John McCain--American Hero

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: loki8481
sacrificing and serving your country is more honorable than happening to be born to a black non-african american father.

neither serves as a qualification to be president.

Having the good judgement to stay the hell out of an unjustified war killing innocent people would impress me more for a presidential candidate than serving a wrong cause.

Yes, he had some *other* qualities for doing so.

But not some important ones. At least Kerry had the morals and sense to fight against the war after serving, though the right doesn't see those qualities, and just a 'flip flop'.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: bthorny
(If Mccain was a democrat this is the story line that would be getting thrown around))

He is no hero he betrayed this country and spilled all the beans to the enemy on intel...

He cracked because he is weak and is probably still being controlled by vietnamese intelligence services...Obviously McCain is a traitor....and was brainwashed by the viet-cong..to be a commie and if he is elected will make stalin look like a libertarian...

I'd really like to see an example of the right doing this to a liberal former POW. I'm sure you have one.

All I see is the exact opposite of 4 years ago, when the left was slobbering all over Kerry and his war record while denouncing Bush for his lack of service. Now you have the exact opposite, proving that both Republicans and Democrats are complete hypocrites.

There is no 'Swift Boat Veterans against McCain' group on the left lying about his military record, proving the opposite of what you said.

Saying that his military service doesn't mean he'd be a good president is not the same as saying lies about his faking his medals and such.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: sandorski
If only he'd had won the nomination in 2000 instead of Bush.

Would have agreed in 2000 but disagree now. We wouldn't have found out about his character flaw about caving to the likes of the bushes, cheneys and neocons.

We do remember the picture of him hugging bush (to the point of it being embarrassing) a few years ago, right?

And yes, there are people you have I respected who have done things that cause me to no longer respect them. The opposite is also true.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Barack Obama
Even Obama says he served his country well. No-one is denying that fact.

I don't understand why you keep referring to yourself in the third person. Quit being coy and tell us what's next...

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I have a great deal of respect for McCain's "service" in the Hanoi Hilton. By any account, those were not easy billets. There have been a couple of attempts to "swiftboat" him over some alleged rumors of favoritism because of his father's position, but they seem to be mere vapors with little-to-no substance...and that's good. However, when you read about his involvment in the USS Forrestal "incident", it casts a very dark cloud over his service record. MOST accounts indicate that the whole thing was of McCain's causing:
http://judicial-inc.biz/82jjohn_mccain_and_the_uss_forresta.htm

http://tekgnosis.typepad.com/t...2/john-mccain-and.html

http://www.vietnamveteransagai...mccain_lost_five_u.htm
(20 hours of flight time (combat flight) and 28 medals? Sounds like someone was sucking up to his Daddy)

Complete and utter bullshit. The USS Forrestal fire was fully investigated and there's never even been an allegation that McCain had any role in the fire apart from being unfortunate enough to be next to the plane that was hit by the Zuni rocket that started the fire. So I guess when you say "most accounts" you mean "no accounts."

As for the allegation that McCain had only 20 hours of combat flight time and received an inordinate number of medals, its only this idiot making that allegation. Since it is a matter of historical record that John McCain was on his twenty-third combat mission when he was shot down, that would suggest combat time well in excess of twenty hours given the flight time to Hanoi and back from a carrier stationed in the Tonkin Gulf. Finally, combat flight time is a small measure of a fighter pilot's total career flight time. John McCain graduated from flight school in 1960 and spent his entire career as a fighter pilot until being shot down in October 1967. Seven years as a navy fighter pilot equates with literally, thousands of hours of actual flight time.

As for the number of medals McCain received, many of those were for his action in captivity, which has nothing to do with the number of combat hours he flew. Navy releases McCain's military record.

 

[lupi]

Look at all the Hussein attack dogs come out when someone starts a nondirected thread about their messiahs opponent. Laughable.

 

[extra]

McCain is a great American and someone who deserves our respect and admiration and awe for the things that he went through and has done.

This, however, does not mean he would make a good president or has the views and intellect necessary to lead this country at this specific time. When I vote against him it will not be out of any dislike of him as a person, it will be because I do not like his policies and those whom he associates himself with. I wish him the best and hope he lives to be 120 and seriously I hope he sticks around in the Senate for a long time, but I don't want him as president. Simple as that.

