Jewish Tunnels

[GodisanAtheist]

To play devil's advocate:

-Jews/Jewishness is not seen as an underprivileged minority to the liberal left and as such they are fair game for below the belt shots. They're sort of victims of their own success here. This isn't dissimilar to anti-asian humor and stereotypes, because Asians are generally perceived to be successful and self sufficient and easily fit into the predominantly white and male power structures of American society.

That said, this board does often devolve into childish taunting, name-calling, ape-like aggression on the regular and it's a good reminder to look inward and check our own biases and recognize the insularness of this community.

 

[pmv]

Yeah, I just don't think that's what Israel is doing. I think Israel is responding to terrorist acts the same way any other democracy has. Like I mentioned ad infinitum when I was posting in that cesspool of a thread, the US has killed well over 100K Muslim Arab civilians in the name of responding to 9/11. We actually started a war that lasted 15 years based on lies and false pretenses. And tortured people at Abu Graib. And while that has been criticized, it's never been labelled a genocide. You should think about why one is being labelled genocide and the other is not.

I suspect if anyone used the same argument to excuse Russia, you'd call it "whataboutery".

 

[woolfe9998]

I suspect if anyone used the same argument to excuse Russia, you'd call it "whataboutery".

When is saying something isn't a "genocide" excusing it? The reasoning you've just employed is this: everything under creation is either a genocide or it's just A-OK. Did you really mean to imply that?

 

[woolfe9998]

To play devil's advocate:

-Jews/Jewishness is not seen as an underprivileged minority to the liberal left and as such they are fair game for below the belt shots. They're sort of victims of their own success here. This isn't dissimilar to anti-asian humor and stereotypes, because Asians are generally perceived to be successful and self sufficient and easily fit into the predominantly white and male power structures of American society.

That said, this board does often devolve into childish taunting, name-calling, ape-like aggression on the regular and it's a good reminder to look inward and check our own biases and recognize the insularness of this community.

That sounds like a rather subtle bias, until you realize that historic antisemitism is exactly that: resentment of success or perceived success of Jews. Contra to racism toward blacks, who are condemned allegedly for not making enough of themselves. But antisemitism is so laden with conspiracy theories precisely because success lends to notions of outsized influence and power. If blacks were more socio-economically successful they would suddenly be the subject of conspiracy theories because they would have traded one set of bad stereotypes for another. If unsuccessful you're lazy and stupid; if successful, you're diabolical. If you're perceived as different from the ingroup, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[thilanliyan]

Yeah, I just don't think that's what Israel is doing. I think Israel is responding to terrorist acts the same way any other democracy has. Like I mentioned ad infinitum when I was posting in that cesspool of a thread, the US has killed well over 100K Muslim Arab civilians in the name of responding to 9/11. We actually started a war that lasted 15 years based on lies and false pretenses. And tortured people at Abu Graib. And while that has been criticized, it's never been labelled a genocide. You should think about why one is being labelled genocide and the other is not.

I think maybe the US didn't consider it genocide, but other parts of the world probably did.

Regarding Gaza, Israel does have a right to respond, but they shouldn't be surprised about the attacks considering the conditions they create in Gaza. They are at least partially responsible for the extremism there. And it seems they will keep doing what they're doing, and expecting things to be different...

 

[woolfe9998]

I think maybe the US didn't consider it genocide, but other parts of the world probably did.

Regarding Gaza, Israel does have a right to respond, but they shouldn't be surprised about the attacks considering the conditions they create in Gaza. They are at least partially responsible for the extremism there. And it seems they will keep doing what they're doing, and expecting things to be different...

It doesn't matter if someone somewhere called what the US did a genocide. What matters for purposes of this discussion is that the people who never called any of that genocide are now calling this genocide, and indeed, many of these people have been calling it genocide for literally decades.

Did it occur to you that the extremism of the Israeli government is something the Palestinians are at least partially responsible for? The last leftie PM who was peace minded was Ehud Barak who offered a state, was met with silence by Arafat, was disgraced over his failure, and almost immediately thereafter the Palestinians started terrorist bombings. That was in 2000. Do you expect the voters there to elect a peace minded leftist party after that? The perception was you have to meet force with force, because attempts at peace resulted in failure and disaster.

 

[thilanliyan]

It doesn't matter if someone somewhere called what the US did a genocide. What matters for purposes of this discussion is that the people who never called any of that genocide are now calling this genocide, and indeed, many of these people have been calling it genocide for literally decades.

Did it occur to you that the extremism of the Israeli government is something the Palestinians are at least partially responsible for? The last leftie PM who was peace minded was Ehud Barak who offered a state, was met with silence by Arafat, was disgraced over his failure, and almost immediately thereafter the Palestinians started terrorist bombings. That was in 2000. Do you expect the voters there to elect a peace minded leftist party after that? The perception was you have to meet force with force, because attempts at peace resulted in failure and disaster.

