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Just finished watching "Sicko"

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shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Why does this thread only have one star?

I fail. :(
Because people are paid to go on the internet and try to downplay everything that is against them. Additionally, people can be VERY afraid of anything that is not on their "side" of politics. It is a sad system and people work VERY hard to try to downplay and spin everything against them. It runs rampant on these forums and many many others.
Wow... way to throw away what little credibility you had left on these forums. Unfounded accusations of paid shills are pretty much the ultimate hallmark of the tinfoil beanie troll. Welcome to those ranks!


Sicko was par for the course Moore. He starts off with some good premises and makes some good points, and then throws it all away on obvious lies and glossed-over generalizations. Yes, the US health care system desperately needs fixing, but no, it's not all sunshine and roses everywhere else.
Like in BFC, where he rightly calls the US media to task for fearmongering and improper correlation (which is the title of the movie), and then fearmongers himself in favor of gun control, proposes a singular silly idea for how to bring about gun control (most of the real "gun nuts" already make their own bullets), and labels a former Civil Rights leader a racist.
His style makes sense if you consider that he's just propagandizing to the typical knee-jerk member of the United States of Amnesia, but if you're actually aware of the facts and the circumstances, you can easily see through his nonsense and recognize that the real solutions are nowhere near as simplistic black-and-white as he tries to make them out to be. Complex problems are made worse when you try to fix them with simple solutions.
Well, since you failed to meet my challenge, you can't expect people to take you seriously...

Feel free to attempt to actually use your opinions(I don't believe for a second you actually saw it yourself) by actually citing your issues with the American section of the movie...

Feel free to address:

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.

Plus, feel free to discuss any of the real life stories told and why you think them bogus.

And don't waste our time linking to some sites instead of using your own opinions... Remember, you claim to have seen it.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I am just astonished that Pabster would cut and run on giving his personal analysis of the movie he claims to see and thoroughly criticize. It is so unlike him!
If I felt like giving a personal analysis, I would. I don't. And something tells me you would dismiss it with no thought, as you do everything else. I'm not a movie critic, and don't pretend to be one. I just call bullshit when I see it, and Sicko stinks to high heaven.

If anyone has any doubts that people are paid to come and throw around insinuations regarding political opposition on forums, look no further than this thread.
You're certainly making one wonder if your paycheck doesn't say MOORE on the signature line.
Yeah, you never saw the movie and have no true opinions of your own. You never give any analysis yourself. Just one liners, denials, insinuation, and propaganda!

You lost the challenge because you are a liar. You never saw the movie. People like you use the internet to manipulate the masses via propaganda.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
The only thing one really needs to know about the movie is that Canadians and Europeans have been VERY critical of the rosy picture that Moore painted of their healthcare systems.

And IMO, troll accusations of "paid shill" should be punished with vacations by the mods.
Since he can't back up any claims and he lied about seeing the movie, like you have.. paid shills are very very possible. He is the textbook case. SO far he has made about 4-5 smear posts here and has yet to actually give ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE from the movie to support his smearing.

It isn't difficult to tell that he and others are shills by the fact that they insinuate, smear, and run without ever actually giving real opinions backed up with why they think something is the case.

I even gave him examples to respond to and he(and you) can't... Forums are SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT DISCUSSIONS.. not smearing and running... which is allowed way too often here.

One liners should not be allowed.

I mean seriously.. look at the 6 pages.

All the people who didn't like the movie" either post links to OTHER PEOPLE's opinions or can't actually identify a single aspect of the movie and just smear and run. This is ok to you? I even laid out the main pointsof the majority of the movie(the parts about america) and the people who "hate" the movie STILL can't respond to them.

What else should be thought of these people besides shills?
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
You lost the challenge because you are a liar. You never saw the movie. People like you use the internet to manipulate the masses via propaganda.
Don't tell me what I did or didn't do.

I saw the film in its entirety.

Now how much are you collecting from Moore & Co. for your shilling?
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
You lost the challenge because you are a liar. You never saw the movie. People like you use the internet to manipulate the masses via propaganda.
Don't tell me what I did or didn't do.

