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Just finished watching "Sicko"

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
8,790
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
I asked people to address the above points in the movie.. That is the challenge. ..and since you never saw it, you can't... so you just smear and run.
Anyone can handpick isolated instances. It's a rather disingenuous way of lying that the media does all day every day, and is Moore's favorite propaganda technique (hence my earlier reference about Moore's hypocrisy in BFC). That's people here have been trying to tell you, and which you have been ignoring by calling them paid shills, or saying that they haven't seen the movie. Whatever.

The simple truth is that the US health care system, while flawed, is not as bad as Moore makes it out to be. And that the Canadian and Europeans systems do not work as utopist rosy as Moore made them out to be (as anyone of them, including the Australian OP, could tell you).
For example, the French system almost bankrupted the entire country. "Free" healthcare doesn't work if even the government can't afford it.
Or go back about 20 or years when the British system was rampant with corruption, abuses, and a low standard of care.
And in Canada, where 5% of the population doesn't have a doctor (due to short supply), and where people are forced to wait months for treatment.

IF the solution to our health care problems were as simple as putting government in charge of it, I'd be all for it. But it's not that simple.
You are wasting my time. Those aren't "handpicked" situations... Having our congress bought out and having profits trumping healthcare is something that gets worse every year. What is handpicked about that?

Poor people get dumped at the curb but a whole bunch of hospitals.. a common practice.. not a handpicked one.

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance... not handpicked.

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. This is not handpicked.. this is the way things operate.

None of these are handpicked.. they are the way things operate in the U.S... No wonder you can't respond to them.. keep generalizing and smearing.

QFT!
The instances in the movie were handpicked. That is what I said. But of course you can't acknowledge that, you're a paid shill for Michael Moore.

:roll:
Keep smearing.

50 corrupt politicians were handpicked for the movie?

People getting turned down for cancer or any expensive treatment is commonplace even for people that HAVE insurance...

Insurance companies pay their workers and doctors to deny claims and to find anything possible in someone's history to use as an excuse for such. T

These are handpicked for the movie when they happen every single friggin day?

Smear smear smear!

It is sad that instead of actually addressing the issues, you instead attack him, attack me, attack other countries...

but you can't and won't actually ever deal with the issues.. I only listed a handful mentioned.. I could go on for pages about others... those are just the most blatant.
Heh. You are really one of the biggest laughs on this board.

You started the smear campaign long before I entered this thread by calling people "paid shills" and unfounded accusations of not having seen the movie, and I merely reminded you of that. Get a clue, eh?
So we have pabster who just spams one liners and doesn't want to actually talk about the movie...

We have Vic who also smears/attacks and doesn't want to actually talk about what happened in the movie...

Shills who haven't seen the movie can't actually talk about the movie in specifics, which both you and Pabster proved.. not "unfounded" when they turn out to be true.. talks and walks like a duck= a duck.

Tell me, what is the point in going into a thread about a movie that you refuse to actually discuss or address the points from? The ONLY explanation is that they have a very vested interest in denying the movies' claims and prefer to smear and attack instead of actually addressing the points made in the movie(which they can't since they never saw it).

If anyone actually wants to talk about the movie, I'll respond... Can't respond to generalities/attacks... it is a waste of everybody's time... (I once spend pages trying to explain to Vic what the definition of a fraud is... see sig for an actual response he made and couldn't understand- I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried!).

I guess I will just have to keep asking for them to address the movie and stop generalizing... let's see how long they will squirm with only attacks/generalities...(they never actually saw the movie).



Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.
Congress being completely bought out and hired by big Pharma and Insurance companies(even Clinton!)
Ah I see... so when I pointed out that the biggest general criticism about the movie, from both UHC opponents and proponents alike, it that it highlighted on isolated instances both to make the US healthcare system look worse than it is and to make those of other countries look better than the are, that was a "smear."
But when you round around calling people paid shills with no proof of that whatsoever except that they don't automatically agree with your agenda (which you have admitted would benefit you financially), that's calling a duck a duck.

Got it. ;) That's some funny sh!t, moron. :laugh:
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Name calling and emotes.. the way of the intellect.

Evidence- neither of you are willing to address the movie points.. just generalities.