Oh, and those who are trying to swiftboat McCain are just as scummy as the ones who tried to do it to Kerry. Show some dignity.

Which is what makes me so happy about what this race has came down too. McCain vs. Obama. (Disclaimer: I am an Obama supporter at this point). Both people that seem to have dignity. I do of course disagree strongly with McCain on most issues. But I hope both sides will keep some morals this time around.

 

[ericlp]

OK, HERO!

Yeah... Whoopee!

Boy this thread is rich....... My respect ends when he wants my vote........ Not that I am voting... I wore the uniform too for 8+ years.. Big deal..... Can I be a president now?

Sorry this tool isn't going to get much respect from me. About as much respect as I would any fool running for president ... yes even bush... like my #13 booting him in the ass.

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: extra
McCain is a great American and someone who deserves our respect and admiration and awe for the things that he went through and has done.

This, however, does not mean he would make a good president or has the views and intellect necessary to lead this country at this specific time. When I vote against him it will not be out of any dislike of him as a person, it will be because I do not like his policies and those whom he associates himself with. I wish him the best and hope he lives to be 120 and seriously I hope he sticks around in the Senate for a long time, but I don't want him as president. Simple as that.

Oh, and those who are trying to swiftboat McCain are just as scummy as the ones who tried to do it to Kerry. Show some dignity.

Which is what makes me so happy about what this race has came down too. McCain vs. Obama. (Disclaimer: I am an Obama supporter at this point). Both people that seem to have dignity. I do of course disagree strongly with McCain on most issues. But I hope both sides will keep some morals this time around.

[Applause] I may not ultimately agree with your choice of candidate, but you are a decent and fair person. :thumbsup:

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/fem...ously-left-behind.html

this may also be a black mark

Just more proof McCain is a first-class douche nozzle.

Dumping your loving wife and three children so you can bag a bikini model with your newfound POW fame?

Slimy.

You forgot *RICH*

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: loki8481
Harvey's calling McCain a flip-flopper... it's a topsy turvy world we're living in.

seemed like just 4 years ago that switching positions for political expediency was the in thing to do.

:thumbsup:

You two just don't get it, do you?

Switching positions for political expediency is NEVER the right thing to do. Switching positions because time has revealed that your previous position was incorrect is ALWAYS the right thing to do.

Now, if you want to really get down and dirty with the facts, Kerry's switch was because the previous position was one that didn't mesh with the facts of the current knowledge of the situation (war in Iraq).

McCain's position is that even in light of all of the knowledge that we have today...he needs the support of the evangelicals who still think that we should be proud Americans and never question whether our country did the right thing or not. So, to gain that respect, he has to now embrace positions that have been proven to be on the wrong side of the aisle.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

John McCain WAS a war hero, as was GHWB.
War Hero <> good president.
War Hero = honorable, and deserves respect for what they went through.
After he gave up his spine to dumbya, he lost all credibility, war hero or not.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: lupi
Look at all the Hussein attack dogs come out when someone starts a nondirected thread about their messiahs opponent. Laughable.

Look at the bitter Hillary supporter troll still trying to tie Obama to radical islam. Pathetic. :roll:

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: lupi
Look at all the Hussein attack dogs come out when someone starts a nondirected thread about their messiahs opponent. Laughable.

Look at the bitter Hillary supporter troll still trying to tie Obama to radical islam. Pathetic. :roll:

Saddam Hussein didn't have ties to radical islam... unless you're some kind of TRAITOR IN CHIEF war of lies supporter? :|

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: manowar821
So, he's a real grade-A asshole, but he was captured in combat... So now he's cool? Why do people act like indignant jerk-offs when people don't like politicians that have "served"? He's not U.S. representative material, no amount of military service can change that one way or the other. And no, being in the military does not make you "more of a man" (it doesn't make you less of a man, either, though).

Being captured in combat is analogous to 50 cent or 2Pac taking bullets and surviving, it earns you "street cred" and you become famous. Many think that just because you survived something life threatening, you're tougher. Primal levels of cognitive thinking at its best.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: lupi
Look at all the Hussein attack dogs come out when someone starts a nondirected thread about their messiahs opponent. Laughable.

