• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Just finished watching "Sicko"

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Originally posted by: jonessoda
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Most medical technology comes from the US. Why, because your health care is so expensive , and companies can charge whatever they like from their new products, notably drugs. So they spend huge on R&D, knowing they can charge $4000 for AIDS meds or whatever.

In nearly every other country the goverment say, "Sif you're charging $4000 for those drugs. You sell it for $100 or you GTFO."

If the US went to UHC, and forced drug companies to sell their drugs at $100 instead of $4000, what is that going to do to R&D?
A major reason drugs are so expensive in America is because countries with socialized medicine put price caps on the drugs, and the drug companies aren't able to recoup their expenses from sales at that price, so they have to charge a lot in the countries where they can.

It's not the job of government to take care of us from cradle to grave. That's our own responsibility. At least, it used to be, and it should be.
That's exactly what I was saying. If you went UHC, there would be no more R&D money.

It's not the job of government to take care of us from cradle to grave.

Mmm, that's a little naive. I'm a Libertarian, so I would normally agree, but not in this situation.

Pure Market is prefect for everything, EXCEPT products without a supply/demand curve.

If Sony charge $10,000 got a PS3, everyone would buy a Xbox360. The market forces sets the price.

If you have AIDS, you NEED the drugs. If they cost $4000 you still need them. As the price rises the demand doesn't go down. There is no motivation for the company to make a better product when they can already charge you whatever they want to the current crappy product.

Monopolies are illegal. collusion is illegal. So why should price fixing be legal? Which is what drugs companies are going. When there is no supply/demand curve the company is seting an arbitrary price. Thats called price fixing where I come from.
You're right, Wal-Mart selling prescriptions for $5 and Publix giving away prescriptions for free clearly shows that that the market cannot work.

And yes, there is motivation for companies to make a better product. Because as soon as their patents run out, every generic drug company around than the patent holder loses any advantage. So, they have to work on a better drug when that happens.

The drugs that cost $5 are homogenized, and thus have a supply/demand curve. You just proved my point.
And you missed mine. The reason those drugs are homogenized is because the patents have expired on them. One of my son's asthma medicines just had its patent expire and the price dropped dramatically.

If you take away the patent process, you take away the incentive for companies to produce a product because all their hard work and money will be for nothing as soon as the product hits the shelves. Same thing if you put in price controls. Price controls inevitably lead to shortages and rationing.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
I usually don't like Micheal Moore. He seems like a left wing nut job.

But this film was better than his normal stuff.

Was anyone swayed by this film, do you now support UHC when you didnt before?

I believe he made a very good argument. At least a more rational one that he usually does.

One day people will look back and this we are barbarians for denying people medical help.

However, this film had major flaws.

ie. We have free health care in Australia, but most people still have private health insurance. Why, because the free health care system sucks!

Same with England, the NHS is far from perfect.

You didn't say this Micheal!

But crappy health care for the poor is better than none. And everyone else can afford private health insurance. Not perfect but it works.

Anyone else agree, or am I an idiot? :)
It is about par for the course for him. Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 911 both made good points. Roger and Me is hard to watch though.. but he was just starting out then.

The reason you thought he was a "eft wing nut job" is because that is what some people want you to think. They don't want you to view things for yourself and make your own determinations.

About this movie in particular.. the strongest points are about America. The easy talking points against the movie are about his showing of foreign countries like Cuba... But he majority of the movie and the point is in the American portion.

You can't argue with facts.
 

BradAtWork

Senior member
Sep 5, 2005
320
0
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Originally posted by: jonessoda
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Most medical technology comes from the US. Why, because your health care is so expensive , and companies can charge whatever they like from their new products, notably drugs. So they spend huge on R&D, knowing they can charge $4000 for AIDS meds or whatever.

In nearly every other country the goverment say, "Sif you're charging $4000 for those drugs. You sell it for $100 or you GTFO."

If the US went to UHC, and forced drug companies to sell their drugs at $100 instead of $4000, what is that going to do to R&D?
A major reason drugs are so expensive in America is because countries with socialized medicine put price caps on the drugs, and the drug companies aren't able to recoup their expenses from sales at that price, so they have to charge a lot in the countries where they can.

