Many Missouri HS students walk out to protest transgender using wrong bathroom

[realibrad]

Serious question: if you guys are not gay, why do all of you have boners in the shower?

From about 7 grade until after High School, I would get them all the time for no reason. During a normal school day I would get maybe 5-10 easy.

Do you only get them when aroused? If so that must be nice.

 

[Aikouka]

Honestly, I think a lot of men are closet gay. I think it was Joe Rogan's podcast where this was really put into perspective. The guest said something like "my friend would brag that his cum could shoot as high as the ceiling" and Joe said something like "he's trying to trick you into watching him jerk off."
/mind blown

I don't think that's necessarily the case. While men are not supposed to show weakness, which is why emotional interaction between men isn't really that common (e.g. dudes just "hugging it out"), we tend to be much more social about sexual aspects. I mean... look at the example provided. This isn't some dude talking about his ejaculate itself, he's talking about some feat that he's accomplished with his ejaculate. That is something you'd expect a guy to do -- turn something into some sort of competition.

 

[BoberFett]

From about 7 grade until after High School, I would get them all the time for no reason. During a normal school day I would get maybe 5-10 easy.

Do you only get them when aroused? If so that must be nice.

I'm pretty sure Spungo is a female.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Serious question: if you guys are not gay, why do all of you have boners in the shower?

It's not gay until they touch.

 

[Aikouka]

It's not gay until they touch.

But how else do you compare them but put them side-by-side!? D: Remember... we are men! All must be a competition to determine the decisive winner, the king of the hill!

 

[Darwin333]

As much as I am for LGBT rights, if there are gender neutral restrooms reasonably available this shouldn't be an issue. HS is a bit early to be forcing girls to share a bathroom with a boy when there are other options readily available.

 

[Gardener]

It is illegal for a male to expose himself to women.

Lindsey Graham?

 

[woolfe9998]

Actually that statement was meant to convey both the bigotry of the area and the likely puritanical approach to nudity. Let's be serious though, just look at many of the responses in this thread. I am quite confident that bigotry against transsexuals plays a strong part.

I'm not sure how the bigotry of some people in this thread is evidence of anyone's bigotry besides there's.

I'm not asserting it's the ONLY factor, but to think that this is happening absent anti trans bigotry strains credulity.

And I'm not saying body shame is the only factor here. In fact, I'd be surprised if there was no bigotry involved. What I'm saying is that body shame is wholly sufficient in and of itself to explain the reaction, and therefore the merit of the objection should be considered in light of that motive.

Where did you get the idea that she is comfortable with using male facilities? From my experiences with trans friends and acquaintances I strongly suspect this is not accurate.

I got the idea because she used them her entire life prior to a few months before this? Maybe she always hated it. I dunno.

I simply don't think that one shitty aspect of our culture (body shame) should be used as an excuse for another shitty aspect of our culture. My guess is that this individual is far more afraid of what other people think of her than they are of the reverse.

"Shitty" or not, body shame isn't the same thing as bigotry. We are all indoctrinated into body shame. It's just a reality in this society or pretty much any other for that matter. It exists to varying degrees throughout virtually all human civilization. And it isn't used to justify bigotry. I'm pointing out that it is a wholly plausible explanation for the reaction.

I have a daughter now in her 20's. She's very LBGT tolerant, to the point where's she quite PC about it, more so than me. Yet I doubt she would have been comfortable with this. Anyone with experience with teenage girls knows that it is expected that most of them will be uncomfortable with something like this.

 

[VRAMdemon]

No, the 'bigot card' is pretty much spot on. Just so you know, in order to be bigoted against someone that doesn't mean you have to be attempting to expel them or murder them.

Also, as previously mentioned this is an interesting intersection between anti-trans bigotry and American puritanism.



This is silly and you know it.

The idea that men will claim to be transexual in order to get into women's locker rooms is frequently trotted out as a problem despite there being exactly zero evidence this actually takes place. (not to mention policies that allow trans people to use their preferred facilities don't work that way anyway)



Because I wouldn't violate my girlfriend's privacy and post pictures to the internet that could negatively impact her life I have to accept that body shaming is ok? lolwut. Body shaming is stupid, and no thanks, I won't be posting those pictures. The comparison between that and sharing a locker room is flat out stupid.



I'm not against gender neutral facilities in principle either, but I can see why a trans person wouldn't want to use them. (they would basically be the trans person facilities.) I get that our prudishness (which is a bad thing, IMO) won't go away overnight, but I see little reason to cater to it.

Again...these are children we are talking about here, not men, not women. If my 15 yr old daughter would come home upset about something like this, I'm surely not going to accuse her of "bigotry". Sorry, that's ridiculous in the context of properly counseling a child about this issue.