I saw the film in its entirety.

Now how much are you collecting from Moore & Co. for your shilling?
Yet you can't respond to a single thing posted. I provided my opinions with the facts behind them. You haven't posted a single thing...

You can accuse me of anything you'd like.. I provided the facts.. you just provide the smear. Name ONE mistake I've made in addressing the movie. That would correctly show my "shilling"...

You can't and won't just like you can't cite a single instance from the movie or respond to my neatly laid out points. They are facts.. they aren't opinions.

You could easily prove it but you choose not to.. and you expect people to take you seriously?

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.

Respond to them or admit you are a liar.
This is a discussion forum.. discuss.. NOT smear and run without a single thread of evidence behind you.

Why should anyone post to anything? There isn't any actual discussion here.... I issue a challenge and all I get is responses lik:

NO NO! I don't have to show why I think anything! The sky is green because I say so! Now "move along!"

This is what society is reduced to.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Yet you can't respond to a single thing posted. I provided my opinions with the facts behind them. You haven't posted a single thing...
You're right, you've posted opinion, not fact. Like most far-left nutjobs, you seem incapable of discerning the clear difference between them.

Sicko is far-left propaganda of the most disgusting sort. It attempts to perpetuate a left-wing talking point that the health care system in this country has failed, and that socialized medicine is the only alternative. No one will deny there are problems with the current systems, but to suggest we should scrap the best health care system in the world -- and then use propaganda films from a con artist to support that viewpoint - is lame, disgusting, and intellectually dishonest (just like those who create and propagate the bullshit.)

This will be my last post on the subject, as I've made my opinion of both Moore and the film we're discussing quite clear. You may continue with your shilling and propaganda as you see fit.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Yet you can't respond to a single thing posted. I provided my opinions with the facts behind them. You haven't posted a single thing...
You're right, you've posted opinion, not fact. Like most far-left nutjobs, you seem incapable of discerning the clear difference between them.

Sicko is far-left propaganda of the most disgusting sort. It attempts to perpetuate a left-wing talking point that the health care system in this country has failed, and that socialized medicine is the only alternative. No one will deny there are problems with the current systems, but to suggest we should scrap the best health care system in the world -- and then use propaganda films from a con artist to support that viewpoint - is lame, disgusting, and intellectually dishonest (just like those who create and propagate the bullshit.)

This will be my last post on the subject, as I've made my opinion of both Moore and the film we're discussing quite clear. You may continue with your shilling and propaganda as you see fit.
Facts in the movie-

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.


Those are not opinions.

An opinion is created after hearing these facts.

You actually have no facts behind your opinion. But how can you, you never saw the movie.



"scrap the best health care system in the world "

No, that'd be France with UHC. We are right next to Slovenia. We let our people die of curable diseases and dump poor people off at the curb. Only those with money get "the best."

Our insurance and pharmaceutical companies make record profits though.. and that's what counts in America!
 

gururu2

Senior member
Oct 14, 2007
686
1
81
Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Facts in the movie-

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.


Those are not opinions.

An opinion is created after hearing these facts.

You actually have no facts behind your opinion. But how can you, you never saw the movie.
Oprah actually had an episode where she had Moore, a former insurance approver and a current insurance executive. all of these things were substantiated among the discussion. it was really quite pathetic watching that eloquent, pretty, articulate insurance spokesperson fall so hard.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: gururu2
Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Facts in the movie-

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.


Those are not opinions.

An opinion is created after hearing these facts.

You actually have no facts behind your opinion. But how can you, you never saw the movie.
Oprah actually had an episode where she had Moore, a former insurance approver and a current insurance executive. all of these things were substantiated among the discussion. it was really quite pathetic watching that eloquent, pretty, articulate insurance spokesperson fall so hard.
People in this country that have dealt with healthcare, know how fucked up it is... it isn't exactly a shocker. The movie just shows what people knew all along but shows it on a wider scale to show people that isn't just them that gets screwed.

