Jewish Tunnels

[fskimospy]

Doesn't matter. Law of the land, will probably require death penalty for transgressions. People will either fall in line, or overthrow the government, but them's the breaks if you want to turn over a century or three of war. You gotta break the back of that movement.

What I’m saying is this will never happen because neither of the parties involved want it.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

What I’m saying is this will never happen because neither of the parties involved want it.

Then there's no solution, and it's pointless to ask, or help them. Let them kill each other until one is left, then get them on board with the rest of the world.

 

[MrSquished]

As a neutral third party perspective? Some kind of two state solution based on actual mutual respect, with leadership from both parties supporting each other, and equally punishing deviance from the intended goals among their own. Enforcement must be merciless and complete.

Well according to @fskimospy What they're supposed to do is mass murder, cleansing as they've called it, bombing these people back into the Stone age.

This is a typical position of what we call latte or limousine liberals, like him..

 

[fskimospy]

Then there's no solution, and it's pointless to ask, or help them. Let them kill each other until one is left, then get them on board with the rest of the world.

Ha, fair enough, but really while I feel like there are no heroes here one is better than the other.

And to be clear I am totally down with ending military aid to Israel if for no other reason than they don’t need it, but I do not draw an equivalency between Israel and Hamas.

 

[MrSquished]

The thing is, quite a few well-respected scholars, including holocaust scholars, and UN scholars, are rightly calling this a genocide. And South Africa is doing the right thing and taking Israel to court for this.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Ha, fair enough, but really while I feel like there are no heroes here one is better than the other.

And to be clear I am totally down with ending military aid to Israel if for no other reason than they don’t need it, but I do not draw an equivalency between Israel and Hamas.

Well if the point is to end the conflict for good, you have a very limited set of options as long as both parties are ready to die, you either get them to agree to a peace in a way they can control (probably brutally), or you step in and enforce charge. The latter has historically gone very poorly, so the former is probably better. There may be a better solution but I haven't seen one pop up yet.

Any other solution is likely only temporary, and probably pointless in the long term unless dramatic cultural changes take place without a resurgence of hostilities (which would likely reset any progress).

 

[fskimospy]

Well if the point is to end the conflict for good, you have a very limited set of options as long as both parties are ready to die, you either get them to agree to a peace in a way they can control (probably brutally), or you step in and enforce charge. The latter has historically gone very poorly, so the former is probably better. There may be a better solution but I haven't seen one pop up yet.

Any other solution is likely only temporary, and probably pointless in the long term unless dramatic cultural changes take place without a resurgence of hostilities (which would likely reset any progress).

I guess I’m saying I don’t see a realistic set of circumstances where they come to an agreement. I think we should probably divest ourselves from the situation entirely.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I guess I’m saying I don’t see a realistic set of circumstances where they come to an agreement. I think we should probably divest ourselves from the situation entirely.

Except it inevitably spills over. Either you have local unrest from Muslim groups, local unrest from Jewish groups, or overt terrorism (from within or without) for whatever reason some charismatic idiot wants to give. We don't have the ability to stuff them on the moon to kill each other so some involvement (even if it's purely from a negotiation standpoint) is necessary.

 

[fskimospy]

Except it inevitably spills over. Either you have local unrest from Muslim groups, local unrest from Jewish groups, or overt terrorism (from within or without) for whatever reason some charismatic idiot wants to give. We don't have the ability to stuff them on the moon to kill each other so some involvement (even if it's purely from a negotiation standpoint) is necessary.

I’m not sure if that’s true. We deeply involve ourselves in this conflict and so there’s spillover there but what if we didn’t?

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Y'alls ballyhooin' on the wrong thread.

 

[fskimospy]

Y'alls ballyhooin' on the wrong thread.

Not really. What else is there to say about some crazies digging a tunnel?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I’m not sure if that’s true. We deeply involve ourselves in this conflict and so there’s spillover there but what if we didn’t?

I think we're involved no matter what. We're a global society that one can travel from any city to any city in less than a day. Whether you do something or nothing you're going to piss someone off, so why not try for what lessens the suffering?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Y'alls ballyhooin' on the wrong thread.

No derailing the topic!

 

[fskimospy]

I think we're involved no matter what. We're a global society that one can travel from any city to any city in less than a day. Whether you do something or nothing you're going to piss someone off, so why not try for what lessens the suffering?

I don’t think we have any viable way to lessen the suffering, and I think our involvement hurts us both domestically and internationally.

Israel can take care of itself. Let’s let them do it. For all of Israel’s many faults Hamas is way worse. I see no reason we need to involve ourselves either way.

 

[hal2kilo]

I don’t think we have any viable way to lessen the suffering, and I think our involvement hurts us both domestically and internationally.

Israel can take care of itself. Let’s let them do it. For all of Israel’s many faults Hamas is way worse. I see no reason we need to involve ourselves either way.

Definitely, starting to impact Biden's appeal. He needs everybody.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I don’t think we have any viable way to lessen the suffering, and I think our involvement hurts us both domestically and internationally.

Israel can take care of itself. Let’s let them do it. For all of Israel’s many faults Hamas is way worse. I see no reason we need to involve ourselves either way.

By simply favoring one side though, you're guaranteeing to persist the conflict unless Israel becomes worse than their opponent. If your only options are war, peace through genocide, or peace through negotiation, why would any option other than negotiation be preferable?