Feel free to prove me wrong-

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.
Congress being completely bought out and hired by big Pharma and Insurance companies(even Clinton!)
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
8,790
126
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
Socialists have nothing to do with it. The Socialists are a rather minor party in Norway. What the Norwegians do have is better political representation, with 7 political parties current holding national legislative office in a country with an area and population smaller than most US states.
Contrast that with the choices in the US, where only the 2 major parties hold national office, and they are more similar to each other than any of all the parties in Norway.
all these parties would be labeled "socialist" or "lefties" in the USA

the funny thing is that the scandinavian countries and countries like luxembourg have at the same time big government influence and very open economies. They have been running left leaning policies for decades (in the USA some of these policies would even be labeled communist) and still manage to be on the top of any possible indicator about income, freedom, education, healthcare ....
Really? Even the Conservative party, Christian Democratic party, Christian Unity party, and Abortion Opponents party?
And what about the fact that Norway still has a king who still (nominally) holds de jure executive power, and that the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway is still the state religion/church?

:roll:

Quit trolling. Not all of us are so stupid as to believe the internet Eurotroll lies about Europe being some kind of socialists paradise.


edited for formatting
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
8,790
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Name calling and emotes.. the way of the intellect.
Sorry, I felt that you hadn't called enough people shills yet while at the same time exposing your own financial conflict of interest.

And as you haven't addressed a single one of my points regarding the known flaws in Moore's moviemaking, I cannot see any reason why I am supposed to be compelled to address yours specifically. That the US healthcare system is flawed is not something I disagreed with (in fact, I specifically agreed that it is from my first post in this thread), so I cannot see what point you could possibly be trying to make by pretending that I did disagree, except as straw man.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Name calling and emotes.. the way of the intellect.
Sorry, I felt that you hadn't called enough people shills yet while at the same time exposing your own financial conflict of interest.

And as you haven't addressed a single one of my points regarding the known flaws in Moore's moviemaking, I cannot see any reason why I am supposed to be compelled to address yours specifically. That the US healthcare system is flawed is not something I disagreed with (in fact, I specifically agreed that it is from my first post in this thread), so I cannot see what point you could possibly be trying to make by pretending that I did disagree, except as straw man.
Ah, the old "you aren't doing mine, so I won't do yours".. nonsense.. post a list of YOUR concerns and I will address them.. don't tell me what OTHERS think,.. use your own brain and your own "viewing" to list them.

Wait.. didn't you just accuse someone of trollingin your very last post? This is different from calling someone a shill? At least I have evidence... you have nothing but your dislike for his post!

My own financial conflict of interest!?!?! HAHAHAHA! I trade stocks for a living! If anything, my opinion actually HURTS my chance at profit you fool! Some things are so morally distressing that you have to go against your own financial interests for the better good... something you would never understand...

Of course, you were just justifying your lashing out childishly with name calling and emoticons... no surprise that you need to justify your actions with thingsy ou decide to assume and make up on the spot!
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Make sure to list specific examples of the movie(the american part) that you disagree with and why and I'd be delighted to respond to them... no generalities or links to other peoples' opinions.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
71
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
they have a GNP / capita that is more then $20k higher then the USA combined with big budget surplusses

these evil socialists must be doing something right, it looks to me that their politicians have a fiscal responsibility that democrats and republicans can only dream of
Socialists have nothing to do with it. The Socialists are a rather minor party in Norway. What the Norwegians do have is better political representation, with 7 political parties current holding national legislative office in a country with an area and population smaller than most US states.
Contrast that with the choices in the US, where only the 2 major parties hold national office, and they are more similar to each other than any of all the parties in Norway.
all these parties would be labeled "socialist" or "lefties" in the USA

the funny thing is that the scandinavian countries and countries like luxembourg have at the same time big government influence and very open economies. They have been running left leaning policies for decades (in the USA some of these policies would even be labeled communist) and still manage to be on the top of any possible indicator about income, freedom, education, healthcare ....
Really? Even the Conservative party, Christian Democratic party, Christian Unity party, and Abortion Opponents party?
And what about the fact that Norway still has a king who still (nominally) holds de jure executive power, and that the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway is still the state religion/church?