It doesn't matter if your are republican, democrat, or independent. It doesn't matter if you are a doctor(like my father) or someone with health insurance or not... it is heartbreaking to see others' true stories and how much money goes into denying claims to boost profits. It is depressing watching how much money our politicans get paid to keep the current system intact. Even Hillary Clinton, who pushed for uhc has gotten bought out(whoops, what happened to my shilling!).

Did you know Moore wasn't let into the NY stock exchange? Insurance and pharmaceutical companies have a lot to fear from change. The U.S. is the "greatest nation in the world" willing to allow profits to trump their own peoples' welfare.

I have money and I have health insurance due to my wife being a teacher(underpaid shit job). If she didn't get insurance through work, I(self-employed) would not get covered for any of my problems(sinus, back, neck, stomach) if I had to get my own insurance. Even WITHOUT my problems being covered, it would cost a fortune. Because my wife is taking off more than 3 months maturnity leave, our cost for health insurance is going up from $120 a month to over $1000 a month. Luckily, we could afford it...

$1000 for 3 people is 12000 a year.. This does not count prescriptions and copays... Oh no! France has a higher tax than us! What do you think percentage wise is $12k+ a year for the American family with a median income of $40k!?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,623
1,109
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Yet you can't respond to a single thing posted. I provided my opinions with the facts behind them. You haven't posted a single thing...
You're right, you've posted opinion, not fact. Like most far-left nutjobs, you seem incapable of discerning the clear difference between them.

Sicko is far-left propaganda of the most disgusting sort. It attempts to perpetuate a left-wing talking point that the health care system in this country has failed, and that socialized medicine is the only alternative. No one will deny there are problems with the current systems, but to suggest we should scrap the best health care system in the world -- and then use propaganda films from a con artist to support that viewpoint - is lame, disgusting, and intellectually dishonest (just like those who create and propagate the bullshit.)

This will be my last post on the subject, as I've made my opinion of both Moore and the film we're discussing quite clear. You may continue with your shilling and propaganda as you see fit.
Facts in the movie-

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.


Those are not opinions.

An opinion is created after hearing these facts.

You actually have no facts behind your opinion. But how can you, you never saw the movie.



"scrap the best health care system in the world "

No, that'd be France with UHC. We are right next to Slovenia. We let our people die of curable diseases and dump poor people off at the curb. Only those with money get "the best."

Our insurance and pharmaceutical companies make record profits though.. and that's what counts in America!
Don't be surprised. I've never seen Pabster reach beyond knee-jerk sound-bite talking-point nonsense in all my time on these forums. Fear not, there are many rational conservative voices here yet. The most important ingredient to a sound and honest debate is to honestly and completely examine the issues from every conceivable angle. That means playing devil's advocate, and taking the points of the opposition into real consideration. Simply dismissing them out of hand makes one look like an idiot at worst, and a useless sheep at best.

Oh, btw : our finest government-run entity : our Military. Performs with excellence each and every time the call goes out, regardless of the idiotic sycophantic civilian politicians who abuse it for their own ends.

Personally, I think our health care situation in this country is dire. It's the perfect example of runaway megacorps destroying the good idea of an open-market system. Ask yourself, is any executive worth hundreds, hell, even tens of millions of dollars a year? Couldn't this money be better applied to employee pension plans, more R&D, better facilities, lower product pricing, etc? What good does it do to the good of the country to concentrate such ludicrous wealth upon these stuffed suits?

It's tricky, because I'm a paleoconservative, and I believe in the smallest government possible, within reason. But I do believe that the government is necessary, even crucial, to maintaining order and availability of what I believe to be critical cornerstones of modern life.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,244
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Why does this thread only have one star?

I fail. :(
Because people are paid to go on the internet and try to downplay everything that is against them. Additionally, people can be VERY afraid of anything that is not on their "side" of politics. It is a sad system and people work VERY hard to try to downplay and spin everything against them. It runs rampant on these forums and many many others.
Wow... way to throw away what little credibility you had left on these forums. Unfounded accusations of paid shills are pretty much the ultimate hallmark of the tinfoil beanie troll. Welcome to those ranks!