That's fair, I don't know which publications for example did or didn't call it a genocide. I'll take your word that this is the case.

That's entirely possible, that the Palestinians are partially responsible for the current Israeli govt, but the power balance in that area is so one sided (towards Israel) that it is (IMO) mostly Israel's responsibility for a long term peaceful solution, regardless of what's happened previously. The conditions they are creating there are not going to lessen the extremism. If their solution is to militarize more and more, it's not going to lead to anything good in the long term.

 

[fskimospy]

It doesn't matter if someone somewhere called what the US did a genocide. What matters for purposes of this discussion is that the people who never called any of that genocide are now calling this genocide, and indeed, many of these people have been calling it genocide for literally decades.

Did it occur to you that the extremism of the Israeli government is something the Palestinians are at least partially responsible for? The last leftie PM who was peace minded was Ehud Barak who offered a state, was met with silence by Arafat, was disgraced over his failure, and almost immediately thereafter the Palestinians started terrorist bombings. That was in 2000. Do you expect the voters there to elect a peace minded leftist party after that? The perception was you have to meet force with force, because attempts at peace resulted in failure and disaster.

I think this really is one of the few cases where both sides genuinely do share significant responsibility for the sad state of affairs. After all, the guy before Barak who tried to offer a state was assassinated...by an Israeli.

Regardless though, your fundamental point is right. First, the US would be doing the exact same thing (or more!) if this happened to us and what is happening in Gaza, while terrible, is not even remotely genocide. When Hamas says 'man that attack was great and we can't wait to do it again' what is Israel supposed to do?

 

[Pens1566]

Are we still digging into this?

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Repairs? Or demolition? Kinda be a shame if the building in question might have to be torn down.

Illegal tunnel under a synagogue in NYC is 60 feet long and destabilized nearby buildings, city says​

New York building officials have issued emergency work orders to stabilize buildings around a historic Brooklyn synagogue where a secret tunnel was revealed earlier this week.

 

[Moonbeam]

I think this really is one of the few cases where both sides genuinely do share significant responsibility for the sad state of affairs. After all, the guy before Barak who tried to offer a state was assassinated...by an Israeli.

Regardless though, your fundamental point is right. First, the US would be doing the exact same thing (or more!) if this happened to us and what is happening in Gaza, while terrible, is not even remotely genocide. When Hamas says 'man that attack was great and we can't wait to do it again' what is Israel supposed to do?

It doesn't matter if someone somewhere called what the US did a genocide. What matters for purposes of this discussion is that the people who never called any of that genocide are now calling this genocide, and indeed, many of these people have been calling it genocide for literally decades.

Did it occur to you that the extremism of the Israeli government is something the Palestinians are at least partially responsible for? The last leftie PM who was peace minded was Ehud Barak who offered a state, was met with silence by Arafat, was disgraced over his failure, and almost immediately thereafter the Palestinians started terrorist bombings. That was in 2000. Do you expect the voters there to elect a peace minded leftist party after that? The perception was you have to meet force with force, because attempts at peace resulted in failure and disaster.

Using this logic of inevitability, the fact that the slaughter on both sides must continue because it is the only possible course of action for Israel to take, that the Palestinians will have no state government that can outlaw Hamas and that Israelites will assassinate any who attempt pease on their side, how does that not justify all terrorism against the state of Israel from the other side? Clearly by the justifications for Israeli actions presented in these two posts, they become perfectly reasonable to make and to apply from the anti-Israeli side. We must accept endless slaughter until the tiny population of Israel eliminates Islam from the world or visa versa. Agent Smith was right…….inevitability. No One can free him or herself from the machine. Ozymandias knows best.

 

[Moonbeam]

Repairs? Or demolition? Kinda be a shame if the building in question might have to be torn down.

Illegal tunnel under a synagogue in NYC is 60 feet long and destabilized nearby buildings, city says​

New York building officials have issued emergency work orders to stabilize buildings around a historic Brooklyn synagogue where a secret tunnel was revealed earlier this week.

Another dickhole, I guess.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Can someone please explain what’s going on with this or these tunnels and why it’s important?
Every time I try to read about it I am bombarded with racist stuff or the thread is locked & heavily edited due to antisemitic content.

Little bit is okay guys just don’t go full Hitler on this please.

 

[fskimospy]

Can someone please explain what’s going on with this or these tunnels and why it’s important?
Every time I try to read about it I am bombarded with racist stuff or the thread is locked & heavily edited due to antisemitic content.

Little bit is okay guys just don’t go full Hitler on this please.

It's basically a silly story about the ultra orthodox digging an illegal tunnel into one of their synagogues and they ended up getting in a fight with police when the cops got involved. This sort of thing happens with relative frequency in NYC because the ultra orthodox basically don't follow any laws they don't want to follow and live with impunity. They also tend to react with extreme hostility to the other residents of the city if any attempt is made to have them follow the law.