:roll:

Quit trolling. Not all of us are so stupid as to believe the internet Eurotroll lies about Europe being some kind of socialists paradise.
really, as always you don't have a clue what you are talking about. We don't want trolls like you to live in our socialist paradise because frankly we don't like arrogant people. We rather have them on the other side of the ocean. You come in every thread with your holier-then-aything-i-know-everything and the equator is also running through my ass atitude

what I was saying is in my post was despite all these different parties and their ideological differences on ethical stuff they all have common left leaning policies
-universal healthcare
-government intervention (statoil is mostly owned by the norwegian state for example)
-extensive laws regarding paid vacation, maternal leave, ...
- ....


are you denying that these are not typical left leaning (or socialist) policies?
are you denying that Norway, Luxembourg have higher GNP / capita combined with fiscal surplusses?
are you denying that these countries, despite all this government intervention score very high in just about every indicator about income, health, education, ...

please answer instead of starting one of your typical i-know-better rants

BTW, it's Mr Eurotroll when you speak to me



 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
8,790
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Name calling and emotes.. the way of the intellect.
Sorry, I felt that you hadn't called enough people shills yet while at the same time exposing your own financial conflict of interest.

And as you haven't addressed a single one of my points regarding the known flaws in Moore's moviemaking, I cannot see any reason why I am supposed to be compelled to address yours specifically. That the US healthcare system is flawed is not something I disagreed with (in fact, I specifically agreed that it is from my first post in this thread), so I cannot see what point you could possibly be trying to make by pretending that I did disagree, except as straw man.
Ah, the old "you aren't doing mine, so I won't do yours".. nonsense.. post a list of YOUR concerns and I will address them.. don't tell me what OTHERS think,.. use your own brain and your own "viewing" to list them.

Wait.. didn't you just accuse someone of trollingin your very last post? This is different from calling someone a shill? At least I have evidence... you have nothing but your dislike for his post!

My own financial conflict of interest!?!?! HAHAHAHA! I trade stocks for a living! If anything, my opinion actually HURTS my chance at profit you fool! Some things are so morally distressing that you have to go against your own financial interests for the better good... something you would never understand...

Of course, you were just justifying your lashing out childishly with name calling and emoticons... no surprise that you need to justify your actions with thingsy ou decide to assume and make up on the spot!
Okay... let's take this point by point because you're so slow.
- I never disagreed that there are flaws and abuses in the US healthcare system, in fact I stated exactly that there are already in this thread, so your continual demanding that I argue against my own position in order to support yours is straw man.
- What I did argue is EXACTLY in favor of what the OP argued, i.e. that the movie would have been a better argument if Moore had been more intellectually honest, an opinion held by UHC opponents and proponents alike, and which you have not addressed throughout this thread (except to call it attacking the messenger). Once again, see the vast number of Canadians and Europeans who say that their health care systems are no where near as good as how Moore portrayed them, then try to explain to me how pointing out that somehow implies that I (or anyone) think that the US system is not flawed.
- You have called everyone who you even assumed of disagreeing with you a "paid shill."
- You exposed your own financial conflict of interest in this thread (and in every health care thread here in which you take part in) by lamenting your own health care costs, pre-existing conditions, etc etc.
- Your usual tactic of name-calling and childishness is not going to help you here, no matter how much you play I'm rubberband and you're glue.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
8,790
126
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
they have a GNP / capita that is more then $20k higher then the USA combined with big budget surplusses

these evil socialists must be doing something right, it looks to me that their politicians have a fiscal responsibility that democrats and republicans can only dream of
Socialists have nothing to do with it. The Socialists are a rather minor party in Norway. What the Norwegians do have is better political representation, with 7 political parties current holding national legislative office in a country with an area and population smaller than most US states.
Contrast that with the choices in the US, where only the 2 major parties hold national office, and they are more similar to each other than any of all the parties in Norway.
all these parties would be labeled "socialist" or "lefties" in the USA

the funny thing is that the scandinavian countries and countries like luxembourg have at the same time big government influence and very open economies. They have been running left leaning policies for decades (in the USA some of these policies would even be labeled communist) and still manage to be on the top of any possible indicator about income, freedom, education, healthcare ....
Really? Even the Conservative party, Christian Democratic party, Christian Unity party, and Abortion Opponents party?
And what about the fact that Norway still has a king who still (nominally) holds de jure executive power, and that the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway is still the state religion/church?