 

[OutHouse]

Again...these are children we are talking about here, not men, not women. If my 15 yr old daughter would come home upset about something like this, I'm surely not going to accuse her of "bigotry". Sorry, that's ridiculous in the context of properly counseling a child.

I agree

 

[Jaskalas]

You don't have any concerns about increased sexual harassment? Are we going to install metal detectors a locker rooms to prevent boys from taking photos of changing girls?

This country has a lot of medieval beliefs of the human body to work through.

 

[Zorba]

No, the 'bigot card' is pretty much spot on. Just so you know, in order to be bigoted against someone that doesn't mean you have to be attempting to expel them or murder them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

Bigot: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc

Yes, there are few in this thread that would fall into that. But most people have shown they have no dislike of the girl, but a dislike of idea of sharing a locker room. You however, do meet the definition of being bigoted against people that value modesty.

This is silly and you know it.

The idea that men will claim to be transexual in order to get into women's locker rooms is frequently trotted out as a problem despite there being exactly zero evidence this actually takes place. (not to mention policies that allow trans people to use their preferred facilities don't work that way anyway)

It depends on the barriers, if it is putting on a dress and wig for a week, I know I would've done it. Hell, I probably still would if it got me into a college locker room. If it is living as a women for a year, then yeah no body will do it. So as long as you are okay with requiring "proof" of transgenderedness, then yeah it is silly.

Because I wouldn't violate my girlfriend's privacy and post pictures to the internet that could negatively impact her life I have to accept that body shaming is ok? lolwut. Body shaming is stupid, and no thanks, I won't be posting those pictures. The comparison between that and sharing a locker room is flat out stupid.

So your girlfriend's privacy, is import, but the privacy of ~30 teenage girls in Missouri is not only stupid, but bigoted? Obviously you support modesty in regards to yourself, but not in others.

I'm not against gender neutral facilities in principle either, but I can see why a trans person wouldn't want to use them. (they would basically be the trans person facilities.) I get that our prudishness (which is a bad thing, IMO) won't go away overnight, but I see little reason to cater to it.

I assume most neutral gender facility would just be a private restroom. For example, my gym has a private, single person bathroom/locker room that I think was designed for ADA. I would assume that a transgendered person could also us that facility in the gym, without it feeling like the "transgender only" bathroom. Heck, I use it from time to time when I don't want to walk all the way to the back of the normal locker room.

 

[Cozarkian]

This country has a lot of medieval beliefs of the human body to work through.

You seriously think teenage girls should be exposed to having boys hoot when they walk to the shower, be subjected to multiple offers to shower together, help her dry off, help her get undressed, have her clothes stolen and thrown around so she has to play keep-away naked, have her ass slapped in her underwear, and have to worry about people trying to take nude photos of her and sharing them, because her desire to be modest and private is medieval?

Hell, let's just have sex period where kids take turns sleeping with each other because the desire to have emotional intimacy before physical intimacy is so medieval.

 

[OrByte]

exactly.

I feel sorry for the guy. I fully support trans kids. they are going through a rough time. I also feel bad for the girls who are forced to say "hey we don't want a guy changing with us" because they are made to look like bad kids.

In reality though the best thing is to give that kid his own changing room. it's not a perfect answere at all. At this time in society it is the best they are going to get.

I can't believe I agree with you



My daughter (17 and in high school) says she wouldn't want to see a male body in the locker room...the locker room is tough enough as it is with body image issues.

She said, he would not feel any more welcome than he already is as a transgender being accepted as a transgender. His friends might consider him a "girl" and he will have a circle of people around him that support that.

But his classmates and student body will only see him as transgender.

The monkeysphere cannot afford him any more sympathy, leniency in this matter...

 

[1prophet]

No, the 'bigot card' is pretty much spot on. Just so you know, in order to be bigoted against someone that doesn't mean you have to be attempting to expel them or murder them.

So young teenage girls that are not comfortable with and opposed to sharing locker rooms, showers, bathrooms with transgender males are bigots now?

 

[woolfe9998]

Just as people tend to pull out the slippery slope argument, I do think people tend to claim that others are bigoted way too often and usually without merit. Now, let's be clear, will you find someone at that school that's definitely bigoted against transgendered individuals? Sure. I'm not trying to state that they don't exist, but rather that claims of bigotry tend to be far too blanketed to be legit. To be bigoted against this girl, they'd have to be acting simply because of her transgendered state.

Now, I know what you're going to say... "But aikouka, they are doing it because she's transgendered!" I don't believe that's the case, and that's not what these other posters are suggesting. At least from what I've gathered reading this, the issue is that when this girl is in the locker room, you're seeing someone who's mentally a female and physically a male. It isn't the combination (i.e. being a pre-op/hormonal transgender) that they have an issue with, it's that there's someone that's physically a male.