It's not the job of government to take care of us from cradle to grave. That's our own responsibility. At least, it used to be, and it should be.
That's exactly what I was saying. If you went UHC, there would be no more R&D money.

It's not the job of government to take care of us from cradle to grave.

Mmm, that's a little naive. I'm a Libertarian, so I would normally agree, but not in this situation.

Pure Market is prefect for everything, EXCEPT products without a supply/demand curve.

If Sony charge $10,000 got a PS3, everyone would buy a Xbox360. The market forces sets the price.

If you have AIDS, you NEED the drugs. If they cost $4000 you still need them. As the price rises the demand doesn't go down. There is no motivation for the company to make a better product when they can already charge you whatever they want to the current crappy product.

Monopolies are illegal. collusion is illegal. So why should price fixing be legal? Which is what drugs companies are going. When there is no supply/demand curve the company is seting an arbitrary price. Thats called price fixing where I come from.
You're right, Wal-Mart selling prescriptions for $5 and Publix giving away prescriptions for free clearly shows that that the market cannot work.

And yes, there is motivation for companies to make a better product. Because as soon as their patents run out, every generic drug company around than the patent holder loses any advantage. So, they have to work on a better drug when that happens.

The drugs that cost $5 are homogenized, and thus have a supply/demand curve. You just proved my point.
And you missed mine. The reason those drugs are homogenized is because the patents have expired on them. One of my son's asthma medicines just had its patent expire and the price dropped dramatically.

If you take away the patent process, you take away the incentive for companies to produce a product because all their hard work and money will be for nothing as soon as the product hits the shelves. Same thing if you put in price controls. Price controls inevitably lead to shortages and rationing.
So its perfectly fine for drug companies to price gouge while they still have patent?

Does this say there is something wrong with the system?

People above say other coutries spend big on R&D, but don't charge the earth for the drugs.

I'm not saying I have a solution, i'm just sayin that 'free market' doesnt work with drugs. Or any product with out a natural curve. Food, water etc.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: Kreon
Actually, it did kinda sway me

Before, I wanted the system fixed.
Maybe remove the pre-existing conditions crap, and a few other things, and it'd be fixed

UHS does seem to work though. I mean, you really can't argue with the statistics he points out. America is low in life expectancy and healthcare in the world rankings no matter how you slice it.
But France is at the top, and they have it. Most of Europe does too, and they all rank better than America. Canada even rates higher than the US (no offense to Canada).

And a number of people I've met from Europe already think we're barbarians for not having UHS...

Besides, the Health care companies are perfect examples of "bad" trusts (in the TR way)
That's enough reason to shut them down anyways
Life expectancy does not equate to better health care. America's life expectancy is lower than other countries for a variety of different factors that have nothing to do with the quality of health care. Everything from gun violence to car wrecks to obesity.

If you want to look at quality of health care than look at survival rates which America leads in most categories.

And yes, you can argue with the statistics and other things that Moore brings up. He cherry-picks statistics and anecdotes and the only prescription for what ailes the American Medical System for him is Socialized Medicine. Moore is a Socialist through and through.

MTV's Kurt Loder rightly lambasts Moore and "Sicko".

Even Canadian journalists were having at Moore and "Sicko".
Real life people have real life problems and they are shown in the movie.

As he rightly points out, our police, fire, education, and post office are all socialized and run very well. You say "socialist" like it is a bad thing. I guess you are a socialist if you enjoyed your free education...

France is #1 in healthcare and we are right next to Slovenia.. that isn't cherry picking.

If you are anything but the wealthiest 1% in America and have health problems.. good luck to you.

I bet 100% you didn't actually watch the movie for yourself though : ). typical.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: villageidiot111
Check out this scene Michael Moore had to cut because audiences wouldn't believe it.
Pictures of Cuba's health care system that Moore wouldn't show.

I've seen worse pictures than these too.
As I pointed out in my first response.. this is the typical attack on the movie.. point out the worst point he made and use it to discredit the entire movie. I have yet to see ONE criticism of his american portion of the movie.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Originally posted by: jonessoda
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Most medical technology comes from the US. Why, because your health care is so expensive , and companies can charge whatever they like from their new products, notably drugs. So they spend huge on R&D, knowing they can charge $4000 for AIDS meds or whatever.