:roll:

Quit trolling. Not all of us are so stupid as to believe the internet Eurotroll lies about Europe being some kind of socialists paradise.
really, as always you don't have a clue what you are talking about. We don't want trolls like you to live in our socialist paradise because frankly we don't like arrogant people. We rather have them on the other side of the ocean. You come in every thread with your holier-then-aything-i-know-everything and the equator is also running through my ass atitude

what I was saying is in my post was despite all these different parties and their ideological differences on ethical stuff they all have common left leaning policies
-universal healthcare
-government intervention (statoil is mostly owned by the norwegian state for example)
-extensive laws regarding paid vacation, maternal leave, ...
- ....


are you denying that these are not typical left leaning (or socialist) policies?
are you denying that Norway, Luxembourg have higher GNP / capita combined with fiscal surplusses?
are you denying that these countries, despite all this government intervention score very high in just about every indicator about income, health, education, ...

please answer instead of starting one of your typical i-know-better rants

BTW, it's Mr Eurotroll when you speak to me
Get over yourself. If you tell an obvious lie in order to avoid the issue, then you're going to get treated like a liar. I addressed the specific issue involved. And look at you, from your little rich country the size and population of Massachusetts acting like there are no differences of scale in managing a diverse nation many times larger.
What if I went on European message boards arguing that it should be the EU who provides your healthcare, and not your individual governments (most US states have their own healthcare systems FYI), and claimed that you all suck and are somehow politically "evil" if you disagreed?
Does that get the point across to you?
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
71
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
they have a GNP / capita that is more then $20k higher then the USA combined with big budget surplusses

these evil socialists must be doing something right, it looks to me that their politicians have a fiscal responsibility that democrats and republicans can only dream of
Socialists have nothing to do with it. The Socialists are a rather minor party in Norway. What the Norwegians do have is better political representation, with 7 political parties current holding national legislative office in a country with an area and population smaller than most US states.
Contrast that with the choices in the US, where only the 2 major parties hold national office, and they are more similar to each other than any of all the parties in Norway.
all these parties would be labeled "socialist" or "lefties" in the USA

the funny thing is that the scandinavian countries and countries like luxembourg have at the same time big government influence and very open economies. They have been running left leaning policies for decades (in the USA some of these policies would even be labeled communist) and still manage to be on the top of any possible indicator about income, freedom, education, healthcare ....
Really? Even the Conservative party, Christian Democratic party, Christian Unity party, and Abortion Opponents party?
And what about the fact that Norway still has a king who still (nominally) holds de jure executive power, and that the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway is still the state religion/church?

:roll:

Quit trolling. Not all of us are so stupid as to believe the internet Eurotroll lies about Europe being some kind of socialists paradise.
really, as always you don't have a clue what you are talking about. We don't want trolls like you to live in our socialist paradise because frankly we don't like arrogant people. We rather have them on the other side of the ocean. You come in every thread with your holier-then-aything-i-know-everything and the equator is also running through my ass atitude

what I was saying is in my post was despite all these different parties and their ideological differences on ethical stuff they all have common left leaning policies
-universal healthcare
-government intervention (statoil is mostly owned by the norwegian state for example)
-extensive laws regarding paid vacation, maternal leave, ...
- ....


are you denying that these are not typical left leaning (or socialist) policies?
are you denying that Norway, Luxembourg have higher GNP / capita combined with fiscal surplusses?
are you denying that these countries, despite all this government intervention score very high in just about every indicator about income, health, education, ...

please answer instead of starting one of your typical i-know-better rants

BTW, it's Mr Eurotroll when you speak to me
Get over yourself. If you tell an obvious lie in order to avoid the issue, then you're going to get treated like a liar. I addressed the specific issue involved. And look at you, from your little rich country the size and population of Massachusetts acting like there are no differences of scale in managing a diverse nation many times larger.
What if I went on European message boards arguing that it should be the EU who provides your healthcare, and not your individual governments (most US states have their own healthcare systems FYI), and claimed that you all suck and are somehow politically "evil" if you disagreed?
Does that get the point across to you?
typically, you don't answer my questions.

It must really hurt for a convinced free-market-will solve-anything-guy like you, that a country like Norway, where the govt. manages a big part of the economy has citizens who have more money and live longer then you


btw, which lie did I tell and where did I say that the US sucks?


btw2: i doubt that you would go on an european message board, I doubt that you speak or write anything other then english
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
8,790
126
Originally posted by: freegeeks
typically, you don't answer my questions.

It must really hurt for a convinced free-market-will solve-anything-guy like you, that a country like Norway, where the govt. manages a big part of the economy has citizens who have more money and live longer then you


btw, which lie did I tell and where did I say that the US sucks?
IF we were talking free-market-will-solve-anything, you might have a point, but we're not so you don't. My argument has been regarding the differences in scale between Norway and the US, which you have ignored.

