Many Missouri HS students walk out to protest transgender using wrong bathroom

[realibrad]

Christ that is just fucking filthy. You work up a sweat and then jump into your school clothes?! You have to be from the South. That kind of nasty shit never happens here in the North.

Nope, I went to school in the Valley of CA. I took PE at the end of the day for that very reason. I also never smelled when I was younger. I could sweat all day and not smell. Now by the end of the day I smell sitting in a cubicle.

I guess CA is not the north or the south.

I'm guessing its been a while for you, but everyone I know had the same story. I think its a generation thing.

 

[realibrad]

It has generally seemed to me that just as people get older they just have fewer fucks to give where modesty is concerned.

To touch on woolfe9998's point above our society has done a pretty bang up job of making kids terrified of their bodies, sexuality, and (to a lesser exert lately) sex in general.

If older people had less fucks to give, then they would vote less conservative. They seem to have lots of fucks for who people fuck.

 

[K1052]

If older people had less fucks to give, then they would vote less conservative. They seem to have lots of fucks for who people fuck.

I did qualify my statement.

I think largely people become more conservative as they age because the world changes from what they knew when they were younger. I have some family members who, before hitting middle age and later, this board would have described as hippies or libtards that are now the most die hard fox news fans you've ever seen.

Seldom is anything more frightening than change that you can't understand or relate to.

 

[realibrad]

I did qualify my statement.

I think largely people become more conservative as they age because the world changes from what they knew when they were younger. I have some family members who, before hitting middle age and later, this board would have described as hippies or libtards that are now the most die hard fox news fans you've ever seen.

Seldom is anything more fighting than change that you can't understand or relate to.

I'm hoping that technology will make change happen fast enough that people accept it more than now.

I'm going to be 29 next month, and holy crap the world is changing. I'm old enough to remember car phones being in people's cars. I did not have internet access until I was a in 10th grade. Now, my thermostat and sprinkler controller are connected to my wifi.

 

[woolfe9998]

Um... having looked at the pictures on my son's Iphone I would have to decidely disagree with you. From what I saw, todays teenagers have no problem with showing off their naked bodies. I had to explain to him that SEXTING is a federal crime when it involves minors. I think perhaps there is an issue with FAT kids self-image, the FIT kids have no such hangups.

Just because some young people will show their bodies on the internet doesn't make it the norm. Anyone claiming that young people have no shame or embarrassment over their naked bodies is not being honest. Even those who show off often think they are doing so for just one person and then they get blackmailed by the threat to expose the photos to a wider audience. Sure, some teenage girls get off at guys they don't know looking at their naked bodies. Some also have sex at age 12. Some go and do porn when they're 18. Doesn't make any of it typical.

 

[Anubis]

Christ that is just fucking filthy. You work up a sweat and then jump into your school clothes?! You have to be from the South. That kind of nasty shit never happens here in the North.

im from the north graduated HS in 2000 no one ever showered after PE besides the 2 weeks we had swimming as part of PE in the winter

shit 1/2 the people didn't even change their clothes

 

[DCal430]

Those are girls? More like females that have been turned into freaks due to modern science. Same holds true for Bruce Jenner.

You are sick. This is why so many of them commit suicide. People like you turn their lives into hell.

 

[fskimospy]

I think it's important to not conflate two different issues here. One is whether this particular transsexual should be allowed in the locker room or bathroom. The other is what is motivating those who oppose it. Your reply to me addresses point 1 but doesn't address point 2. Point 2 was the main focus of my post in reply to DCal. DCal had compared the issue to segregation of schools in the south prior to the success of the civil rights movement, clearly implying that bigotry is the reason for the opposition. You more than implied this yourself with your first post in the thread about "rural Missouri." This is principally what my post was about.

All I'm saying is that we don't need bigotry as an explanation when body shame, a frame of mind to which we are all heavily indoctrinated, is a perfectly sufficient explanation. In the south, they opposed blacks going to the same school, eating in the same cafeteria, drinking from the same fountains, using the same playgrounds, etc etc. The fact that this particular protest involves only bathrooms and locker rooms should clue any reasonable person that generic bigotry against transsexuals isn't a necessary explanation.

Actually that statement was meant to convey both the bigotry of the area and the likely puritanical approach to nudity. Let's be serious though, just look at many of the responses in this thread. I am quite confident that bigotry against transsexuals plays a strong part.

