McCain wants to lift ban on offshore drilling

[Vic]

Originally posted by: yuppiejr
While I believe your statement is well intended it is an example of the sort of idealism that leads to the INABILITY to innovate due to a lack of financial resources.

The above statement to which you responded and I agreed advocated short term increase in oil production to support US energy needs WHILE we invest in newer/alternative energy sources. As you noted in your last sentence, researching new energy technologies requires MONEY. If the US economy is tanking because energy costs are varying wildly there is less money in said economy to spend on alternative energy research how does that help anyone?

The benefits to all Americans of investing responsibly in alternative energy sources cannot be argued either from a cost or environmental stewardship perspective. The key is managing the investment and transition in a way that doesn't bankrupt the country in the process.

I didn't realize we were broke. Far from it. Plus, there is no energy shortage. None at all. The current economic situation was not caused by high oil prices, those are just making it worse.

On top of that, necessity is the mother of all invention. Any short term increase in oil production will just cause the short-sighted to go back to thinking there is nothing wrong and no need to invest in alternatives. Or to even bother conserving or acting responsibly.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
More people are leaving than they are moving here.

Really bad joke time.

Are they leaving or just dying of old age?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: jamesall
That is good McCain wants to lift ban on offshore drilling, but it won't pass congress or the environmental lobbyist.

As I already said in this thread, this is just more election year pandering on an issue that will NOT be decided by the next President.

 

[child of wonder]

Drilling for oil offshore would do a lot to bring gas prices down and ease the financial burden on Americans at the pump.

But then all the mindless sheep will go out and start buying SUVs and giant pick ups again, increasing demand, and putting us right back in the same hole a few years down the road.

How about we take the oil company's subsidies away and invest all that money into alternative energy research? Oil companies can raise prices to compensate for losing the subsidies but that will simply drive more people away from gas and towards other forms of energy.

WIN-WIN

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Dari

Then get off your ass and hit the net or library. I'm sure there's a plethora of information regarding the oil industry in the Gulf. The only obvious downside is that the region is relatively poor. Now this could be because the leaders in that area became complacent since they had oil revenue or they just didn't have anything else to build up. I'm betting it's the former considering most other oil-producing nations don't have much else in the way of economics. That said, I doubt that a state like Florida would be willing to make such a trade-off. Hell, look at eastern Texas. It's part of one of the richest states in the nation but it's dirt poor.

I am not willing to bet on that. Christ is just that bad. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he just started leaning on the oil drilling as a crutch instead of working towards attracting more tourists which Florida has always thrived upon and is steadily declining to achieve. I am worried that this state is going to become very poor if it doesn't change soon. Things just keep getting worse. More people are leaving than they are moving here.

I thought your Governor was popular in Florida? Furthermore, a state with a rich service industry would be shooting itself in the foot if it traded that for something limited like oil-drilling. You can't have both and only a fool would make such a trade-off.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Xavier434
More people are leaving than they are moving here.

Really bad joke time.

Are they leaving or just dying of old age?

Oh god...don't even get me started on all of the old people. :laugh:

 

[yuppiejr]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Dari
Well, it has worked well for the Gulf states, I think we should let all states do as they please.

This is actually a point which deserves a good deal of attention from anyone wishing to make an educated decision. I would like to know the details regarding the history of their drilling. Specifically, I would be looking for the history of their accidents and long term effects on their shores.

Agreed with both points - I believe what McCain is advocating is simply removing FEDERAL restrictions on drilling opening the door for states to make their own decisions. It's up to Florida and the other effected states to decide if and how to approach this opportunity. I consider it a good move from both an energy supply standpoint and a great precedent from a "states rights" perspective.

To be honest, I don't want Christ making this decision and I doubt that you would want him calling the shots for it either if you lived here. He is quite awful.

Example of said awfulness? I assume you mean your governor, Charlie Crist, not the Son of God...

 

[yuppiejr]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Dari

Then get off your ass and hit the net or library. I'm sure there's a plethora of information regarding the oil industry in the Gulf. The only obvious downside is that the region is relatively poor. Now this could be because the leaders in that area became complacent since they had oil revenue or they just didn't have anything else to build up. I'm betting it's the former considering most other oil-producing nations don't have much else in the way of economics. That said, I doubt that a state like Florida would be willing to make such a trade-off. Hell, look at eastern Texas. It's part of one of the richest states in the nation but it's dirt poor.

I am not willing to bet on that. Christ is just that bad. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he just started leaning on the oil drilling as a crutch instead of working towards attracting more tourists which Florida has always thrived upon and is steadily declining to achieve. I am worried that this state is going to become very poor if it doesn't change soon. Things just keep getting worse. More people are leaving than they are moving here.

I thought your Governor was popular in Florida? Furthermore, a state with a rich service industry would be shooting itself in the foot if it traded that for something limited like oil-drilling. You can't have both and only a fool would make such a trade-off.