 

[darkswordsman17]

Wait, are people seriously trying to argue its not genocide just because Hamas attacked Israel in October? I guess we'll just ignore all of Israel's behavior, including how they deliberately, as in straight up fucking gave money (and I think arms and other support) to Hamas because their attempt at turning the PLO into the enemy that would give them justification for their genocidal aims to reclaim all of Israel as singularly Jewish land (despite, you know, that literally never being the case in all of human fucking history), failed? Because otherwise they knew it was hard for them to justify how they would regularly roll in and murder Palestinians (often including women and children wherein their psychopath military personnel would often brag about or admit their intention is to essentially poison the well of Palestinian population - also known as, genocide) would be too blatantly obvious exactly what it has been (again, genocide). But sure, let's ignore all of that because Hamas perpetrated a terror attack a few months ago. I'm sure that totally justified Israel doing attacks before then, right?

Its not even like we need to search far for a similar situation, since we effectively did similar by arming extremists in Afghanistan, which led to 9/11. The only difference is that the distance made it so we didn't have to be near them and at the time Afghanistan didn't really have anything we wanted. Well the CIA wanted their poppy so they could push opiates, but they didn't want the land themselves so we didn't hold Afghanistan as having any value for us to want to steal the land. Otherwise we would've rolled in and colonized it like we did plenty of other places, often for corporations, be it for bananas, rubber trees, oil, etc.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Then build a wall around Gaza, and Israel and give them all the non strategic weapons they want and have at it. This shit has got to stop!

I think the UN should make them have to act out a Battle Royale style competition, and then allocate land based on the results.

 

[fskimospy]

By simply favoring one side though, you're guaranteeing to persist the conflict unless Israel becomes worse than their opponent. If your only options are war, peace through genocide, or peace through negotiation, why would any option other than negotiation be preferable?

I’m saying it’s not a problem we can solve.

 

[MrSquished]

Wait, are people seriously trying to argue its not genocide just because Hamas attacked Israel in October? I guess we'll just ignore all of Israel's behavior, including how they deliberately, as in straight up fucking gave money (and I think arms and other support) to Hamas because their attempt at turning the PLO into the enemy that would give them justification for their genocidal aims to reclaim all of Israel as singularly Jewish land (despite, you know, that literally never being the case in all of human fucking history), failed? Because otherwise they knew it was hard for them to justify how they would regularly roll in and murder Palestinians (often including women and children wherein their psychopath military personnel would often brag about or admit their intention is to essentially poison the well of Palestinian population - also known as, genocide) would be too blatantly obvious exactly what it has been (again, genocide). But sure, let's ignore all of that because Hamas perpetrated a terror attack a few months ago. I'm sure that totally justified Israel doing attacks before then, right?

Its not even like we need to search far for a similar situation, since we effectively did similar by arming extremists in Afghanistan, which led to 9/11. The only difference is that the distance made it so we didn't have to be near them and at the time Afghanistan didn't really have anything we wanted. Well the CIA wanted their poppy so they could push opiates, but they didn't want the land themselves so we didn't hold Afghanistan as having any value for us to want to steal the land. Otherwise we would've rolled in and colonized it like we did plenty of other places, often for corporations, be it for bananas, rubber trees, oil, etc.

unlike our local latte liberal who thinks Hamas is way worse, the Israeli radical zionist government has been just as bad for decades. they are two peas in a pod, just on opposite sides.

 

[Moonbeam]

I’m saying it’s not a problem we can solve.

What you are saying is that within the systemic parameters you have assumed to be the proper methodology by which such problems are to be solved, none appear to you. Why do you reach the conclusion we can't solve the problem rather than just saying you don't know the answer.

 

[fskimospy]

What you are saying is that within the systemic parameters you have assumed to be the proper methodology by which such problems are to be solved, none appear to you. Why do you reach the conclusion we can't solve the problem rather than just saying you don't know the answer.

It is always possible that some answer exists that escapes me. If you happen to have it let me know.

 

[MrSquished]

I guess I’m saying I don’t see a realistic set of circumstances where they come to an agreement. I think we should probably divest ourselves from the situation entirely.

Quite telling, as we hold a chunk of responsibility for that exact situation, but now we should just wash our hands of the misery we helped create. Israel was created post WWII when the victorious Western alliance wanted a solution to its Jewish problem - we didn't defeat Nazi Germany to save the Jews at all, and Jews were not so well liked in many Western countries. Israel was the solution to their 'nuisance' of a Jew problem along with western colonialism to create the state of Israel without giving a shit about the natives, the the US was quite complicit in all this as the largest Western power. After all nothing happened without our say so and support pretty much, certainly not the way Israel was created, and the US has always strongly been biased to the of the side of Israel, a main reason a better solution wasn't found earlier.

So your solution is, well, we helped create this monster, but now it is so bad, let's just gloss over and ignorer our culpability, just wash our hands clean and just say those groups are crazy, we did all we can, later.

You sound like a good western colonialist. I know you aren't, but in this case, you do a good impression.

 

[Moonbeam]

It is always possible that some answer exists that escapes me. If you happen to have it let me know.

My point was not that a solution you have not thought of might nevertheless less be there. My point was that by the means reflexive to you, the searchlight you turn on the world may not illuminate the area in which a solution can be seen. And if there are unconscious feelings you have that motivate you to avoid adjusting your focus of the beacon a manual for adjustment could easily be turned by your mind into something reeking of gobbledygook.

I’m guessing you did not read this.

Intuition, Mysticism, and Revelation – MORAD NAZARI

 

[pmv]

When is saying something isn't a "genocide" excusing it? The reasoning you've just employed is this: everything under creation is either a genocide or it's just A-OK. Did you really mean to imply that?

So it's a quibble over a single word? Is that really the most important concern? Haven't noticed you quibbling about the use of the same word with respect to Russia in Ukraine.