ultimatebob
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2001
- 23,381
- 1,364
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Not really, it was a typical "Linus rant". You know, like the ones he makes about Intel until they cut him another check to promote their latest processors.
- Aug 25, 2001
- 50,419
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He called the new upcoming "CMP" mining cards, "single-use GPUs". Will we see them in a dispenser in men's rooms?
ultimatebob
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2001
- 23,381
- 1,364
- 126
I'm sure that someone will find an alternate use for them eventually. Either someone will use them for data processing, or someone will find a way to use them as a graphics card with the integrated motherboard video outputs. They figured it out on the last generation mining cards, anyway.
The move isn't game friendly. Mining cards are GeForce cards that could have been and based on past history Nvidia's claims about them only using hardware that couldn't be sold as a GeForce is dubious. Mining cards never become discount used gaming cards when a mining bubble crashes so gamers lose out on getting good cards for cheap during these times.
Doubtful since Nvidia wouldn't want them to compete against their more expensive compute cards either. Since they're already locking cards down artificially to limit mining on a 3060, don't be surprised if the mining cards are further locked in ways that make them useless outside of mining.
I suppose they'd still be good at solving the same type of cryptographic problems, so if you want to generate some rainbow tables or brute force hashed passwords you might have an inexpensive way to do that.
coercitiv
Diamond Member
- Jan 24, 2014
- 4,162
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A quick wake-up call, although other forum members already warned about this:
Let this sink in - (casual) miners may be willing to pay north of $600 for the gimped 3060.
| Algorithm | Coin | 3060 Ti | 3060 stock | 3060 OC | Gross / month |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Octopus | CFX Conflux | 48.00 MH/s | 39.74 at 169W | 46.00 at 129W | $208 |
| KawPow | RVN Ravencoin | 27.00 MH/s | 20.97 at 169W | 23.25 at 125W | $184 |
| ProgPow | VEIL Veil-ProgPow | 26.00 MH/s | 20.95 at 169W | 23.42 at 127W | $148 |
| CuckooCycleCortex | CTXC Cortex | 1.60 at 148W | 1.70 at 127W | $143 | |
| CuckooCycle | AE Aeternity | 9.80 h/s | 6.38 at 161W | 6.28 at 129W | $121 |
| Ethash | ETH Ethereum | 27.23 at 105W | $115 | ||
| MTP | FIR Firo | 3.90 MH/s | 2.75 at 169W | 2.69 at 118W | $114 |
| CuckooCycle | TUBE BitTubeCash | 9.80 h/s | 6.38 at 161W | 6.28 at 129W | $102 |
Let this sink in - (casual) miners may be willing to pay north of $600 for the gimped 3060.
Conflux network hashrate is 1.3TH/s, meaning it's equivalent to ~27k 3060s. Eth hashrate is 411TH/s, equivalent to 6.9M 3060 Ti/3070s.
The idea of buying 3060s to mine other alt coins sounds fine now, but none of them have the market cap to absorb any real capacity of 3060s. You'll probably ultimately see their profitability using a 3060 level out to about what the profitability is mining Eth with a 3060.
That being said, if you're looking at a 3060 at MSRP of $330 you're looking at ballpark of $2400 pre-tax to set up a 6 card rig. Even gimped it would still be pulling in ~$500/month based on the last 7 day average before power costs. That's still very good especially given how well the 3060 bracket will hold up their used value. Miners buying 3060s in bulk will still be very financially viable even if the hashrate limit isn't fixed, so I don't expect 3060 stock to be much better than the rest of Ampere.
For the CMP cards, Nvidia could have a case for them going forward if they provide proper driver support. Gamers might not be able to buy them used, but if you can use them to run general purpose GPGPU code and accelerate rendering, do ML training, etc there could be a potential resell market that would make them more attractive to miners. Outside that, the CMP cards will need to be significantly cheaper than an equivalent GeForce card to make sense and I would be shocked if Nvidia priced them that way.