In nearly every other country the goverment say, "Sif you're charging $4000 for those drugs. You sell it for $100 or you GTFO."

If the US went to UHC, and forced drug companies to sell their drugs at $100 instead of $4000, what is that going to do to R&D?
A major reason drugs are so expensive in America is because countries with socialized medicine put price caps on the drugs, and the drug companies aren't able to recoup their expenses from sales at that price, so they have to charge a lot in the countries where they can.

It's not the job of government to take care of us from cradle to grave. That's our own responsibility. At least, it used to be, and it should be.
That's exactly what I was saying. If you went UHC, there would be no more R&D money.

It's not the job of government to take care of us from cradle to grave.

Mmm, that's a little naive. I'm a Libertarian, so I would normally agree, but not in this situation.

Pure Market is prefect for everything, EXCEPT products without a supply/demand curve.

If Sony charge $10,000 got a PS3, everyone would buy a Xbox360. The market forces sets the price.

If you have AIDS, you NEED the drugs. If they cost $4000 you still need them. As the price rises the demand doesn't go down. There is no motivation for the company to make a better product when they can already charge you whatever they want to the current crappy product.

Monopolies are illegal. collusion is illegal. So why should price fixing be legal? Which is what drugs companies are going. When there is no supply/demand curve the company is seting an arbitrary price. Thats called price fixing where I come from.
You're right, Wal-Mart selling prescriptions for $5 and Publix giving away prescriptions for free clearly shows that that the market cannot work.

And yes, there is motivation for companies to make a better product. Because as soon as their patents run out, every generic drug company around than the patent holder loses any advantage. So, they have to work on a better drug when that happens.
Oh, I could get my prescription meds from Walmart? Oh wait.. they don't include any of mine... Do they sell Aids prescriptions for $5 instead of thousands?
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Originally posted by: jonessoda
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Most medical technology comes from the US. Why, because your health care is so expensive , and companies can charge whatever they like from their new products, notably drugs. So they spend huge on R&D, knowing they can charge $4000 for AIDS meds or whatever.

In nearly every other country the goverment say, "Sif you're charging $4000 for those drugs. You sell it for $100 or you GTFO."

If the US went to UHC, and forced drug companies to sell their drugs at $100 instead of $4000, what is that going to do to R&D?
A major reason drugs are so expensive in America is because countries with socialized medicine put price caps on the drugs, and the drug companies aren't able to recoup their expenses from sales at that price, so they have to charge a lot in the countries where they can.

It's not the job of government to take care of us from cradle to grave. That's our own responsibility. At least, it used to be, and it should be.
That's exactly what I was saying. If you went UHC, there would be no more R&D money.

It's not the job of government to take care of us from cradle to grave.

Mmm, that's a little naive. I'm a Libertarian, so I would normally agree, but not in this situation.

Pure Market is prefect for everything, EXCEPT products without a supply/demand curve.

If Sony charge $10,000 got a PS3, everyone would buy a Xbox360. The market forces sets the price.

If you have AIDS, you NEED the drugs. If they cost $4000 you still need them. As the price rises the demand doesn't go down. There is no motivation for the company to make a better product when they can already charge you whatever they want to the current crappy product.

Monopolies are illegal. collusion is illegal. So why should price fixing be legal? Which is what drugs companies are going. When there is no supply/demand curve the company is seting an arbitrary price. Thats called price fixing where I come from.
You're right, Wal-Mart selling prescriptions for $5 and Publix giving away prescriptions for free clearly shows that that the market cannot work.

And yes, there is motivation for companies to make a better product. Because as soon as their patents run out, every generic drug company around than the patent holder loses any advantage. So, they have to work on a better drug when that happens.

The drugs that cost $5 are homogenized, and thus have a supply/demand curve. You just proved my point.
And you missed mine. The reason those drugs are homogenized is because the patents have expired on them. One of my son's asthma medicines just had its patent expire and the price dropped dramatically.