Yo hablo y escribo espanol, pendejo.



 

homercles337

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2004
6,345
3
71
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
i don't believe in supporting lies, even if they are supposedly for my side.
Oh cool... so you wouldn't mind pointing out a few of these lies for yourself?

Since I am sure you saw the movie, without linking to OTHER peoples' "opinions", please point out what you thought were lies about the american system shown in the movie.

I don't expect to see you here again!

if you don't understand that michael moore distorts the truth to make his points you have your head stuck pretty deeply in a hole. i believe in consistency of values. imagine if a right wing "documentary" maker took the same liberties. would you just say..oh thats fine?
No. The educated left tends to refute right-wing "documentaries" with truth and facts. Something *seriously* lacking in the right, and in this thread.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
71
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
typically, you don't answer my questions.

It must really hurt for a convinced free-market-will solve-anything-guy like you, that a country like Norway, where the govt. manages a big part of the economy has citizens who have more money and live longer then you


btw, which lie did I tell and where did I say that the US sucks?
IF we were talking free-market-will-solve-anything, you might have a point, but we're not so you don't. My argument has been regarding the differences in scale between Norway and the US, which you have ignored.
why it is some so damn hard for people to acknowledge that sometimes lefty or even "socialist" policies (oops, I said the forbidden word) can be successfull? Are you really so wrapped up in your own ideas that it blinds you that maybe, just maybe you can learn something of these evil "socialists"

you don't answer questions and you imply things that I never said, a typical Vic thread

 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Okay... let's take this point by point because you're so slow.

It is because I won't deal with generalities.


- I never disagreed that there are flaws and abuses in the US healthcare system, in fact I stated exactly that there are already in this thread, so your continual demanding that I argue against my own position in order to support yours is straw man.

This is part of the movie? Where?

- What I did argue is EXACTLY in favor of what the OP argued, i.e. that the movie would have been a better argument if Moore had been more intellectually honest, an opinion held by UHC opponents and proponents alike, and which you have not addressed throughout this thread (except to call it attacking the messenger). Once again, see the vast number of Canadians and Europeans who say that their health care systems are no where near as good as how Moore portrayed them, then try to explain to me how pointing out that somehow implies that I (or anyone) think that the US system is not flawed.

Where is this in the movie? I am also pretty sure I said I'd be up to talk about the American portion only.


- You have called everyone who you even assumed of disagreeing with you a "paid shill."

This is in the movie? WHere?

- You exposed your own financial conflict of interest in this thread (and in every health care thread here in which you take part in) by lamenting your own health care costs, pre-existing conditions, etc etc.

This is in the movie? Where?

I have had medical problems.. so if you have medical problems, you have a conflict of interest? Well, that should eliminate a good 80+% of the entire population from forming an opinion here.. only those in perfect health need apply?

- Your usual tactic of name-calling and childishness is not going to help you here, no matter how much you play I'm rubberband and you're glue.[/quote]

This is in the movie? WHere? I never name called.. but you called me a moron... Quote my name calling please.

So once again, not ONE actual point from the movie. Nothing actually discussed... And yet you want us to believe you saw the movie?

I listed points from the movie... you haven't debated any of them or pointed out anything from the movie yourself.

If you actually become interested in talking about the movie, feel free to start any time.



Since I am the only one actually discussing the movie.. you know.. being the "slow" one and all.. here are things ACTUALLY IN the movie that is supposed to be discussed here.

Hospitals dumping people at the curb when "treatment" is done.
Insurances paying people to deny claims by looking through history to find any excuse(yeast infection)
Insurances denying claims to cancer patients(killing them)
The health industry buying out our politicians and then hiring them into big pharma positions.
Denying insurance to anyone that might possibly hurt profits.
Health insurances giving benefits to doctors that deny claims.
Congress being completely bought out and hired by big Pharma and Insurance companies(even Clinton!)

These are specifics in the movie... Not one person has even attempted to address them.

The challenge remains open still.. Vic, if you want to take points in the movie and address them.. I would love to actually talk about the movie!

It is really depressing that not one person who has "seen" and "hates" the movie has actually been able to even point out ONE point in the American side of the movie... all they seem to know is what is in the coming attractions! It is sad and pathetic.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
8,790
126
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
typically, you don't answer my questions.