They're an evil cult but since they wield a lot of political power in the city they are allowed to be that way.

This might come across as antisemitism but it has nothing to do with them being Jewish, it has to do with them being an evil cult. Sort of how the fundamentalist Mormons operate.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

It's basically a silly story about the ultra orthodox digging an illegal tunnel into one of their synagogues and they ended up getting in a fight with police when the cops got involved. This sort of thing happens with relative frequency in NYC because the ultra orthodox basically don't follow any laws they don't want to follow and live with impunity. They also tend to react with extreme hostility to the other residents of the city if any attempt is made to have them follow the law.

They're an evil cult but since they wield a lot of political power in the city they are allowed to be that way.

This might come across as antisemitism but it has nothing to do with them being Jewish, it has to do with them being an evil cult. Sort of how the fundamentalist Mormons operate.

Nope that appropriate non Hitler use of it.

 

[Paratus]

It doesn't matter if someone somewhere called what the US did a genocide. What matters for purposes of this discussion is that the people who never called any of that genocide are now calling this genocide, and indeed, many of these people have been calling it genocide for literally decades.

Did it occur to you that the extremism of the Israeli government is something the Palestinians are at least partially responsible for? The last leftie PM who was peace minded was Ehud Barak who offered a state, was met with silence by Arafat, was disgraced over his failure, and almost immediately thereafter the Palestinians started terrorist bombings. That was in 2000. Do you expect the voters there to elect a peace minded leftist party after that? The perception was you have to meet force with force, because attempts at peace resulted in failure and disaster.

Religious conservative leadership only values civilians on either side as chips to be played to remain in power. Civilians killed on the other side are played as successfully killing the enemy so keep us in power. Civilians dying on your own side are played as an atrocity so keep us in power to avenge the atrocities.

It’s something both sides absolutely share.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Can someone please explain what’s going on with this or these tunnels and why it’s important?
Every time I try to read about it I am bombarded with racist stuff or the thread is locked & heavily edited due to antisemitic content.

Little bit is okay guys just don’t go full Hitler on this please.

See post 47.

 

[hal2kilo]

I feel like gaslighting is going on. I know what I see.

 

[Moonbeam]

Religious conservative leadership only values civilians on either side as chips to be played to remain in power. Civilians killed on the other side are played as successfully killing the enemy so keep us in power. Civilians dying on your own side are played as an atrocity so keep us in power to avenge the atrocities.

It’s something both sides absolutely share.

And all that makes it real is the belief in its inevitability. The copper top that supplies the power to operate this mechanicality is belief.

What pessimist looks into the past to count how many things thought impossible yesterday are commonplace today?

We create what we fear and to fear extermination by the other is actually the unconscious wish to die to get away from the pain. Everything we fear has already happened. We died psychically as children.

 

[Leeea]

Take any belief, religious, atheist, liberal, conservative, whatever.

Take it to the extreme, and there will be problems.


Here, we have said problems.

 

[MrSquished]

I think this really is one of the few cases where both sides genuinely do share significant responsibility for the sad state of affairs. After all, the guy before Barak who tried to offer a state was assassinated...by an Israeli.

Regardless though, your fundamental point is right. First, the US would be doing the exact same thing (or more!) if this happened to us and what is happening in Gaza, while terrible, is not even remotely genocide. When Hamas says 'man that attack was great and we can't wait to do it again' what is Israel supposed to do?

What is Israel supposed to do?

absolutely nothing justifies this reaction. how can you look in the mirror and say those words? disgusting.

this didn't happen in a vacuum anyway. israel has been guilty for decades of running an apartheid state and killing civilians. Hamas is a product of Israel, Hamas is also terrible, but they would not exist if it were not for Israeli policies. They both need to go the way of the dodo.

But nothing justifies this. Nothing.

You lack basic fundamental humanity.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

What is Israel supposed to do?

As a neutral third party perspective? Some kind of two state solution based on actual mutual respect, with leadership from both parties supporting each other, and equally punishing deviance from the intended goals among their own. Enforcement must be merciless and complete.

 

[fskimospy]

As a neutral third party perspective? Some kind of two state solution based on actual mutual respect, with leadership from both parties supporting each other, and equally punishing deviance from the intended goals among their own. Enforcement must be merciless and complete.

Now ask yourself if that position has majority support among either Israelis or Palestinians.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Now ask yourself if that position has majority support among either Israelis or Palestinians.

Doesn't matter. Law of the land, will probably require death penalty for transgressions. People will either fall in line, or overthrow the government, but them's the breaks if you want to turn over a century or three of war. You gotta break the back of that movement.

 

[hal2kilo]

Now ask yourself if that position has majority support among either Israelis or Palestinians.

Then build a wall around Gaza, and Israel and give them all the non strategic weapons they want and have at it. This shit has got to stop!