If you take away the patent process, you take away the incentive for companies to produce a product because all their hard work and money will be for nothing as soon as the product hits the shelves. Same thing if you put in price controls. Price controls inevitably lead to shortages and rationing.
With my health insurance through my wife's teaching, I still pay $30 for my generic bran medication prescriptions each... They would be about $300 a month without the insurance using generics.

So, until patents run out, the U.S. is screwed and that is ok with you... got you.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
So its perfectly fine for drug companies to price gouge while they still have patent?
How is this any different from a PS3 being sold at $600 then dropped down to $500 then dropped down to $400? Companies have to have an incentive to make product. Take away the patent and/or put in price controls and the incentive is gone.

People above say other coutries spend big on R&D, but don't charge the earth for the drugs.
Price controls in other countries. GlaxoSmithKline (#3 in the Wiki link) does the majority of their business in the USA.

Novartis (#4 in the Wiki link) is also world wide with a heavy presence in the USA. They've also challenged patent laws in other countries to prevent cheaper generic drugs being made from their patents. Novartis themselves produces generic drugs.

I'm not saying I have a solution, i'm just sayin that 'free market' doesnt work with drugs. Or any product with out a natural curve. Food, water etc.
Because of government regulations and restrictions in the health care field, you can't even say that we have a 'free market'.

 

gururu2

Senior member
Oct 14, 2007
686
1
81
big pharm pulls in billions of dollars. the profits are incredible. CEOs and executives get millions of dollars per year in incentives and bonuses. the industry spends billions of dollars lobbying for leverage in both government and medicine. even with price caps, the companies will still turn massive profits. we aren't asking them to go non-profit. patents will continue to exist. taxpayers will pay for medicines included in the healthcare packages. these taxdollars will go straight to these companies.
its a worthwhile investment. of the 50 million people without health insurance, how many of them pay taxes? half of them. shouldn't these taxes be used for medicine when they do get sick? so they can continue to work and pay taxes?

it wont work though. there will never be enough money until we adopt a system where higher income bracket individuals pay more taxes, and it aint gonna happen.
 

BradAtWork

Senior member
Sep 5, 2005
320
0
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
So its perfectly fine for drug companies to price gouge while they still have patent?
How is this any different from a PS3 being sold at $600 then dropped down to $500 then dropped down to $400? Companies have to have an incentive to make product. Take away the patent and/or put in price controls and the incentive is gone.

People above say other coutries spend big on R&D, but don't charge the earth for the drugs.
Price controls in other countries. GlaxoSmithKline (#3 in the Wiki link) does the majority of their business in the USA.

Novartis (#4 in the Wiki link) is also world wide with a heavy presence in the USA. They've also challenged patent laws in other countries to prevent cheaper generic drugs being made from their patents. Novartis themselves produces generic drugs.

I'm not saying I have a solution, i'm just sayin that 'free market' doesnt work with drugs. Or any product with out a natural curve. Food, water etc.
Because of government regulations and restrictions in the health care field, you can't even say that we have a 'free market'.
Because people dont NEED a PS3! They can live without one! Hence there is a DEMAND CURVE!

You're comparing Aids medication to a PS3. What are you smokin?
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
17
81
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: Kreon
Actually, it did kinda sway me

Before, I wanted the system fixed.
Maybe remove the pre-existing conditions crap, and a few other things, and it'd be fixed

UHS does seem to work though. I mean, you really can't argue with the statistics he points out. America is low in life expectancy and healthcare in the world rankings no matter how you slice it.
But France is at the top, and they have it. Most of Europe does too, and they all rank better than America. Canada even rates higher than the US (no offense to Canada).

And a number of people I've met from Europe already think we're barbarians for not having UHS...

Besides, the Health care companies are perfect examples of "bad" trusts (in the TR way)
That's enough reason to shut them down anyways
Life expectancy does not equate to better health care. America's life expectancy is lower than other countries for a variety of different factors that have nothing to do with the quality of health care. Everything from gun violence to car wrecks to obesity.

If you want to look at quality of health care than look at survival rates which America leads in most categories.

And yes, you can argue with the statistics and other things that Moore brings up. He cherry-picks statistics and anecdotes and the only prescription for what ailes the American Medical System for him is Socialized Medicine. Moore is a Socialist through and through.