<cough> He's a Republican and this is the AT P&N forums...

Crist has caught a lot of heat from conservatives in his own party for being squishy on certain trigger issues like global warming. The only time I've heard his name in conversation is when I catch Jason Lewis on the radio slamming our own huggy bear Republican governor and other "RINO" (Republican In Name Only) elected officials.

Note that I am providing this tidbit as an insider observation from the 20% of the people who visit this forum with a right leaning perspective - not as an endorsement or criticism of Crist's administration. I really don't have an opinion on Florida's government at the moment since I'm not near or over retirement age.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: piasabird
I have one thing to say. Lets force a vote on this before the Presidential election and see how Obama Votes. If he votes against it, we will know he is against the interests of the USA and If McCain votes for it, we will make him president.

Force the issue now and force an up or down vote!

Shut up and Drill!

Again, that is really easy to say when your home is not going to be effected.

My state would start drilling if the limit was removed, so let's have a vote.

 

[IGBT]

..good.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Dari

I thought your Governor was popular in Florida? Furthermore, a state with a rich service industry would be shooting itself in the foot if it traded that for something limited like oil-drilling. You can't have both and only a fool would make such a trade-off.

Allow me to provide a couple examples.

Tourism is on a steady decline, but many Floridians don't care because they hate tourists and ignore that they are not around as much. Crist has done nothing to resolve this issue.

Education is dropping A LOT due to tremendous amounts of budget cuts.

Police and Fire Fighters have also undergone a lot of budget cuts yet you got these old people which write to their congressman when someone breaks into their house. These same old people voted for the Homestead Exemption except they didn't think about how Florida would just make up for the lost funds by cutting education, police departments, and fire departments. Hell, most probably still don't realize it.


That's just a small taste of Crist for you. There is a lot more.

 

[yuppiejr]

Originally posted by: child of wonder
Drilling for oil offshore would do a lot to bring gas prices down and ease the financial burden on Americans at the pump.

But then all the mindless sheep will go out and start buying SUVs and giant pick ups again, increasing demand, and putting us right back in the same hole a few years down the road.

How about we take the oil company's subsidies away and invest all that money into alternative energy research? Oil companies can raise prices to compensate for losing the subsidies but that will simply drive more people away from gas and towards other forms of energy.

WIN-WIN

Maybe, I can't say I'm opposed to removing subsidies from oil companies (or MOST government subsidies of private business) BUT I think subsidies to encourage alternative energy production need to be better managed.

Corn based ethanol is a disaster no matter how you slice it yet production continues to ramp UP due to government subsidies. The only people benefiting from this debacle of an energy investment are the folks in agra-business, the taxpayers are getting double soaked at the grocery store and in their tax bill.

We need to make sure an alternative energy option is both commercially viable, sustainable AND not worse for the environment like Corn Ethanol before we start throwing money at it.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Dari

I thought your Governor was popular in Florida? Furthermore, a state with a rich service industry would be shooting itself in the foot if it traded that for something limited like oil-drilling. You can't have both and only a fool would make such a trade-off.

Allow me to provide a couple examples.

Tourism is on a steady decline, but many Floridians don't care because they hate tourists and ignore that they are not around as much. Crist has done nothing to resolve this issue.

Education is dropping A LOT due to tremendous amounts of budget cuts.

Police and Fire Fighters have also undergone a lot of budget cuts yet you got these old people which write to their congressman when someone breaks into their house. These same old people voted for the Homestead Exemption except they didn't think about how Florida would just make up for the lost funds by cutting education, police departments, and fire departments. Hell, most probably still don't realize it.


That's just a small taste of Crist for you. There is a lot more.

I think people are starting to wake up, I know where am, cuts to the university have people foaming at the mouth.

Crist is a joke and the idea of him being McCain's VP would just be the final nail in his campaign coffin.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Dari

I thought your Governor was popular in Florida? Furthermore, a state with a rich service industry would be shooting itself in the foot if it traded that for something limited like oil-drilling. You can't have both and only a fool would make such a trade-off.

Allow me to provide a couple examples.

Tourism is on a steady decline, but many Floridians don't care because they hate tourists and ignore that they are not around as much. Crist has done nothing to resolve this issue.

Education is dropping A LOT due to tremendous amounts of budget cuts.

Police and Fire Fighters have also undergone a lot of budget cuts yet you got these old people which write to their congressman when someone breaks into their house. These same old people voted for the Homestead Exemption except they didn't think about how Florida would just make up for the lost funds by cutting education, police departments, and fire departments. Hell, most probably still don't realize it.


That's just a small taste of Crist for you. There is a lot more.

Everyone knows that "small government" is when you cut infrastructure and public services spending while keeping overall spending the same.