Do you honestly think that a teenage girl who doesn't want someone with a penis seeing them undressing must be presumed to harbor animus toward transsexuals? You and DCal seemed to be suggesting that such animus was the only possible explanation when in fact you have another explanation which is wholly sufficient in and of itself. Sure, bigotry might play a role for some of those in opposition here, but we can't just assert it, in knee-jerk fashion, as the only explanation when another quite obvious and sufficient motive is in play.

I'm not asserting it's the ONLY factor, but to think that this is happening absent anti trans bigotry strains credulity.

As to whether this particular transsexual should be allowed in the locker or bathroom, you have a decent point. These issues often involve weighing and balancing the interests of the individual in being free from discrimination against people who may have an objection not necessarily founded on bigotry. With gays, you're talking about excluding them from facilities they have used their entire lives because they have always identified with whatever gender they were biologically born to. Suddenly excluding them because they may have come out as gay at say age 15 is a greater harm to them than not permitting someone to switch to facilities they never used before. This transsexual used male facilities before and is obviously comfortable with them. She can use those facilities or gender neutral facilities. While this isn't a perfect argument or perfect solution, it's the best we can do to balance competing interests here.

Where did you get the idea that she is comfortable with using male facilities? From my experiences with trans friends and acquaintances I strongly suspect this is not accurate.

My own position is that the bathroom should probably be OK because female bathrooms have people doing their business exclusively in closed stalls, but locker-rooms, with open showers and undressing, should not be OK. That's the best I can come up with in addressing this difficult issue.

The bottom line is that we as a society have indoctrinated our children with shame over their naked bodies, especially girls even more so than boys. It's not right to impose that upon them then say they must cast it aside in the name of tolerance, and if they have trouble casting it aside because it is so ingrained, we assume it's because they're intolerant instead of just embarrassed. Yet we know they are embarrassed because we've been telling them to be embarrassed their entire lives.

I simply don't think that one shitty aspect of our culture (body shame) should be used as an excuse for another shitty aspect of our culture. My guess is that this individual is far more afraid of what other people think of her than they are of the reverse.

 

[piasabird]

They are just calling it like they see it. Our college had an issue with this and we have 2 bathrooms on campus that are gender neutral free for all's. Go in at your own risk.

One main problem is a lot of high schools dont have a large enough facilities to put in a gender neutral bathroom or build a third locker room in their gym. It is an unrealistic expectation on the part of a student to expect that.

My rule would be castrate first then go into the girls bathroom or locker room.

Why should the rest of the world have to change Just because one person wants to play dress up with his dollies.

One other option is to force the few odd people you have to go to a education facility that is designed to be gender neutral.

Just put an out house in the parking lot and tell m... gender neutral to use that. Maybe just buy a small trailer.

I dont give a damn if every gender confused person on earth commits suicide.

 

[werepossum]

Yea that is majorally fucked up. We showered naked. It really sucked for the guys with small cocks, they got massive persecution..... thank God I am extremely well endowed.... I never had to suffer that ignomy.

Um . . . yeah . . . me too. As far as you know.

In JH and HS we never showered before or after PE. When I was on the baseball team in JH, we would change into our gear so you might catch a dong out of the corner of your eye, but not during PE.

Dude, that's nasty. Didn't you stink?

It has generally seemed to me that just as people get older they just have fewer fucks to give where modesty is concerned.

To touch on woolfe9998's point above our society has done a pretty bang up job of making kids terrified of their bodies, sexuality, and (to a lesser exert lately) sex in general.

I dunno, when I was young I was naked at most every opportunity. I even had a long conversation in front of two cops buck-ass naked when I got busted making out (technically, we were sleeping after making out) on what SHOULD have been a deserted country road. Nowadays I'm older and fatter and not inclined to put up with all that screaming and crying.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Actually that statement was meant to convey both the bigotry of the area and the likely puritanical approach to nudity. Let's be serious though, just look at many of the responses in this thread. I am quite confident that bigotry against transsexuals plays a strong part.



I'm not asserting it's the ONLY factor, but to think that this is happening absent anti trans bigotry strains credulity.



Where did you get the idea that she is comfortable with using male facilities? From my experiences with trans friends and acquaintances I strongly suspect this is not accurate.



I simply don't think that one shitty aspect of our culture (body shame) should be used as an excuse for another shitty aspect of our culture. My guess is that this individual is far more afraid of what other people think of her than they are of the reverse.

I would agree on most of your points if this were adults we are talking about. These are children we are talking about and it seems from the article that they have spoken and are not comfortable with it or they would not be boycotting. If my 15 year old daughter was not comfortable with it, I would support her, especially if the school has made a neutral bathroom\locker room available, which this school did.