MTV's Kurt Loder rightly lambasts Moore and "Sicko".

Even Canadian journalists were having at Moore and "Sicko".
Real life people have real life problems and they are shown in the movie.

As he rightly points out, our police, fire, education, and post office are all socialized and run very well. You say "socialist" like it is a bad thing. I guess you are a socialist if you enjoyed your free education...

France is #1 in healthcare and we are right next to Slovenia.. that isn't cherry picking.

If you are anything but the wealthiest 1% in America and have health problems.. good luck to you.

I bet 100% you didn't actually watch the movie for yourself though : ). typical.
You think the fucking public education system works well? Christ, are you serious?

And out of those, only the USPS is a federal entity. And yes, it does work well. And no, a postal service can't be compared to health care.

WRT ranking...no its not cherry picking, but its picked from the flawed WHO ranking, which is a joke itself.

And you think the bottom 99% of the country is screwed if they have a health problem? Now you're just trolling.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,864
83
91
i don't believe in supporting lies, even if they are supposedly for my side.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,381
94
86
Originally posted by: gururu2
where higher income bracket individuals pay more taxes, and it aint gonna happen.
Higher income people already pay more taxes.

 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
So its perfectly fine for drug companies to price gouge while they still have patent?
How is this any different from a PS3 being sold at $600 then dropped down to $500 then dropped down to $400? Companies have to have an incentive to make product. Take away the patent and/or put in price controls and the incentive is gone.

People above say other coutries spend big on R&D, but don't charge the earth for the drugs.
Price controls in other countries. GlaxoSmithKline (#3 in the Wiki link) does the majority of their business in the USA.

Novartis (#4 in the Wiki link) is also world wide with a heavy presence in the USA. They've also challenged patent laws in other countries to prevent cheaper generic drugs being made from their patents. Novartis themselves produces generic drugs.

I'm not saying I have a solution, i'm just sayin that 'free market' doesnt work with drugs. Or any product with out a natural curve. Food, water etc.
Because of government regulations and restrictions in the health care field, you can't even say that we have a 'free market'.
The side effects of going without medication are a bit different than going without a PS3.... I hope you are joking.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Administrator
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
162
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
There's only one Michael Moore movie that belongs in OT: Canadian Bacon. (His best movie, IMHO)

The rest go to P&N :p
 

BradAtWork

Senior member
Sep 5, 2005
320
0
0
Originally posted by: DrPizza
There's only one Michael Moore movie that belongs in OT: Canadian Bacon. (His best movie, IMHO)

The rest go to P&N :p
Good call mate. :p

I was actually trying to figure out if it should go in P&N.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Real life people have real life problems and they are shown in the movie.

As he rightly points out, our police, fire, education, and post office are all socialized and run very well. You say "socialist" like it is a bad thing. I guess you are a socialist if you enjoyed your free education...

France is #1 in healthcare and we are right next to Slovenia.. that isn't cherry picking.

If you are anything but the wealthiest 1% in America and have health problems.. good luck to you.

I bet 100% you didn't actually watch the movie for yourself though : ). typical.
Post Office is run well? <snicker>
How about Medicaid and Medicare? How are those run? Oh yeah...pretty damn horribly with fraud running into the billions of dollars.
Social Security? Yeah, that's working out fantabulously. It will be bankrupt by the time I retire.
Immigration? Woohoo.
Everyone complains about the war in Iraq. Complains about national security conducting surveillance. Complains about the government screwing up this thing or screwing up that thing. And you want THEM to be in charge of your health care?

I'm no where near the wealthiest 1%. Not even to 5% or top 25%. My wife had serious complications with the birth of both our children resulting in weeks of in-hospital stay, emergency procedures, and more exams than I can even begin to imagine. Then there was the three week stay my son had at the NICU. Countless trips to doctors. Countless amounts of drugs. Countless amounts of exams. Asthma problems. Allergy problems. On and on and on.

While, I can't say that the experience has been enjoyable and there were a couple of bumps, I can say that both of my children are alive today because of our current system. Because they were able to get immediate care. Because we weren't made to wait. And, we never incurred any serious debt despite running up bills into the couple of hundred of thousands.