Sicko was par for the course Moore. He starts off with some good premises and makes some good points, and then throws it all away on obvious lies and glossed-over generalizations. Yes, the US health care system desperately needs fixing, but no, it's not all sunshine and roses everywhere else.
Like in BFC, where he rightly calls the US media to task for fearmongering and improper correlation (which is the title of the movie), and then fearmongers himself in favor of gun control, proposes a singular silly idea for how to bring about gun control (most of the real "gun nuts" already make their own bullets), and labels a former Civil Rights leader a racist.
His style makes sense if you consider that he's just propagandizing to the typical knee-jerk member of the United States of Amnesia, but if you're actually aware of the facts and the circumstances, you can easily see through his nonsense and recognize that the real solutions are nowhere near as simplistic black-and-white as he tries to make them out to be. Complex problems are made worse when you try to fix them with simple solutions.
Well, since you failed to meet my challenge, you can't expect people to take you seriously...

Feel free to attempt to actually use your opinions(I don't believe for a second you actually saw it yourself) by actually citing your issues with the American section of the movie...

Feel free to address:

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.

Plus, feel free to discuss any of the real life stories told and why you think them bogus.

And don't waste our time linking to some sites instead of using your own opinions... Remember, you claim to have seen it.
Your mistake is your religious-like faith that health care will save your life. It won't. Everyone dies -- claims, profits, or not. Get used to it, because it is inevitable for all of us. You should be thankful that someone cares enough about profits to try to save your life for the sake of them. Otherwise, they'd do what the ancients did and throw you out into the cold.

BTW, there was no "challenge" of yours for me to meet. That our current health care system is flawed is no reason for me to rush into the arms of your Savior Jesus Moore. That's just fscking silly. I explained the issue. That the current situation is flawed is no reason for me or anyone to accept a knee-jerk solution, especially one built upon rosy pictures and lies.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Why does this thread only have one star?

I fail. :(
Because people are paid to go on the internet and try to downplay everything that is against them. Additionally, people can be VERY afraid of anything that is not on their "side" of politics. It is a sad system and people work VERY hard to try to downplay and spin everything against them. It runs rampant on these forums and many many others.
Wow... way to throw away what little credibility you had left on these forums. Unfounded accusations of paid shills are pretty much the ultimate hallmark of the tinfoil beanie troll. Welcome to those ranks!


Sicko was par for the course Moore. He starts off with some good premises and makes some good points, and then throws it all away on obvious lies and glossed-over generalizations. Yes, the US health care system desperately needs fixing, but no, it's not all sunshine and roses everywhere else.
Like in BFC, where he rightly calls the US media to task for fearmongering and improper correlation (which is the title of the movie), and then fearmongers himself in favor of gun control, proposes a singular silly idea for how to bring about gun control (most of the real "gun nuts" already make their own bullets), and labels a former Civil Rights leader a racist.
His style makes sense if you consider that he's just propagandizing to the typical knee-jerk member of the United States of Amnesia, but if you're actually aware of the facts and the circumstances, you can easily see through his nonsense and recognize that the real solutions are nowhere near as simplistic black-and-white as he tries to make them out to be. Complex problems are made worse when you try to fix them with simple solutions.
Well, since you failed to meet my challenge, you can't expect people to take you seriously...

Feel free to attempt to actually use your opinions(I don't believe for a second you actually saw it yourself) by actually citing your issues with the American section of the movie...

Feel free to address:

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.

Plus, feel free to discuss any of the real life stories told and why you think them bogus.

And don't waste our time linking to some sites instead of using your own opinions... Remember, you claim to have seen it.
Your mistake is your religious-like faith that health care will save your life. It won't. Everyone dies -- claims, profits, or not. Get used to it, because it is inevitable for all of us. You should be thankful that someone cares enough about profits to try to save your life for the sake of them. Otherwise, they'd do what the ancients did and throw you out into the cold.