It must really hurt for a convinced free-market-will solve-anything-guy like you, that a country like Norway, where the govt. manages a big part of the economy has citizens who have more money and live longer then you


btw, which lie did I tell and where did I say that the US sucks?
IF we were talking free-market-will-solve-anything, you might have a point, but we're not so you don't. My argument has been regarding the differences in scale between Norway and the US, which you have ignored.
why it is some so damn hard for people to acknowledge that sometimes lefty or even "socialist" policies (oops, I said the forbidden word) can be successfull? Are you really so wrapped up in your own ideas that it blinds you that maybe, just maybe you can learn something of these evil "socialists"

you don't answer questions and you imply things that I never said, a typical Vic thread
What part of this:
Socialists have nothing to do with it. The Socialists are a rather minor party in Norway. What the Norwegians do have is better political representation, with 7 political parties current holding national legislative office in a country with an area and population smaller than most US states.
Contrast that with the choices in the US, where only the 2 major parties hold national office, and they are more similar to each other than any of all the parties in Norway.
... was so hard to understand or address?
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
typically, you don't answer my questions.

It must really hurt for a convinced free-market-will solve-anything-guy like you, that a country like Norway, where the govt. manages a big part of the economy has citizens who have more money and live longer then you


btw, which lie did I tell and where did I say that the US sucks?
IF we were talking free-market-will-solve-anything, you might have a point, but we're not so you don't. My argument has been regarding the differences in scale between Norway and the US, which you have ignored.
why it is some so damn hard for people to acknowledge that sometimes lefty or even "socialist" policies (oops, I said the forbidden word) can be successfull? Are you really so wrapped up in your own ideas that it blinds you that maybe, just maybe you can learn something of these evil "socialists"

you don't answer questions and you imply things that I never said, a typical Vic thread
What part of this:
Socialists have nothing to do with it. The Socialists are a rather minor party in Norway. What the Norwegians do have is better political representation, with 7 political parties current holding national legislative office in a country with an area and population smaller than most US states.
Contrast that with the choices in the US, where only the 2 major parties hold national office, and they are more similar to each other than any of all the parties in Norway.
... was so hard to understand or address?
You can;t even address or understand the fact that I asked you to list parts of the movie you disagree with.. It's been 3 pages and you haven't even stated one thing that happened in the movie regarding the American section(2/3 of the movie)... I've only asked you 15 times... and then call ME slow!

Oh, Also, my income is in the top 3%... so I have no problem with my own health insurance.. if anything, having medical problems makes you more sympathetic and compassionate towards other people with the same problems.. instead of being someone so cold and isolated from other people that they prefer only what is financially beneficial for themselves...
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
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Yeah, shadow, you're in the movie calling everyone who isn't a Moore disciple a shill.

:roll:
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
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Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, shadow, you're in the movie calling everyone who isn't a Moore disciple a shill.

:roll:
So, you can't point out anything from the movie because you haven't seen it.. and all attempts to try to make it seem like you have seen it without actually pointing out anything have failed.. so you try to be sarcastic... doesn't that qualify as trolling?

You go into a topic about a movie you haven't seen.

You refuse to address other people's points of the movie.

You refuse to point out anything you'd like to criticize about the movie...

And then you name call and call OTHER people trolls...
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
8,790
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Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, shadow, you're in the movie calling everyone who isn't a Moore disciple a shill.

:roll:
So, you can't point out anything from the movie because you haven't seen it.. and all attempts to try to make it seem like you have seen it without actually pointing out anything have failed.. so you try to be sarcastic... doesn't that qualify as trolling?

You go into a topic about a movie you haven't seen.

You refuse to address other people's points of the movie.

You refuse to point out anything you'd like to criticize about the movie...

And then you name call and call OTHER people trolls...
It is really hard for me to believe that anyone is as stupid as you are.

Maybe... just maybe... when you quit trying to make up my arguments for me (like how I never claimed to disagree with those parts of the movie that you claim I disagree with), and look at what I've actually argued, you might get it. I won't hold my breath though.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
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Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Vic
Yeah, shadow, you're in the movie calling everyone who isn't a Moore disciple a shill.

:roll:
So, you can't point out anything from the movie because you haven't seen it.. and all attempts to try to make it seem like you have seen it without actually pointing out anything have failed.. so you try to be sarcastic... doesn't that qualify as trolling?