Do I wish this girl could find more acceptance? Of course. Do I blame any of the other girls for not wanting to see someone that has the physical aspects of a male in their bathroom? I don't think I can blame them for that. Although, I'm not sure if most guys would complain about the reverse.

Yes, exactly.

Earlier today, I talked to my 20 something daughter (now in grad school) about this. The answers I got were mostly what I expected but with a little twist. First of all, she is very pro LGBT rights and that very much includes transgenders.

She said that she would have been uncomfortable with this if the trans was attracted to females but not if she wasn't. Similarly, she said a gay male would not concern her. Then I asked about lesbians, and she said no, it wouldn't bother her at all. I said I thought she was being inconsistent. She had to think about it a second, then she said, "well, because guys, I mean people with penises, are pervs." With further questioning I discovered that by "perv" she meant voyeuristic.

I couldn't detect a hint of anti-LGBT in her answers. She's obviously comfortable with a gay male but not a straight male in that situation and has no trouble with a trans who is attracted to men or a lesbian. I thought she was being a tad chauvinistic against biological males in that she might have been over-generalizing a bit. But she's largely correct - almost anyone with a penis is easily aroused by visual stimuli. It's why both straight and gay men watch tons more porn than gay or straight women watch.

I don't think we must assume that a straight guy would pretend to be trans to get a sneak peak. They'd probably drill a hole through a wall and risk expulsion before taking on that kind of social stigma. But a bio male who is attracted to girls and is legitimately trans could well become aroused even if that wasn't the point. Indeed, I'd be surprised if she didn't become aroused. And regardless of whether that is happening, the girls are going to assume it is.

I have trouble putting this down to bigotry when these same girls would obviously have a problem if she, before transitioning, had walked in to the locker room as a straight guy. They would have protested out of embarrassment and no one would have assumed them to be bigoted. It's not as if her sexual proclivities changed when he put on the wig and they know this.

 

[Darwin333]

Considering the proportion of the population that is gay, any locker room for either gender likely already has several people in it who would be sexually attracted to the other people in it. Should we ban gay people from locker rooms? Force them to use the other one?

So should we make allow anyone of any sex to use any high school bathroom that they please? I would have never used the guys bathroom in high school if I could have gotten away with using the girls. Multiply that by about 10 for the locker room and showers.

There have to be some sort of boundaries and I personally think that children under 18 years, or still in high school, should be the very least of those boundaries. Set up gender neutral bathrooms for the LGBT's but if you got a dick you shouldn't be in a high school girls bathroom while it has high school girls in it.

 

[werepossum]

Just as people tend to pull out the slippery slope argument, I do think people tend to claim that others are bigoted way too often and usually without merit. Now, let's be clear, will you find someone at that school that's definitely bigoted against transgendered individuals? Sure. I'm not trying to state that they don't exist, but rather that claims of bigotry tend to be far too blanketed to be legit. To be bigoted against this girl, they'd have to be acting simply because of her transgendered state.

Now, I know what you're going to say... "But aikouka, they are doing it because she's transgendered!" I don't believe that's the case, and that's not what these other posters are suggesting. At least from what I've gathered reading this, the issue is that when this girl is in the locker room, you're seeing someone who's mentally a female and physically a male. It isn't the combination (i.e. being a pre-op/hormonal transgender) that they have an issue with, it's that there's someone that's physically a male.

Do I wish this girl could find more acceptance? Of course. Do I blame any of the other girls for not wanting to see someone that has the physical aspects of a male in their bathroom? I don't think I can blame them for that. Although, I'm not sure if most guys would complain about the reverse.

Well said, and thanks for your input.

From about 7 grade until after High School, I would get them all the time for no reason. During a normal school day I would get maybe 5-10 easy.

Do you only get them when aroused? If so that must be nice.

True, but a room full of naked dudes is a pretty strong boner killer.

 

[mikeymikec]

So should we make allow anyone of any sex to use any high school bathroom that they please? I would have never used the guys bathroom in high school if I could have gotten away with using the girls. Multiply that by about 10 for the locker room and showers.

Including "pretending to be a girl", really? Aside from the very small chance of getting away with ogling girls, you would have run the risk of the other (much more likely) possibilities (or any combination thereof):

a) Frequently getting beaten the shit out of by other boys and bulled for pretending to be a girl
b) Getting caught, outed to the entire school as a creep and very likely disciplinary action taken against you by the school as well as law enforcement
c) Immortalised on the Internet as a boy pretending to be a girl to ogle girls
d) Ending up with a criminal record and as a sex offender.

 

[werepossum]

Including "pretending to be a girl", really? Aside from the very small chance of getting away with ogling girls, you would have run the risk of the other (much more likely) possibilities (or any combination thereof):

a) Frequently getting beaten the shit out of by other boys and bulled for pretending to be a girl
b) Getting caught, outed to the entire school as a creep and very likely disciplinary action taken against you by the school as well as law enforcement
c) Immortalised on the Internet as a boy pretending to be a girl to ogle girls
d) Ending up with a criminal record and as a sex offender.