The idea of buying 3060s to mine other alt coins sounds fine now, but none of them have the market cap to absorb any real capacity of 3060s. You'll probably ultimately see their profitability using a 3060 level out to about what the profitability is mining Eth with a 3060.
That being said, if you're looking at a 3060 at MSRP of $330 you're looking at ballpark of $2400 pre-tax to set up a 6 card rig. Even gimped it would still be pulling in ~$500/month based on the last 7 day average before power costs. That's still very good especially given how well the 3060 bracket will hold up their used value. Miners buying 3060s in bulk will still be very financially viable even if the hashrate limit isn't fixed, so I don't expect 3060 stock to be much better than the rest of Ampere.
For the CMP cards, Nvidia could have a case for them going forward if they provide proper driver support. Gamers might not be able to buy them used, but if you can use them to run general purpose GPGPU code and accelerate rendering, do ML training, etc there could be a potential resell market that would make them more attractive to miners. Outside that, the CMP cards will need to be significantly cheaper than an equivalent GeForce card to make sense and I would be shocked if Nvidia priced them that way.
That i doubt but I think nVidia is counting on miners buying the CMP cards anyway.
Your friends and anecdotes are a drop in the ocean, we are talking about miners that buy hundreds of cards and set farmers on an industrial scale in different countries across the globe. The gaming/prosumer GPU market as a whole is not being served. AMD had been bitten in the behind years ago when the ex mining cards returned post crash to flood the market and destroy their new SKU sales. Nvidia may sell now but this very JHH intention we discuss in this thread,is undisputed proof he is extremely nervous about this situation. True miners and not those that have a card or two and mine on the side, are a predatory cohort that behaves nothing like the consumer ones because they are not consumers. They threaten the very fabric of the PC market.
- Aug 25, 2001
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- 6,025
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Sounds a lot like ... Backblaze! They bought external HDDs en-mass and "shucked" them, and when the HDD companies refused to sell them any more in bulk (so I read), they paid individual purchasers a "bounty" to buy them and ship them to Backblaze.
Yet, in most online discussions, Backblaze is seen as the challenger, and the old, stodgy HDD mfgs as the "bad guys". I wonder why mining is different?
ultimatebob
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2001
- 23,381
- 1,364
- 126
Yeah, we're at the point now where people are buying cheap Dell XPS desktop systems for around $1,500 with an upgraded GeForce 3070 in them, just because they want the 3070 for mining.
I bet that you can get a Dell XPS Desktop with just onboard graphics on it for cheap at the moment
I bet that you can get a Dell XPS Desktop with just onboard graphics on it for cheap at the moment
Well if the people buying them for the GPUs are just discarding the rest of the kit in the alley, then you can get it really cheap. Really cheap.I bet that you can get a Dell XPS Desktop with just onboard graphics on it for cheap at the moment
This is perhaps the best analogy EVER. Backblaze does the same, they purchase consumer HDs and use it for something that the manufacturer would love to sell you Server HDs at a premium price. They are not happy about someone getting away not paying the premium.
Know who also did the same? Google. Server farms with mostly-consumer Hardware. Just watch that article date!
Know who else did the same? Half of the most successful companies all throughout history. Turns out most people really only care about the most inexpensive solution to their problem and companies that fail to deliver on that get swallowed up by companies that do.
I doubt there are next to any CMP cards in existence and there probably never will be. It's just marketing so that NVIDIA can appease gamers and not poison the well. Even if they did exist, like you said, they won't be priced appropriately so they wouldn't sell well.
NVIDIA knows that AMD is serious competition now, and they can't afford to turn gamers against them. AMD doesn't have to do a thing because RDNA2 cards are priced high enough, and have such low production rates they don't really factor into in the mining discussion.
Haven't heard of them but this practice sounds like hoarding/scalping and not mining. And I have no idea why would annyone cheer for scalpers. Miners aren't trying to artificially choke the supply to profit from selling their cards. They absorb everything they can get their hands to create coin. Totally different situation.