You go into a topic about a movie you haven't seen.

You refuse to address other people's points of the movie.

You refuse to point out anything you'd like to criticize about the movie...

And then you name call and call OTHER people trolls...
It is really hard for me to believe that anyone is as stupid as you are.

Maybe... just maybe... when you quit trying to make up my arguments for me (like how I never claimed to disagree with those parts of the movie that you claim I disagree with), and look at what I've actually argued, you might get it. I won't hold my breath though.
Point out something from the movie or stop wasting our time. This is not a broad UHC discussion.. It is a discussion of the movie..

You go into a topic about a movie you haven't seen.

You refuse to address other people's points of the movie.

You refuse to point out anything you'd like to criticize about the movie...

Feel free to refute the MOVIE points I brought up that you've ignored for 4 pages now! Need me to post them for the 15th time?


"(like how I never claimed to disagree with those parts of the movie that you claim I disagree with)"

Huh? I've asked you to respond to the points in the movie I brought up and you haven't... I could therefore not claim your opinion is anything.. you haven't stated an opinion yet about anything in the American portion of the movie(the majority of the movie)...

You've so far:

Given your opinion of UHC
-Attacked moore
-attacked me
-claimed that there are tons of things wrong in the movie, yet can't cite any specific examples despite about 10 challenges to.
-refuse to respond to my citings of the movie
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,195
8,790
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Sicko was par for the course Moore. He starts off with some good premises and makes some good points, and then throws it all away on obvious lies and glossed-over generalizations. Yes, the US health care system desperately needs fixing, but no, it's not all sunshine and roses everywhere else.
Like in BFC, where he rightly calls the US media to task for fearmongering and improper correlation (which is the title of the movie), and then fearmongers himself in favor of gun control, proposes a singular silly idea for how to bring about gun control (most of the real "gun nuts" already make their own bullets), and labels a former Civil Rights leader a racist.
His style makes sense if you consider that he's just propagandizing to the typical knee-jerk member of the United States of Amnesia, but if you're actually aware of the facts and the circumstances, you can easily see through his nonsense and recognize that the real solutions are nowhere near as simplistic black-and-white as he tries to make them out to be. Complex problems are made worse when you try to fix them with simple solutions.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
53,885
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Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
typically, you don't answer my questions.

It must really hurt for a convinced free-market-will solve-anything-guy like you, that a country like Norway, where the govt. manages a big part of the economy has citizens who have more money and live longer then you


btw, which lie did I tell and where did I say that the US sucks?
IF we were talking free-market-will-solve-anything, you might have a point, but we're not so you don't. My argument has been regarding the differences in scale between Norway and the US, which you have ignored.
why it is some so damn hard for people to acknowledge that sometimes lefty or even "socialist" policies (oops, I said the forbidden word) can be successfull? Are you really so wrapped up in your own ideas that it blinds you that maybe, just maybe you can learn something of these evil "socialists"

you don't answer questions and you imply things that I never said, a typical Vic thread
Quite simply: Because socialist policies invariably lead to a loss of freedoms and/or rights. You cannot have someone else taking care of you without them seeking to limit/control your actions. Especially when that someone are voters.

With freedom comes risk. Populist/socialist/liberal policies seek to limit that risk. The only way to do that is to, in the end, limit freedom.

We are already well down that road. "The cost to society" (because of socialist programs) has been used as an argument to limit many of our freedoms and rights. From unconstitutional DUI checkpoints to seatbelt/helmet laws. From "fat taxes" to smoking taxes.

In fact, it's the main battle cry in the war on drugs. And we all know the freedoms and rights lost to that.

No thanks. I'll pay for myself and keep my freedom... even if the populist/progressive/liberal thinks he knows better than I do what's good for me.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Vic
Sicko was par for the course Moore. He starts off with some good premises and makes some good points, and then throws it all away on obvious lies and glossed-over generalizations. Yes, the US health care system desperately needs fixing, but no, it's not all sunshine and roses everywhere else.
Like in BFC, where he rightly calls the US media to task for fearmongering and improper correlation (which is the title of the movie), and then fearmongers himself in favor of gun control, proposes a singular silly idea for how to bring about gun control (most of the real "gun nuts" already make their own bullets), and labels a former Civil Rights leader a racist.
His style makes sense if you consider that he's just propagandizing to the typical knee-jerk member of the United States of Amnesia, but if you're actually aware of the facts and the circumstances, you can easily see through his nonsense and recognize that the real solutions are nowhere near as simplistic black-and-white as he tries to make them out to be. Complex problems are made worse when you try to fix them with simple solutions.
Yes, all generalities.. no specific instances of the movie to criticize.. just a broad stroke to generalize..