BTW, there was no "challenge" of yours for me to meet. That our current health care system is flawed is no reason for me to rush into the arms of your Savior Jesus Moore. That's just fscking silly. I explained the issue. That the current situation is flawed is no reason for me or anyone to accept a knee-jerk solution, especially one built upon rosy pictures and lies.
I asked people to address the above points in the movie.. That is the challenge. ..and since you never saw it, you can't... so you just smear and run.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,987
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Your mistake is your religious-like faith that health care will save your life. It won't. Everyone dies -- claims, profits, or not. Get used to it, because it is inevitable for all of us. You should be thankful that someone cares enough about profits to try to save your life for the sake of them. Otherwise, they'd do what the ancients did and throw you out into the cold.

BTW, there was no "challenge" of yours for me to meet. That our current health care system is flawed is no reason for me to rush into the arms of your Savior Jesus Moore. That's just fscking silly. I explained the issue. That the current situation is flawed is no reason for me or anyone to accept a knee-jerk solution, especially one built upon rosy pictures and lies.
QFT. :thumbsup:
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,244
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I asked people to address the above points in the movie.. That is the challenge. ..and since you never saw it, you can't... so you just smear and run.
Anyone can handpick isolated instances. It's a rather disingenuous way of lying that the media does all day every day, and is Moore's favorite propaganda technique (hence my earlier reference about Moore's hypocrisy in BFC). That's people here have been trying to tell you, and which you have been ignoring by calling them paid shills, or saying that they haven't seen the movie. Whatever.

The simple truth is that the US health care system, while flawed, is not as bad as Moore makes it out to be. And that the Canadian and Europeans systems do not work as utopist rosy as Moore made them out to be (as anyone of them, including the Australian OP, could tell you).
For example, the French system almost bankrupted the entire country. "Free" healthcare doesn't work if even the government can't afford it.
Or go back about 20 or years when the British system was rampant with corruption, abuses, and a low standard of care.
And in Canada, where 5% of the population doesn't have a doctor (due to short supply), and where people are forced to wait months for treatment.

IF the solution to our health care problems were as simple as putting government in charge of it, I'd be all for it. But it's not that simple.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I asked people to address the above points in the movie.. That is the challenge. ..and since you never saw it, you can't... so you just smear and run.
Anyone can handpick isolated instances. It's a rather disingenuous way of lying that the media does all day every day, and is Moore's favorite propaganda technique (hence my earlier reference about Moore's hypocrisy in BFC). That's people here have been trying to tell you, and which you have been ignoring by calling them paid shills, or saying that they haven't seen the movie. Whatever.

The simple truth is that the US health care system, while flawed, is not as bad as Moore makes it out to be. And that the Canadian and Europeans systems do not work as utopist rosy as Moore made them out to be (as anyone of them, including the Australian OP, could tell you).
For example, the French system almost bankrupted the entire country. "Free" healthcare doesn't work if even the government can't afford it.
Or go back about 20 or years when the British system was rampant with corruption, abuses, and a low standard of care.
And in Canada, where 5% of the population doesn't have a doctor (due to short supply), and where people are forced to wait months for treatment.

IF the solution to our health care problems were as simple as putting government in charge of it, I'd be all for it. But it's not that simple.
You are wasting my time. Those aren't "handpicked" situations... Having our congress bought out and having profits trumping healthcare is something that gets worse every year. What is handpicked about that?

Poor people get dumped at the curb but a whole bunch of hospitals.. a common practice.. not a handpicked one.

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance... not handpicked.

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. This is not handpicked.. this is the way things operate.

None of these are handpicked.. they are the way things operate in the U.S... No wonder you can't respond to them.. keep generalizing and smearing.

QFT!
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,244
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I asked people to address the above points in the movie.. That is the challenge. ..and since you never saw it, you can't... so you just smear and run.
Anyone can handpick isolated instances. It's a rather disingenuous way of lying that the media does all day every day, and is Moore's favorite propaganda technique (hence my earlier reference about Moore's hypocrisy in BFC). That's people here have been trying to tell you, and which you have been ignoring by calling them paid shills, or saying that they haven't seen the movie. Whatever.