 

[yuppiejr]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Dari

I thought your Governor was popular in Florida? Furthermore, a state with a rich service industry would be shooting itself in the foot if it traded that for something limited like oil-drilling. You can't have both and only a fool would make such a trade-off.

Allow me to provide a couple examples.

Tourism is on a steady decline, but many Floridians don't care because they hate tourists and ignore that they are not around as much. Crist has done nothing to resolve this issue.

Education is dropping A LOT due to tremendous amounts of budget cuts.

Police and Fire Fighters have also undergone a lot of budget cuts yet you got these old people which write to their congressman when someone breaks into their house. These same old people voted for the Homestead Exemption except they didn't think about how Florida would just make up for the lost funds by cutting education, police departments, and fire departments. Hell, most probably still don't realize it.


That's just a small taste of Crist for you. There is a lot more.

If a majority of Floridians don't like tourists/tourism why it is a bad thing that the governor is not promoting a program to bring more of them into the state. Sounds to me like the people have spoken and he listened?

I was under the impression that Florida's aging population and dramatic increase in dependents utilizing taxpayer funded programs had a lot to do with their budget strains? There are pretty much 2 options when you start collecting less in taxes or paying out more in benefits... either RAISE taxes (which fixed income folks don't like) or cut spending. Sounds like he is trying to balance the budget by cutting spending which will always create cries of foul, particularly when you are talking about Fire/Police or Education resources.

I'd have to look more closely at the Eduction issue in FL but I can tell you in THIS state that we have a SHRINKING student population yet spend MORE money per student than ever in state history. We hear the same doom and gloom (mostly from teachers union or their hired publicity firms) up here but the fact is there is no lack of money for education, rather the money allocated is being poorly used.

 

[Genx87]

I want to thank everybody for keeping this discussion from turning into a flame war and on topic.

I think this is a very serious topic that we as a nation who is feeling the crunch of higher energy costs needs to discuss. Should we open our reserves up for drilling?

:thumbsup:

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Dari

I thought your Governor was popular in Florida? Furthermore, a state with a rich service industry would be shooting itself in the foot if it traded that for something limited like oil-drilling. You can't have both and only a fool would make such a trade-off.

Allow me to provide a couple examples.

Tourism is on a steady decline, but many Floridians don't care because they hate tourists and ignore that they are not around as much. Crist has done nothing to resolve this issue.

Education is dropping A LOT due to tremendous amounts of budget cuts.

Police and Fire Fighters have also undergone a lot of budget cuts yet you got these old people which write to their congressman when someone breaks into their house. These same old people voted for the Homestead Exemption except they didn't think about how Florida would just make up for the lost funds by cutting education, police departments, and fire departments. Hell, most probably still don't realize it.


That's just a small taste of Crist for you. There is a lot more.

If a majority of Floridians don't like tourists/tourism why it is a bad thing that the governor is not promoting a program to bring more of them into the state. Sounds to me like the people have spoken and he listened?

I was under the impression that Florida's aging population and dramatic increase in dependents utilizing taxpayer funded programs had a lot to do with their budget strains? There are pretty much 2 options when you start collecting less in taxes or paying out more in benefits... either RAISE taxes (which fixed income folks don't like) or cut spending. Sounds like he is trying to balance the budget by cutting spending which will always create cries of foul, particularly when you are talking about Fire/Police or Education resources.

I'd have to look more closely at the Eduction issue in FL but I can tell you in THIS state that we have a SHRINKING student population yet spend MORE money per student than ever in state history. We hear the same doom and gloom (mostly from teachers union or their hired publicity firms) up here but the fact is there is no lack of money for education, rather the money allocated is being poorly used.

We dropped to rank 50 at some point recently in education. We were never high up there but that is ridiculous. Also, please don't take this offensively but if you are not familiar with how crucial tourism is to the economy of Florida then don't take the stance you are taking in that first sentence. I have lived here all of my life. The people in Florida are aware that the tourists bring in money. Most just don't realize how much the state depends on it and then they complain when there are budget cuts, high taxes, lack of quality education, etc. Basically they want a ton of stuff to happen but they don't understand that Florida needs the tourism to make that happen. There was a time when the state flourished a lot more due to that tourism. Crist doesn't understand that either. His solution is to continuously shift money around instead of taking some serious action to bring more money into the state.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I want to thank everybody for keeping this discussion from turning into a flame war and on topic.

I think this is a very serious topic that we as a nation who is feeling the crunch of higher energy costs needs to discuss. Should we open our reserves up for drilling?

:thumbsup:

Sure, go ahead. I'm just saying that, as our existing situation is not caused by any shortage of oil or energy, opening up reserves will not do anything to alleviate the oil problem (much less provide any solution). It might dampen speculation for a while though, although I'm not convinced of that. And even if it does, economic laws dictate that consumption will increase with production, eventually putting us right back where we were. IOW, we have an untenable situation here. As long as we remain dependent on oil, foreign or domestic, our problems with oil will remain.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Dari

I thought your Governor was popular in Florida? Furthermore, a state with a rich service industry would be shooting itself in the foot if it traded that for something limited like oil-drilling. You can't have both and only a fool would make such a trade-off.