The current system isn't perfect. It is lacking any many areas. I'd like to see people be able to buy individual plans and enjoy the same tax credit that other people get purchasing insurance through their employer. I'd like to see coverage requirements loosened so that people can buy the coverage that they need instead of buying one-size fits all insurance that constantly sees more mandates added by politicians every year that increases the cost of insurance.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: Kreon
Actually, it did kinda sway me

Before, I wanted the system fixed.
Maybe remove the pre-existing conditions crap, and a few other things, and it'd be fixed

UHS does seem to work though. I mean, you really can't argue with the statistics he points out. America is low in life expectancy and healthcare in the world rankings no matter how you slice it.
But France is at the top, and they have it. Most of Europe does too, and they all rank better than America. Canada even rates higher than the US (no offense to Canada).

And a number of people I've met from Europe already think we're barbarians for not having UHS...

Besides, the Health care companies are perfect examples of "bad" trusts (in the TR way)
That's enough reason to shut them down anyways
Life expectancy does not equate to better health care. America's life expectancy is lower than other countries for a variety of different factors that have nothing to do with the quality of health care. Everything from gun violence to car wrecks to obesity.

If you want to look at quality of health care than look at survival rates which America leads in most categories.

And yes, you can argue with the statistics and other things that Moore brings up. He cherry-picks statistics and anecdotes and the only prescription for what ailes the American Medical System for him is Socialized Medicine. Moore is a Socialist through and through.

MTV's Kurt Loder rightly lambasts Moore and "Sicko".

Even Canadian journalists were having at Moore and "Sicko".
Real life people have real life problems and they are shown in the movie.

As he rightly points out, our police, fire, education, and post office are all socialized and run very well. You say "socialist" like it is a bad thing. I guess you are a socialist if you enjoyed your free education...

France is #1 in healthcare and we are right next to Slovenia.. that isn't cherry picking.

If you are anything but the wealthiest 1% in America and have health problems.. good luck to you.

I bet 100% you didn't actually watch the movie for yourself though : ). typical.
You think the fucking public education system works well? Christ, are you serious?

And out of those, only the USPS is a federal entity. And yes, it does work well. And no, a postal service can't be compared to health care.

WRT ranking...no its not cherry picking, but its picked from the flawed WHO ranking, which is a joke itself.

And you think the bottom 99% of the country is screwed if they have a health problem? Now you're just trolling.
Oh god...

Fire and police are socialist, doesn't matter if they are federal or not.

There is nothing wrong with he public education system. It works and it is free. It isn't perfect, but nothing is. It allows for everyone to get decent education and without free education, this country would have turned to shit a looong time ago.

Yes, the bottom 99% GETS screwed.. not all are screwed.

What is flawed about the WHO?

I challenge you to find problems with Moore's portrayal of America in the movie. Do not link me some garbage from other people. Use your own brain.

Insurances using doctors to deny claims to raise their profits. People dieing because they can't get cancer treatment(insurance denials) or because only certain hospitals are covered and by the time they got to the other it was too late. Or how our congressmen get tons of contributions from health care to tow the line. How congressmen get bought off and then actually get hired by the healthcare industry. How hospitals dump people who can't pay at the curb. Etc etc etc.

And don't reply to the above paragraph. Respond to the issues as they were shown in the movie.

I guarantee you didn't see the movie, so stop trolling yourself.
 

gururu2

Senior member
Oct 14, 2007
686
1
81
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Originally posted by: gururu2
where higher income bracket individuals pay more taxes, and it aint gonna happen.
Higher income people already pay more taxes.
there was nothing relative about my statement. i meant they should pay more taxes.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: BradAtWork
Why does this thread only have one star?

I fail. :(
Because people are paid to go on the internet and try to downplay everything that is against them. Additionally, people can be VERY afraid of anything that is not on their "side" of politics. It is a sad system and people work VERY hard to try to downplay and spin everything against them. It runs rampant on these forums and many many others.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
i don't believe in supporting lies, even if they are supposedly for my side.
Oh cool... so you wouldn't mind pointing out a few of these lies for yourself?