The simple truth is that the US health care system, while flawed, is not as bad as Moore makes it out to be. And that the Canadian and Europeans systems do not work as utopist rosy as Moore made them out to be (as anyone of them, including the Australian OP, could tell you).
For example, the French system almost bankrupted the entire country. "Free" healthcare doesn't work if even the government can't afford it.
Or go back about 20 or years when the British system was rampant with corruption, abuses, and a low standard of care.
And in Canada, where 5% of the population doesn't have a doctor (due to short supply), and where people are forced to wait months for treatment.

IF the solution to our health care problems were as simple as putting government in charge of it, I'd be all for it. But it's not that simple.
You are wasting my time. Those aren't "handpicked" situations... Having our congress bought out and having profits trumping healthcare is something that gets worse every year. What is handpicked about that?

Poor people get dumped at the curb but a whole bunch of hospitals.. a common practice.. not a handpicked one.

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance... not handpicked.

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. This is not handpicked.. this is the way things operate.

None of these are handpicked.. they are the way things operate in the U.S... No wonder you can't respond to them.. keep generalizing and smearing.

QFT!
The instances in the movie were handpicked. That is what I said. But of course you can't acknowledge that, you're a paid shill for Michael Moore.

:roll:
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I asked people to address the above points in the movie.. That is the challenge. ..and since you never saw it, you can't... so you just smear and run.
Anyone can handpick isolated instances. It's a rather disingenuous way of lying that the media does all day every day, and is Moore's favorite propaganda technique (hence my earlier reference about Moore's hypocrisy in BFC). That's people here have been trying to tell you, and which you have been ignoring by calling them paid shills, or saying that they haven't seen the movie. Whatever.

The simple truth is that the US health care system, while flawed, is not as bad as Moore makes it out to be. And that the Canadian and Europeans systems do not work as utopist rosy as Moore made them out to be (as anyone of them, including the Australian OP, could tell you).
For example, the French system almost bankrupted the entire country. "Free" healthcare doesn't work if even the government can't afford it.
Or go back about 20 or years when the British system was rampant with corruption, abuses, and a low standard of care.
And in Canada, where 5% of the population doesn't have a doctor (due to short supply), and where people are forced to wait months for treatment.

IF the solution to our health care problems were as simple as putting government in charge of it, I'd be all for it. But it's not that simple.
You are wasting my time. Those aren't "handpicked" situations... Having our congress bought out and having profits trumping healthcare is something that gets worse every year. What is handpicked about that?

Poor people get dumped at the curb but a whole bunch of hospitals.. a common practice.. not a handpicked one.

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance... not handpicked.

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. This is not handpicked.. this is the way things operate.

None of these are handpicked.. they are the way things operate in the U.S... No wonder you can't respond to them.. keep generalizing and smearing.

QFT!
The instances in the movie were handpicked. That is what I said. But of course you can't acknowledge that, you're a paid shill for Michael Moore.

:roll:
Keep smearing.

50 corrupt politicians were handpicked for the movie?

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance...

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. T

These are handpicked for the movie when they happen every single friggin day?

Smear smear smear!

It is sad that instead of actually addressing the issues, you instead attack him, attack me, attack other countries...

but you can't and won't actually ever deal with the issues.. I only listed a handful mentioned.. I could go on for pages about others... those are just the most blatant.




So we have pabster who just spams one liner and doesn't want to actually talk about the movie...

We have Vic who also smears/attacks and doesn't want to actually talk about what happened in the movie...

If anyone actually wants to talk about the movie, I'll respond... Can't respond to generalities/attacks... it is a waste of everybody's time... (I once spend pages trying to explain to Vic what the definition of a fraud... see sig for an actual response he made and couldn't understand- I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried!).
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
71
Originally posted by: daveymark
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Yeah, Norway health care system is great.

But their lowest tax rate is 28%!