Again, this acceptance is not going to be overnight, and IMO the school did cater to this particular transgender student, which is a step in the right direction.

 

[Jeff7]

Who cares if it's separate as long as it's equally appointed?

Yes, what is really needed is segregation. I seem to recall that worked out brilliantly for this country in the past until some people got all uppity...

Heh, nice.

Yeah, you got me. I'm only opposed to segregation because I'm secretly hoping to see an increase in hate crimes among the youth.

Isolating different groups is never the answer, because it takes away any humanizing element and replaces it with a clinical description of the group you're no longer interacting with. That, in turn, makes it easier to stereotype, and that leads to prejudice, so it compounds the feelings that "they are not like us." You put a bunch of kids together and let them grow together and, oh, hey, looks like one of them is gay; now those other kids have a human element to associate with homosexuality. Yes, you'll still have bigots to deal with, but do you really think taking all the gays away from the bigot is going to cure him of his homophobia?

Governments love to take advantage of that during wartime because it's just so darned effective.

"They" are against us. Demonize the distant enemy.
Most likely, they're just trying to do what your side is doing: Just go about their lives in peace. You never get to see that though.
But, people are extremely easy to manipulate if you can convince them that they're being threatened in some way.

It still goes on today in various forms. There are cries about "the gay agenda," as if they're working day and night to obliterate our society.
Most of them just want a chance to be with people they want to be with, and not face threats of discrimination, bodily harm, or death. I would imagine that that's the case with people who were born somewhat outside of the conventional black&white definition of gender.

 

[werepossum]

They are just calling it like they see it. Our college had an issue with this and we have 2 bathrooms on campus that are gender neutral free for all's. Go in at your own risk.

One main problem is a lot of high schools dont have a large enough facilities to put in a gender neutral bathroom or build a third locker room in their gym. It is an unrealistic expectation on the part of a student to expect that.

My rule would be castrate first then go into the girls bathroom or locker room.

Why should the rest of the world have to change Just because one person wants to play dress up with his dollies.

One other option is to force the few odd people you have to go to a education facility that is designed to be gender neutral.

Just put an out house in the parking lot and tell m... gender neutral to use that. Maybe just buy a small trailer.

I dont give a damn if every gender confused person on earth commits suicide.

Harsh, dude. They aren't necessarily bad people just because their body identity is fucked up, they just have a mental imbalance probably caused by some hormonal or brain abnormality beyond their control. And castration is severe, irreversible, and would cause vast hormonal changes to bodies in which they already are not comfortable.

 

[werepossum]

I would agree on most of your points if this were adults we are talking about. These are children we are talking about and it seems from the article that they have spoken and are not comfortable with it or they would not be boycotting. If my 15 year old daughter was not comfortable with it, I would support her, especially if the school has made a neutral bathroom\locker room available, which this school did.

Again, this acceptance is not going to be overnight, and IMO the school did cater to this particular transgender student, which is a step in the right direction.

Well said. Other people matter too, even if they aren't members of some victim group.

 

[DCal430]

So you all seem to agree those "ladies" I posted should use the same restroom as a 6 year old girl.

 

[nickqt]

This is a huge problem in the United States, and demands our full attention, along with the attention of the US Congress, and the Donald.

 

[Spungo]

Yea that is majorally fucked up. We showered naked. It really sucked for the guys with small cocks, they got massive persecution..... thank God I am extremely well endowed.... I never had to suffer that ignomy.

Serious question: if you guys are not gay, why do all of you have boners in the shower?

 

[justoh]

You can make a new woman from a man's rib, but you can't turn a man into a woman. That would just be weird.

 

[Zorba]

Serious question: if you guys are not gay, why do all of you have boners in the shower?

You can tell how big a dick is without it being hard.

 

[waggy]

I would agree on most of your points if this were adults we are talking about. These are children we are talking about and it seems from the article that they have spoken and are not comfortable with it or they would not be boycotting. If my 15 year old daughter was not comfortable with it, I would support her, especially if the school has made a neutral bathroom\locker room available, which this school did.

Again, this acceptance is not going to be overnight, and IMO the school did cater to this particular transgender student, which is a step in the right direction.

/this.

The rights and feelings of the other girls should not be ignored just for one male who wants ot change in the girls locker room. if he was given a place to change then at this time that is the best thing to happen.

forcing the girls to accept a guy changing with them is the wrong thing to do.

in time perhaps it will be more acceptable and no it's not a perfect answer.