Look at the bitter Hillary supporter troll still trying to tie Obama to radical islam. Pathetic. :roll:

Saddam Hussein didn't have ties to radical islam... unless you're some kind of TRAITOR IN CHIEF war of lies supporter? :|

Yep and those who would buy into the troll lupi's garbage are just that type. :laugh:

 

[UberNeuman]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: lupi
Look at all the Hussein attack dogs come out when someone starts a nondirected thread about their messiahs opponent. Laughable.

Look at the bitter Hillary supporter troll still trying to tie Obama to radical islam. Pathetic. :roll:

It's funny that the bitter Hillary supporters keep crying "messiah" as they keep clutching onto their golden idol...

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: lupi
Look at all the Hussein attack dogs come out when someone starts a nondirected thread about their messiahs opponent. Laughable.

Look at the pathetic, brain dead fool who thinks endlessly shouting Obama's middle name proves anything other than that he's a pathetic, brain dead fool. :laugh:

 

[lupi]

It makes those going around saying hilldabeast or mcsame cry inside a little every time they read it, so works for me.

 

[purplehippo]

Well - whomever becomes President I will feel very sorry for. It will be a thankless job for years to come. Judging by the comments in this particular forum - it's impossible to contribute anything meaningful. Thankfully, I bet most of the keyboard jocky's in here won't even take the time to vote so maybe we have less to worry about than we think. I don't think I have read a longer list of disrespectful dribble in all my life. What ever happened to character? Some of you people should not have the right to free speech. With it comes responsibility. It takes a rare person to serve a country in these times. When you can belittle a man for being a serviceman with distiction and a POW there is something wrong, terribly wrong. EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH HIS POLITICS. Please save your comments for someone else. I have given up reading as of now in here. Reading this stuff is like walking through the devastation of a war or a severe disaster. It just gives you a sick feeling in the craw of your stomach. There is a sickness in this country and it's not republican or democrat. It's the people and it's going to get worse before it gets better. I for one will be praying for the people of this country and the people who will attempt to serve them. Most do not deserve their effort.

 

[seemingly random]

If the op is this quick and vigorous to defend and apologize for his boy at this point, he's going to be quite busy later. I'm guessing that the op is going to be one who comes apart at times. Although, I imagine he'll have help from some of the other party faithful...

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: purplehippo
Well - whomever becomes President I will feel very sorry for. It will be a thankless job for years to come. Judging by the comments in this particular forum - it's impossible to contribute anything meaningful. Thankfully, I bet most of the keyboard jocky's in here won't even take the time to vote so maybe we have less to worry about than we think. I don't think I have read a longer list of disrespectful dribble in all my life. What ever happened to character? Some of you people should not have the right to free speech. With it comes responsibility. It takes a rare person to serve a country in these times. When you can belittle a man for being a serviceman with distiction and a POW there is something wrong, terribly wrong. EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH HIS POLITICS. Please save your comments for someone else. I have given up reading as of now in here. Reading this stuff is like walking through the devastation of a war or a severe disaster. It just gives you a sick feeling in the craw of your stomach. There is a sickness in this country and it's not republican or democrat. It's the people and it's going to get worse before it gets better. I for one will be praying for the people of this country and the people who will attempt to serve them. Most do not deserve their effort.

What a complete load of Grade-A USDA horseshit.

Free speech is not something that carries with it the responsibility of not criticizing a person because they were a soldier at the time or at any other time in his/her life.

Following your logic, we should all still be sucking up to GWB because he was a service man and we are in a time of war so we also shouldn't point out that the economy blows dog right now because America needs us to support her while she is serving the world's interests in battle.

McCain was shot down. That deserves criticism. He was unable to effectively either avoid air-to-air combat or ground-to-air combat. Should we applaud that fact because he was a service man at the time?

I don't criticize what happened to him as a POW because I know I would probably do or say anything to stop the torture that was being inflicted on me. But to say that his military experience is off limits is tantamount to claiming that Obama's church is off limits because we should all respect religion.

 

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: purplehippo
McCain was shot down. That deserves criticism. He was unable to effectively either avoid air-to-air combat or ground-to-air combat. Should we applaud that fact because he was a service man at the time?