I just love paying tax to da man.
highest income tax rate is 54.3%

capital gains tax is 28%

sales tax (VAT) is 25%

and it's frozen 6 months out of the year.

thanks, but no thanks
they have a GNP / capita that is more then $20k higher then the USA combined with big budget surplusses

these evil socialists must be doing something right, it looks to me that their politicians have a fiscal responsibility that democrats and republicans can only dream of
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,244
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I asked people to address the above points in the movie.. That is the challenge. ..and since you never saw it, you can't... so you just smear and run.
Anyone can handpick isolated instances. It's a rather disingenuous way of lying that the media does all day every day, and is Moore's favorite propaganda technique (hence my earlier reference about Moore's hypocrisy in BFC). That's people here have been trying to tell you, and which you have been ignoring by calling them paid shills, or saying that they haven't seen the movie. Whatever.

The simple truth is that the US health care system, while flawed, is not as bad as Moore makes it out to be. And that the Canadian and Europeans systems do not work as utopist rosy as Moore made them out to be (as anyone of them, including the Australian OP, could tell you).
For example, the French system almost bankrupted the entire country. "Free" healthcare doesn't work if even the government can't afford it.
Or go back about 20 or years when the British system was rampant with corruption, abuses, and a low standard of care.
And in Canada, where 5% of the population doesn't have a doctor (due to short supply), and where people are forced to wait months for treatment.

IF the solution to our health care problems were as simple as putting government in charge of it, I'd be all for it. But it's not that simple.
You are wasting my time. Those aren't "handpicked" situations... Having our congress bought out and having profits trumping healthcare is something that gets worse every year. What is handpicked about that?

Poor people get dumped at the curb but a whole bunch of hospitals.. a common practice.. not a handpicked one.

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance... not handpicked.

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. This is not handpicked.. this is the way things operate.

None of these are handpicked.. they are the way things operate in the U.S... No wonder you can't respond to them.. keep generalizing and smearing.

QFT!
The instances in the movie were handpicked. That is what I said. But of course you can't acknowledge that, you're a paid shill for Michael Moore.

:roll:
Keep smearing.

50 corrupt politicians were handpicked for the movie?

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance...

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. T

These are handpicked for the movie when they happen every single friggin day?

Smear smear smear!

It is sad that instead of actually addressing the issues, you instead attack him, attack me, attack other countries...

but you can't and won't actually ever deal with the issues.. I only listed a handful mentioned.. I could go on for pages about others... those are just the most blatant.
Heh. You are really one of the biggest laughs on this board.

You started the smear campaign long before I entered this thread by calling people "paid shills" and unfounded accusations of not having seen the movie, and I merely reminded you of that. Get a clue, eh?
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I asked people to address the above points in the movie.. That is the challenge. ..and since you never saw it, you can't... so you just smear and run.
Anyone can handpick isolated instances. It's a rather disingenuous way of lying that the media does all day every day, and is Moore's favorite propaganda technique (hence my earlier reference about Moore's hypocrisy in BFC). That's people here have been trying to tell you, and which you have been ignoring by calling them paid shills, or saying that they haven't seen the movie. Whatever.

The simple truth is that the US health care system, while flawed, is not as bad as Moore makes it out to be. And that the Canadian and Europeans systems do not work as utopist rosy as Moore made them out to be (as anyone of them, including the Australian OP, could tell you).
For example, the French system almost bankrupted the entire country. "Free" healthcare doesn't work if even the government can't afford it.
Or go back about 20 or years when the British system was rampant with corruption, abuses, and a low standard of care.
And in Canada, where 5% of the population doesn't have a doctor (due to short supply), and where people are forced to wait months for treatment.

IF the solution to our health care problems were as simple as putting government in charge of it, I'd be all for it. But it's not that simple.
You are wasting my time. Those aren't "handpicked" situations... Having our congress bought out and having profits trumping healthcare is something that gets worse every year. What is handpicked about that?

Poor people get dumped at the curb but a whole bunch of hospitals.. a common practice.. not a handpicked one.

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance... not handpicked.

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. This is not handpicked.. this is the way things operate.