Not one specific instance of anything there.

Which leads me to believe you are copying and pasting someone else's generalities.

All it would take is a recollection of the movie that you SAW and point out some problems with it... Take a circumstance..

Let's do it step by step.

pick a scene(american portion)-

Hillary Clinton being pro UHC and then becoming the biggest receiver to. insurance/big pharma contributions.

Criticize what you disagree with it- I disagree because ....

Take another instance-

Etc. etc etc.

"The movie is all lies" tells us nothing.

So, for the 27th time, name a few scenes that you disagreed with and why.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
1
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
typically, you don't answer my questions.

It must really hurt for a convinced free-market-will solve-anything-guy like you, that a country like Norway, where the govt. manages a big part of the economy has citizens who have more money and live longer then you


btw, which lie did I tell and where did I say that the US sucks?
IF we were talking free-market-will-solve-anything, you might have a point, but we're not so you don't. My argument has been regarding the differences in scale between Norway and the US, which you have ignored.
why it is some so damn hard for people to acknowledge that sometimes lefty or even "socialist" policies (oops, I said the forbidden word) can be successfull? Are you really so wrapped up in your own ideas that it blinds you that maybe, just maybe you can learn something of these evil "socialists"

you don't answer questions and you imply things that I never said, a typical Vic thread
Quite simply: Because socialist policies invariably lead to a loss of freedoms and/or rights. You cannot have someone else taking care of you without them seeking to limit/control your actions. Especially when that someone are voters.

With freedom comes risk. Populist/socialist/liberal policies seek to limit that risk. The only way to do that is to, in the end, limit freedom.

We are already well down that road. "The cost to society" (because of socialist programs) has been used as an argument to limit many of our freedoms and rights. From unconstitutional DUI checkpoints to seatbelt/helmet laws. From "fat taxes" to smoking taxes.

In fact, it's the main battle cry in the war on drugs. And we all know the freedoms and rights lost to that.

No thanks. I'll pay for myself and keep my freedom... even if the populist/progressive/liberal thinks he knows better than I do what's good for me.
The army, education system, post office, fire, and police offices have restricted your rights?

You do realize that you still have private healthcare in UHCs right? You still have all the choices you want.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
53,885
6,918
126
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: freegeeks
typically, you don't answer my questions.

It must really hurt for a convinced free-market-will solve-anything-guy like you, that a country like Norway, where the govt. manages a big part of the economy has citizens who have more money and live longer then you


btw, which lie did I tell and where did I say that the US sucks?
IF we were talking free-market-will-solve-anything, you might have a point, but we're not so you don't. My argument has been regarding the differences in scale between Norway and the US, which you have ignored.
why it is some so damn hard for people to acknowledge that sometimes lefty or even "socialist" policies (oops, I said the forbidden word) can be successfull? Are you really so wrapped up in your own ideas that it blinds you that maybe, just maybe you can learn something of these evil "socialists"

you don't answer questions and you imply things that I never said, a typical Vic thread
Quite simply: Because socialist policies invariably lead to a loss of freedoms and/or rights. You cannot have someone else taking care of you without them seeking to limit/control your actions. Especially when that someone are voters.

With freedom comes risk. Populist/socialist/liberal policies seek to limit that risk. The only way to do that is to, in the end, limit freedom.

We are already well down that road. "The cost to society" (because of socialist programs) has been used as an argument to limit many of our freedoms and rights. From unconstitutional DUI checkpoints to seatbelt/helmet laws. From "fat taxes" to smoking taxes.

In fact, it's the main battle cry in the war on drugs. And we all know the freedoms and rights lost to that.

No thanks. I'll pay for myself and keep my freedom... even if the populist/progressive/liberal thinks he knows better than I do what's good for me.
The army, education system, post office, fire, and police offices have restricted your rights?

You do realize that you still have private healthcare in UHCs right? You still have all the choices you want.
The point went right over your head. I even spelled it out for you in my post and gave valid examples of freedoms/rights lost to socialist policies/"the cost to society" and it still went right over your head.

Wow.
 

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