Since I am sure you saw the movie, without linking to OTHER peoples' "opinions", please point out what you thought were lies about the american system shown in the movie.

I don't expect to see you here again!
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Oh, I could get my prescription meds from Walmart? Oh wait.. they don't include any of mine... Do they sell Aids prescriptions for $5 instead of thousands?
You're purposefully ignoring the point of my post. The same thing that resulted in generic prescriptions going for $5 at Wal-Mart also occurs with medications elsewhere like for AIDs. Prices eventually come down. Especially as new drugs enter the market and patents run out.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Real life people have real life problems and they are shown in the movie.

As he rightly points out, our police, fire, education, and post office are all socialized and run very well. You say "socialist" like it is a bad thing. I guess you are a socialist if you enjoyed your free education...

France is #1 in healthcare and we are right next to Slovenia.. that isn't cherry picking.

If you are anything but the wealthiest 1% in America and have health problems.. good luck to you.

I bet 100% you didn't actually watch the movie for yourself though : ). typical.
Post Office is run well? <snicker>
How about Medicaid and Medicare? How are those run? Oh yeah...pretty damn horribly with fraud running into the billions of dollars.
Social Security? Yeah, that's working out fantabulously. It will be bankrupt by the time I retire.
Immigration? Woohoo.
Everyone complains about the war in Iraq. Complains about national security conducting surveillance. Complains about the government screwing up this thing or screwing up that thing. And you want THEM to be in charge of your health care?

I'm no where near the wealthiest 1%. Not even to 5% or top 25%. My wife had serious complications with the birth of both our children resulting in weeks of in-hospital stay, emergency procedures, and more exams than I can even begin to imagine. Then there was the three week stay my son had at the NICU. Countless trips to doctors. Countless amounts of drugs. Countless amounts of exams. Asthma problems. Allergy problems. On and on and on.

While, I can't say that the experience has been enjoyable and there were a couple of bumps, I can say that both of my children are alive today because of our current system. Because they were able to get immediate care. Because we weren't made to wait. And, we never incurred any serious debt despite running up bills into the couple of hundred of thousands.

The current system isn't perfect. It is lacking any many areas. I'd like to see people be able to buy individual plans and enjoy the same tax credit that other people get purchasing insurance through their employer. I'd like to see coverage requirements loosened so that people can buy the coverage that they need instead of buying one-size fits all insurance that constantly sees more mandates added by politicians every year that increases the cost of insurance.
So, you ignored "police, fire, education". You used "snicker" as an argument against the post office.

You bring up nothing from the actual movie. Please quit trolling. If you want to comment about the movie, please do so. Linking to other sites is all people can do here because most don't think for themselves. They just use others' paid opinions to justify themselves(even though you could ALWAYS find opinions online to support whatever nutty cause you have.

Fraud runs in Medicaid and medicare, but they still serve a purpose and their purpose helps millions. Do you realize that there is about 1000x more fraud in the Iraq occupation? There is fraud in EVERYTHING related to government.. does that nullfiy the purpose of government? let's disband Congress and our entire leadership... they have a TON of corruption and criminal behavior!

Social security is garbage, but served a purpose in its created time.

Immigration is socialist?

If dozens of countries could run healthcare fine, then yes, the "greatest country in the world" should be able to handle it. They handle.. Let's say it with me-

Post office, education, medicare, medicaid, fire depts, police depts.

They don't need to run it perfectly, just enough to get the job done for everyone. Just copy the other dozens of models. Stop using bogus scare tactics.

You still haven't seen the movie you troll.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Oh, I could get my prescription meds from Walmart? Oh wait.. they don't include any of mine... Do they sell Aids prescriptions for $5 instead of thousands?
You're purposefully ignoring the point of my post. The same thing that resulted in generic prescriptions going for $5 at Wal-Mart also occurs with medications elsewhere like for AIDs. Prices eventually come down. Especially as new drugs enter the market and patents run out.
YOU CAN NOT WAIT FOR "eventually" WHEN YOU NEED MEDICATION NOOOOOOWWWWWWW!

You have NO CHOICE when you NEED IT NOW!

This isn't complicated. Stop being braindead for the love of god.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY