she is torn between what she wants and social norms. The song does not exclude the possibility, but, it is also not anywhere near explicit about being about rape as well.