Just wait a year and then the market will be flooded with dirt cheap 3000 series GPUs. Patient gamers on a budget made out like bandits in late 2018-2020. This is the worst it's been, worse than 2017, but that's probably because supply is so constrained. It'll even out in time. TSMC and Samsung will expand their fab capacity, and there won't be another mining boom like this again, so in the long run it's a non-issue. Again, if NVIDIA and AIBs really cared about gamers they'd do a simple que system. At the end of the day, blame the manufactures and retailers, not miners. I'm honestly not sure in this day and age why distribution channels are what they are with GPUs, AIBs should just go direct to consumer selling and squash this nonsense altogether.
The great cryptocurrency crash of 2018 was triggered by the Chinese banning exchanges in China.
That seems to indicate Ethereum may not crash by itself, but will take a push from an outside action. Perhaps proof of stake change over will crash mining, I sure hope it will. However I think it is a roll of the dice to anticipate another massive crash on that scale.
Proof of stake is supposedly 18-24 months out. We'll see. Once it goes live, yes, GPU mining is essentially dead for anyone who doesn't have dirty cheap electricity. With difficulty spiking thanks to the new price boom and powerful ASICs coming online, if ETH crashes down below $1,000 and EIP-1559 in it's currently proposed form is implemented ETH will only be profitable for another year for most miners. Yes, miners leaving the network will help, but ASICs will keep coming online to replace them. Just like with BTC, GPU mining will be dead sooner than later.
3000 series GPUs will be profitable longer, because you can get some really great efficiency out of them if you're willing to sacrifice a little hash rate, but even they aren't anywhere near as efficient as the ASICs currently being used by pools like F2Pool.
ultimatebob
Lifer
- Jul 1, 2001
- 23,381
- 1,364
- 126
Bah... they said that Proof Of Stake was 18 months out three years ago. The Ethereum development team kinda sucks.
Heh, right? I think it's more that they are perfectionists and as new cryptography and ideas are brought forward they're like a dog chasing cars. I think the team is fantastic, but WAY too slow to move. We'll see. I'll keep mining until proof of stake hits, then it's just staking from there on out for me, I don't plan on mining anything else unless the landscape changes drastically.
I think a lot of people will jump over to zhash, Monero, Beam, and others like those. With their emphases on enabling criminality it they will likely be in demand for some time to come.
Looking at profitability, I'm honestly surprised any of them are still alive. Even during this crypto bull run they are essentially not profitable. I mean, even with free electricity, covering hardware costs is barely doable.
I can absolutely see privacy coins having demand at some point, but for now it appears that demand is currently extremely low. Unless something changes, I'm not interested in mining outside of utilizing GPUs I already have for myself and my kids.
Panino Manino
Senior member
- Jan 28, 2017
- 350
- 400
- 136
This is an unfair thing to say.
They are a tech channel, they review tech things. Of course they'll review Intel's products no matter what they do, no checks needed.
I'm a fan of LTT (more so the non-Linus videos) but you have to admit there's pretty severe whiplash in the tone of their content sometimes.
Watch the "3090 8k gaming!!" video and compare it to the recent "Nvidia Ain't Your Friend" video. Obviously the 8k gaming video was sponsored by nvidia, and clearly labeled as such, but if you censored "nvidia" and any specific product names from those videos I don't think anyone would assume they were focused on the same company. I assume the harsher tone lately is partly to try to reclaim credibility lost to all the shilling. If Linus ever has to make a "LG sucks" video he'll be choking back tears.
Also LTT has an ongoing Intel sponsored series where they're literally giving staff members a $5000 check to overhaul their home computer setup (featuring of course an intel CPU). I wouldn't accuse them of conscious bias in subsequent CPU reviews but I certainly don't trust their word when it comes to any purchasing decisions that involve products that have had sponsored videos.
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