Just when I thought this forum couldn't go any lower, somebody finds a shovel. You think McCain deserves criticism for being shot down while bombing Hanoi?. That kind of thing is inexcusable and really just shows your ignorance. The circumstances of McCain's downing are a matter of public record:

On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane attack against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi[83][84] that had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids.[81] As he neared the target, warning systems in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk told him he was in danger from enemy fire.[85] He held his dive until he released his bombs at about 3,500 feet (1,000 meters)[86] (he would be awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for this day).[80] As he started to pull up, the Skyhawk's wing was blown off by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile fired by the North Vietnamese Air Defense Command's 61st Battalion.[81]

I guess there must have been a lot of navy pilots deserving of criticism from Ace Fighter Pilot Right is Wrong inasmuch as the aircraft carrier McCain flew off of, the CUSS Oriskany, lost half of its aircraft in 122 days.

 

[dennilfloss]

Oops. That link was already posted.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: purplehippo
McCain was shot down. That deserves criticism. He was unable to effectively either avoid air-to-air combat or ground-to-air combat. Should we applaud that fact because he was a service man at the time?

Just when I thought this forum couldn't go any lower, somebody finds a shovel. You think McCain deserves criticism for being shot down while bombing Hanoi?. That kind of thing is inexcusable and really just shows your ignorance. The circumstances of McCain's downing are a matter of public record:

On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying his twenty-third mission, part of a twenty-plane attack against the Yen Phu thermal power plant in central Hanoi[83][84] that had almost always been off-limits to U.S. raids.[81] As he neared the target, warning systems in McCain's A-4E Skyhawk told him he was in danger from enemy fire.[85] He held his dive until he released his bombs at about 3,500 feet (1,000 meters)[86] (he would be awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for this day).[80] As he started to pull up, the Skyhawk's wing was blown off by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile fired by the North Vietnamese Air Defense Command's 61st Battalion.[81]

I guess there must have been a lot of navy pilots deserving of criticism from Ace Fighter Pilot Right is Wrong inasmuch as the aircraft carrier McCain flew off of, the CUSS Oriskany, lost half of its aircraft in 122 days.

And you think that he doesn't deserve any criticism at all? Once again, is he to be held responsible for his ability (or lack thereof) to avoid enemy fire?

You and purplehippo seem unable to detach the situation from the reality of the situation. He was doing a heroic thing by flying into Hanoi. But the fact still remains that he lost his FIFTH aircraft in doing so.

Maybe you can help me out here....I'm having a bit of trouble finding out how many other pilots from that particular mission were taken down. Was he the only one on that mission or were there others?

Also, since we are on the subject....are we not allowed to criticize McCain for talking with the enemy? After all, by his own accounts, he offered up information for medical treatment:

McCain's first person account of POW time

I think it was on the fourth day that two guards came in, instead of one. One of them pulled back the blanket to show the other guard my injury. I looked at my knee. It was about the size, shape and color of a football. I remembered that when I was a flying instructor a fellow had ejected from his plane and broken his thigh. He had gone into shock, the blood had pooled in his leg, and he died, which came as quite a surprise to us?a man dying of a broken leg. Then I realized that a very similar thing was happening to me.

When I saw it, I said to the guard, "O.K., get the officer." An officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as "The Bug." He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." He left and came back with a doctor, a guy that we called "Zorba," who was completely incompetent. He squatted down, took my pulse. He did not speak English, but shook his head and jabbered to "The Bug." I asked, "Are you going to take me to the hospital?" "The Bug" replied, "It's too late." I said, "If you take me to the hospital, I'll get well."

"Zorba" took my pulse again, and repeated, "It's too late." They got up and left, and I lapsed into unconsciousness.

Sometime later, "The Bug" came rushing into the room, shouting, "Your father is a big admiral; now we take you to the hospital."

I tell the story to make this point: There were hardly any amputees among the prisoners who came back because the North Vietnamese just would not give medical treatment to someone who was badly injured?they weren't going to waste their time. For one thing, in the transition from the kind of life we lead in America to the filth and dirt and infection, it would be very difficult for a guy to live anyway. In fact, my treatment in the hospital almost killed me.

Now, none of that discounts what he went through while being captured. I'm glad that he was able to survive. But for you to claim that he doesn't deserve a single bit of criticism based on it is asinine.

You are way too emotional about this issue to think logically about it so I don't expect a real answer from you. However, think about how the survivors of other tragedies are interviewed and evaluated on their performance during their crisis. There is always an investigation which looks at what was done right and what was done wrong. The fact that you are unwilling to admit that anything was done wrong in your evaluation tells me that you aren't one to be listened to about the topic.