For the last three, none of that can happen here as he has government's enthusiastic blessing. It's only the girls who are complaining. For the first, any boy wearing a dress to get into the girls' locker room only needs a camera phone to be elected prom king AND queen by the other boys.

 

[mikeymikec]

For the last three, none of that can happen here as he has government's enthusiastic blessing. It's only the girls who are complaining.

I was responding to the guy making the comment, not about the person in the OP article.

For the first, any boy wearing a dress to get into the girls' locker room only needs a camera phone to be elected prom king AND queen by the other boys.

Well, if that's true, that brings in to question the fucked up culture that encourages such behaviour. I don't think it would have been the case in any school I've been to or the schools of anyone I know.

 

[fskimospy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

Bigot: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc

Yes, there are few in this thread that would fall into that. But most people have shown they have no dislike of the girl, but a dislike of idea of sharing a locker room. You however, do meet the definition of being bigoted against people that value modesty.

You have literally no way of knowing that they are not bigoted. Considering well established attitudes towards trans people in the US it is quite likely that they are.

It depends on the barriers, if it is putting on a dress and wig for a week, I know I would've done it. Hell, I probably still would if it got me into a college locker room. If it is living as a women for a year, then yeah no body will do it. So as long as you are okay with requiring "proof" of transgenderedness, then yeah it is silly.

There is no need to require proof. This is what school administration is for.

So your girlfriend's privacy, is import, but the privacy of ~30 teenage girls in Missouri is not only stupid, but bigoted? Obviously you support modesty in regards to yourself, but not in others.

It is baffling that you keep trying to use this obviously dumb comparison. Having a locker room that trans people can use is in no way, shape, or form the same thing as choosing to distribute naked pictures of someone on the internet. It is particularly funny that someone making a modesty argument doesn't get the massive contextual difference there, considering how much of modesty is about context.

Firthermore, it has nothing to do with her modesty, it has to do with the attitudes of society that come with those pictures. (Stupid attitudes, btw).

I assume most neutral gender facility would just be a private restroom. For example, my gym has a private, single person bathroom/locker room that I think was designed for ADA. I would assume that a transgendered person could also us that facility in the gym, without it feeling like the "transgender only" bathroom. Heck, I use it from time to time when I don't want to walk all the way to the back of the normal locker room.

You use it electively.

 

[wetech]

It is baffling that you keep trying to use this obviously dumb comparison. Having a locker room that trans people can use is in no way, shape, or form the same thing as choosing to distribute naked pictures of someone on the internet. It is particularly funny that someone making a modesty argument doesn't get the massive contextual difference there, considering how much of modesty is about context.

Firthermore, it has nothing to do with her modesty, it has to do with the attitudes of society that come with those pictures. (Stupid attitudes, btw).

The comparison isn't as outlandish as you're making it out to be. We're talking about forcing an entire class of minors to change (and potentially shower) in front of someone that they may not be comfortable doing so, multiple times per week. I think that's a pretty gross violation of privacy. I know we're supposed to be accepting and inclusive, but is a 14-15 year old equipped to handle this? If I had to wager, I'd say a good portion would be of the mindset of, "I'm being forced to change in front of a boy." No bigotry involved.

 

[Ackmed]

Calling it bigotry because these girls don't want to change in front of a GUY is just idiotic. Plain and simple. This dude needs to shut the fuck up, and use the bathroom the school made for him. I can't believe people actually support this attention whore and his trying to impose his will over countless others.

 

[fskimospy]

The comparison isn't as outlandish as you're making it out to be. We're talking about forcing an entire class of minors to change (and potentially shower) in front of someone that they may not be comfortable doing so, multiple times per week. I think that's a pretty gross violation of privacy. I know we're supposed to be accepting and inclusive, but is a 14-15 year old equipped to handle this?

Maybe you can explain to me how to remain logically consistent if you support someone using facilities where others may not feel comfortable (but not necessarily forced to change in front of them) That then I must support posting naked pictures of someone on the internet into a forum where those pictures can be used to damage them professionally, socially, and potentially open them to stalking by one of the most toxic communities that exists?

I think any reasonable person would see that such a comparison is absolutely ridiculous.

If I had to wager, I'd say a good portion would be of the mindset of, "I'm being forced to change in front of a boy." No bigotry involved.

I'm sure that not very many would come right out and say "I think trans people are evil/bad/gross". That doesn't mean a lot though. Plenty of people say they have no problem with black people, but their actual behavior shows otherwise.

Also, without knowing the details here it's unlikely that anyone will be forced to change in front of this individual who feels uncomfortable.