 

[Zorba]

Actually that statement was meant to convey both the bigotry of the area and the likely puritanical approach to nudity. Let's be serious though, just look at many of the responses in this thread. I am quite confident that bigotry against transsexuals plays a strong part.

I'm not asserting it's the ONLY factor, but to think that this is happening absent anti trans bigotry strains credulity.

Where did you get the idea that she is comfortable with using male facilities? From my experiences with trans friends and acquaintances I strongly suspect this is not accurate.

I simply don't think that one shitty aspect of our culture (body shame) should be used as an excuse for another shitty aspect of our culture. My guess is that this individual is far more afraid of what other people think of her than they are of the reverse.

The bigot card is really old. No one is protesting her being at the school. No one is dragging her behind their truck. They just don't think someone that is technically a boy in a dress and wig should be changing in a open room with a bunch of teenage girls.

I think it would be quite a bit different if she was taking hormones, grown out her hair, etc. But even then not many dads are going to want someone with a dick changing in front of their daughters and I doubt many girls want it either. Even if they were fine with her seeing them naked, the dad's aren't going to want their daughters seeing a dick every day.

Further, if all it takes to get in the girls' locker room is a dress and wig, there will be other guys doing just for the view. As an example, a company my wife used to work for allowed shorts, because some guys complained that women could wear dresses and they couldn't wear shorts. Their boss said "well, you can wear a dress too." So a large group of them did for months until they changed the dress code. It isn't that hard to wear a dress for a decent payoff.

Finally, if you are truly above body shame, post naked, timestamped pictures with identification of yourself and girlfriend/wife/sister. I'll be waiting over at /B/. If you are uncomfortable doing that, why should a bunch of high schoolers basically have to do the same thing every day in front of someone that makes them uncomfortable?

I am not sure what the true final solution will be for these matters, but I think offering gender neutral facilities is an effective solution for the time being. Maybe someday we will all be beyond modesty, and we can have 6 year-old girls showering with unrelated 60 year-old men, but in the mean time I think we need to come up with a practical solution that is as fair as possible to everyone involved. It sounds like this school has tried to be fair by offering a gender neutral facility.

Edit: BTW: I fully support transgender, I have zero issue with them, and I hope making the change either emotionally and/or physically will bring peace to them. But I also don't think modesty and prudeness are evil ideals and respect people who value those ideals.

 

[Double Trouble]

The bigot card is really old. No one is protesting her being at the school. No one is dragging her behind their truck. They just don't think someone that is technically a boy in a dress and wig should be changing in a open room with a bunch of teenage girls.

:thumbsup:

Edit: BTW: I fully support transgender, I have zero issue with them, and I hope making the change either emotionally and/or physically will bring peace to them. But I also don't think modesty and prudeness are evil ideals and respect people who value those ideals.

:thumbsup:

Why is modesty somehow a bad thing now?

 

[Double Trouble]

It makes no sense to me why the rights of one kid to feel "comfortable" (in the locker room of his choice) supersedes the rights of all the other kids to feel comfortable in the locker room without someone of the opposite sex. I don't care how he identifies, he is biologically a male. If the girls are uncomfortable with a guy in their locker room - and clearly some of them are - then why should his right to comfort supersede theirs?

What makes this case even worse is that the school was very accommodating. Instead of telling the crazy guy to get lost, they provided him with a gender neutral option, but he wasn't OK with that, he had to insist on pushing his mental disorder on everyone else.

This society has gotten so messed up with everyone whining and playing their victim card it's amazing we get anything done anymore.

 

[waggy]

It makes no sense to me why the rights of one kid to feel "comfortable" (in the locker room of his choice) supersedes the rights of all the other kids to feel comfortable in the locker room without someone of the opposite sex. I don't care how he identifies, he is biologically a male. If the girls are uncomfortable with a guy in their locker room - and clearly some of them are - then why should his right to comfort supersede theirs?

exactly.

I feel sorry for the guy. I fully support trans kids. they are going through a rough time. I also feel bad for the girls who are forced to say "hey we don't want a guy changing with us" because they are made to look like bad kids.

In reality though the best thing is to give that kid his own changing room. it's not a perfect answere at all. At this time in society it is the best they are going to get.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

The bigot card is really old. No one is protesting her being at the school. No one is dragging her behind their truck. They just don't think someone that is technically a boy in a dress and wig should be changing in a open room with a bunch of teenage girls.

:thumbsup:

But I also don't think modesty and prudeness are evil ideals and respect people who value those ideals.

:thumbsup:

Great post - you nailed it.