Allow me to provide a couple examples.

Tourism is on a steady decline, but many Floridians don't care because they hate tourists and ignore that they are not around as much. Crist has done nothing to resolve this issue.

Education is dropping A LOT due to tremendous amounts of budget cuts.

Police and Fire Fighters have also undergone a lot of budget cuts yet you got these old people which write to their congressman when someone breaks into their house. These same old people voted for the Homestead Exemption except they didn't think about how Florida would just make up for the lost funds by cutting education, police departments, and fire departments. Hell, most probably still don't realize it.


That's just a small taste of Crist for you. There is a lot more.

If a majority of Floridians don't like tourists/tourism why it is a bad thing that the governor is not promoting a program to bring more of them into the state. Sounds to me like the people have spoken and he listened?

I was under the impression that Florida's aging population and dramatic increase in dependents utilizing taxpayer funded programs had a lot to do with their budget strains? There are pretty much 2 options when you start collecting less in taxes or paying out more in benefits... either RAISE taxes (which fixed income folks don't like) or cut spending. Sounds like he is trying to balance the budget by cutting spending which will always create cries of foul, particularly when you are talking about Fire/Police or Education resources.

I'd have to look more closely at the Eduction issue in FL but I can tell you in THIS state that we have a SHRINKING student population yet spend MORE money per student than ever in state history. We hear the same doom and gloom (mostly from teachers union or their hired publicity firms) up here but the fact is there is no lack of money for education, rather the money allocated is being poorly used.

The problem is that rather than targeting pork and wasteful spending, he kept the pork but just dropped funding for everything by ~6%( I might be fudging that number, but the cuts were applied equally across the board).

Property taxes and/or insurance are a huge driver in this state and that is forcing people away in droves.

We are also ground zero for the illegal immigrant problem, I won't blame that too much but could be a driver in the total cost of social services.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Xavier434
More people are leaving than they are moving here.

Really bad joke time.

Are they leaving or just dying of old age?

Oh god...don't even get me started on all of the old people. :laugh:

Yep, you're a Floridian all right! :laugh:

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: ayabe

The problem is that rather than targeting pork and wasteful spending, he kept the pork but just dropped funding for everything by ~6%( I might be fudging that number, but the cuts were applied equally across the board).

Property taxes and/or insurance are a huge driver in this state and that is forcing people away in droves.

We are also ground zero for the illegal immigrant problem, I won't blame that too much but could be a driver in the total cost of social services.

Oh man...I can't believe I forgot to list the insurance issues. As if the housing bubble which still exists in South Florida wasn't bad enough. That part alone is driving tons of people away. They just can't afford to be here any more. Jobs in many particular industries are getting more scarce too although that cannot be completely blamed on Crist. That is happening across the nation.

If we want to throw numbers into this topic, let me just say that this year my county was cut 70 million in education funding alone. Layoffs have been happening all over the state and we are desperate for teachers. Not that I blame them for not wanting to come here. When you are ranked at 50 or close to it and are offering crap salaries then why would any teacher want to work here? That issue hasn't been touched at all and if you review Crist's campaign you will see how he continuously tried to convince people about how he was all for education. He is not a man to be trusted. He is all bark and no bite.

 

[nageov3t]

I've always wanted to go to work on an oil rig.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Genx87
I want to thank everybody for keeping this discussion from turning into a flame war and on topic.

I think this is a very serious topic that we as a nation who is feeling the crunch of higher energy costs needs to discuss. Should we open our reserves up for drilling?

:thumbsup:

Sure, go ahead. I'm just saying that, as our existing situation is not caused by any shortage of oil or energy, opening up reserves will not do anything to alleviate the oil problem (much less provide any solution). It might dampen speculation for a while though, although I'm not convinced of that. And even if it does, economic laws dictate that consumption will increase with production, eventually putting us right back where we were. IOW, we have an untenable situation here. As long as we remain dependent on oil, foreign or domestic, our problems with oil will remain.

Well put - as usual. :thumbsup: And I'd agree even if I didn't live in FL.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: loki8481
I've always wanted to go to work on an oil rig.

I'm not even gonna go there! :laugh:

 

[Deudalus]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

That is really easy to argue if you are not living near the coast and your state heavily relies on tourism thanks to those coasts remaining attractive.

I live in New Orleans which is a tourist mecca.

It is near the water.

We the drill the shit out of some oil.

We also refine it to gas here because the rest of the states refuse to do so.


You have to also consider that when gas hits 8 dollars a gallon not too many people will be driving to your beaches to vacation.....