None of these are handpicked.. they are the way things operate in the U.S... No wonder you can't respond to them.. keep generalizing and smearing.

QFT!
The instances in the movie were handpicked. That is what I said. But of course you can't acknowledge that, you're a paid shill for Michael Moore.

:roll:
Keep smearing.

50 corrupt politicians were handpicked for the movie?

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance...

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. T

These are handpicked for the movie when they happen every single friggin day?

Smear smear smear!

It is sad that instead of actually addressing the issues, you instead attack him, attack me, attack other countries...

but you can't and won't actually ever deal with the issues.. I only listed a handful mentioned.. I could go on for pages about others... those are just the most blatant.
Heh. You are really one of the biggest laughs on this board.

You started the smear campaign long before I entered this thread by calling people "paid shills" and unfounded accusations of not having seen the movie, and I merely reminded you of that. Get a clue, eh?
So we have pabster who just spams one liners and doesn't want to actually talk about the movie...

We have Vic who also smears/attacks and doesn't want to actually talk about what happened in the movie...

Shills who haven't seen the movie can't actually talk about the movie in specifics, which both you and Pabster proved.. not "unfounded" when they turn out to be true.. talks and walks like a duck= a duck.

Tell me, what is the point in going into a thread about a movie that you refuse to actually discuss or address the points from? The ONLY explanation is that they have a very vested interest in denying the movies' claims and prefer to smear and attack instead of actually addressing the points made in the movie(which they can't since they never saw it).

If anyone actually wants to talk about the movie, I'll respond... Can't respond to generalities/attacks... it is a waste of everybody's time... (I once spend pages trying to explain to Vic what the definition of a fraud is... see sig for an actual response he made and couldn't understand- I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried!).

I guess I will just have to keep asking for them to address the movie and stop generalizing... let's see how long they will squirm with only attacks/generalities...(they never actually saw the movie).



Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.
Congress being completely bought out and hired by big Pharma and Insurance companies(even Clinton!)


 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,402
9,244
126
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: daveymark
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Yeah, Norway health care system is great.

But their lowest tax rate is 28%!

I just love paying tax to da man.
highest income tax rate is 54.3%

capital gains tax is 28%

sales tax (VAT) is 25%

and it's frozen 6 months out of the year.

thanks, but no thanks
they have a GNP / capita that is more then $20k higher then the USA combined with big budget surplusses

these evil socialists must be doing something right, it looks to me that their politicians have a fiscal responsibility that democrats and republicans can only dream of
Socialists have nothing to do with it. The Socialists are a rather minor party in Norway. What the Norwegians do have is better political representation, with 7 political parties current holding national legislative office in a country with an area and population smaller than most US states.
Contrast that with the choices in the US, where in a country nearly 100 times larger only the 2 major parties hold national office, and they are more similar to each other than any of all the parties in Norway.
In those types of environments, is it really surprising that the people of one are more willing to trust its government than the people of the other?
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
71
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: daveymark
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Yeah, Norway health care system is great.

But their lowest tax rate is 28%!

I just love paying tax to da man.
highest income tax rate is 54.3%

capital gains tax is 28%

sales tax (VAT) is 25%

and it's frozen 6 months out of the year.

thanks, but no thanks
they have a GNP / capita that is more then $20k higher then the USA combined with big budget surplusses

these evil socialists must be doing something right, it looks to me that their politicians have a fiscal responsibility that democrats and republicans can only dream of
Socialists have nothing to do with it. The Socialists are a rather minor party in Norway. What the Norwegians do have is better political representation, with 7 political parties current holding national legislative office in a country with an area and population smaller than most US states.
Contrast that with the choices in the US, where only the 2 major parties hold national office, and they are more similar to each other than any of all the parties in Norway.
all these parties would be labeled "socialist" or "lefties" in the USA

the funny thing is that the scandinavian countries and countries like luxembourg have at the same time big government influence and very open economies. They have been running left leaning policies for decades (in the USA some of these policies would even be labeled communist) and still manage to be on the top of any possible indicator about income, freedom, education, healthcare ....
 

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