Israel: Commandos seize huge Iranian arms shipment

[kylebisme]

Many also expected to return as conquerors and have their choice of the land that the Jews originally were on.

Rather, they had their own land until militant Zionists ethnically cleansed them from it, and hope to return to it by some means or another.

It was expected that the Arabs armies would push the Jews into the sea and all of Palestine would belong to the Arabs.

That was the vengeful idea of some, in response to militant Zionists driving Palestinians into the sea.

And now the Palestinians expect to be rewarded for siding with the losing team?

Palestinians, not being Jewish, were never invited to the Zionist "team", because it is filled with fucking bigots.

Note that in the Wiki reference it is acknowledged upfront that there is disagreement as to what was said and meant by historians themselves.

I noticed the Wiki article glazed over the facts to make it seem like a matter of reasonable opinion either way, so I linked to a book which goes into far more detail of the facts to demonstrate how utterly absurd the "invited to leave" claims are.

 

[EagleKeeper]

This situation that the Palestinians put themselves into can be argued outside of this thread. To continue this line would amount to a thread hijacking.

This is typical of most Israel/Arab threads. The initial situation is always rolled back into the root causes of the conflict, rather than the point of the OP

 

[irishScott]

Gotta love the fair weather UN fans here.

When Israel does something, the list of violated UN resolutions fills up the thread. When Iran or one of Isreal's adversaries does something violent, these resolutions suddenly lose all meaning to their former advocates.

Personally I don't think anyone here is in any position to support or deny the truthfulness of Israel's claim on the weapons' origin, but the bottom line is Israel intercepted illegal weapons headed for Hezbollah, if nowhere else. Good for them.

 

[Lemon law]

This situation that the Palestinians put themselves into can be argued outside of this thread. To continue this line would amount to a thread hijacking.

This is typical of most Israel/Arab threads. The initial situation is always rolled back into the root causes of the conflict, rather than the point of the OP

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we assume the Israelis are nothing but the good guys and the Palestinians are nothing but that bad guys, we can look at it from the standpoint of today and say the Palestinians are still the bad guys.

If we instead recognize that the Palestinians also have legitimate grievances as do Israelis, and add in the fact that both sides, even if we are simplistic enough to think there are only two sides, have made many mistakes along the way, then and only then can we progress.

And realize that these mid-east problems simply will not go away until some justice is restored. And therefore we do have to go back to 1948 to have an any understanding.

And then also realize that a one sided victory by either side will involve a bloodbath that needs to be avoided, with Israel more likely to be on the receiving end. We could go back to the crusades, where on two occasions the weight of European numbers held hegemony, but less than 120 years later or less, it was the Arabs with the shorter supply line who displaced them. With Israel having a hegemony of only half that, its still likely the weight of Arab numbers will prevail in the end.

And as the Israeli Arab squabble now moving into its sixty second year with no progress towards a settlement, do we want business as usual or will the world start to demand a fair settlement as both sides share?

Or will we wait until the most radical anti Israeli terrorists start using chemical and biological weapons, and with a good chance of making Israel uninhabitable by either side for generations to come?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Palestinians are largely descended from the Semitic peoples who lived in the region as far back as the historical record goes, Jews included.


First, it seems you lack comprehension of the meaning of the term "myth":


Put simply, while the archaeological evidence like the carving you mention proves a history of Jewish population in region, the evidence comes far short of proving your map.


You can find what an actual academic investigation into the "invitated to leave" myth reveals here.


That is just more biblical myth, which the many archaeologists who have attempted to substantiate it have utterly failed to do, as explained here.


Sure, and the Deep South has never been a nation or a state. Does that mean that it isn't the homeland of Southerners and it is rightly mine and my my brother of Cherokee ancestry to take by force?


Rather, you are arguing a strawman. No one here is arguing over the existence of Israel itself, but rather pointing out the sheer illegitimacy of Israels ongoing conquest of what little is left of Palestine.


No, this discussion is like ones arguing over 1939 Germany's assumed right to annex Poland. Would you have been taking the side of the conquers on that one too?

OK so at one point your saying anything biblical about the Jews are myths

BUT

you say Palestinians ascendants lived there with the jews. you are too biased to even talk with. go to a doctor to get those screws fixed. oh and make sure he isnt jewish.

 

[SamurAchzar]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we assume the Israelis are nothing but the good guys and the Palestinians are nothing but that bad guys, we can look at it from the standpoint of today and say the Palestinians are still the bad guys.

If we instead recognize that the Palestinians also have legitimate grievances as do Israelis, and add in the fact that both sides, even if we are simplistic enough to think there are only two sides, have made many mistakes along the way, then and only then can we progress.

And realize that these mid-east problems simply will not go away until some justice is restored. And therefore we do have to go back to 1948 to have an any understanding.

And then also realize that a one sided victory by either side will involve a bloodbath that needs to be avoided, with Israel more likely to be on the receiving end. We could go back to the crusades, where on two occasions the weight of European numbers held hegemony, but less than 120 years later or less, it was the Arabs with the shorter supply line who displaced them. With Israel having a hegemony of only half that, its still likely the weight of Arab numbers will prevail in the end.

And as the Israeli Arab squabble now moving into its sixty second year with no progress towards a settlement, do we want business as usual or will the world start to demand a fair settlement as both sides share?

Or will we wait until the most radical anti Israeli terrorists start using chemical and biological weapons, and with a good chance of making Israel uninhabitable by either side for generations to come?

I think that you're basically right on this. Israel must solve this situation. The question is whether the Palestinians can assume control of their own country, without it turning into a terrorist state, or something like Lebanon in which a shadow government (Hizbullah) calls the shots and terrorizes Israel.
Israel has done alot to end this conflict, not because the Israelis are angels, but because it has alot to gain by putting an end to this. But there is vacum on the Palestinian side today. Do you think Hamas can step down from their position as a terrorist organization and begin acting like a government?

Forget what Israel did for a moment, whether right or wrong; The FACTS are that there IS an overwhelming majority in the Israeli public for ending this conflict once and for all, but I just don't see how this is possible with the current Palestinian leadership. Hamas is not that much removed from Taliban, and you sure wouldn't want them to be your neighbours.
Yes this is a dead end situation at present, but Israel can sustain it. It's not good, but it's better than the alternative.

 

[werepossum]

The Palestinians democratically voted in a terrorist organization; that in itself should end all sympathy for them. Besides, Israel gave us the Pentium Pro and Core 2 Duo (Intel Haifa studio), not to mention several nice pieces of military hardware; what have the Palestinians ever given us? Oh, yeah - Major Nidal Malik Hasan.

 

[Ozoned]

This situation that the Palestinians put themselves into can be argued outside of this thread. To continue this line would amount to a thread hijacking.

This is typical of most Israel/Arab threads. The initial situation is always rolled back into the root causes of the conflict, rather than the point of the OP

The subject matter of this thread, and what it has rolled back into, should really demonstrate what the true conflict is. There isn't an Israeli/Palestinian conflict. There is only an Israel/Arab conflict. The Palestinians are the Arabs Pawns. What the Op shows, is that the Persians have an interest in exploiting them also. Instability in that area of the world buys them time. Their Destroy Israel Rhetoric likely fell from the same tree.

 

[Lemon law]

I can understand and partially endorse the SamurAchur position, of "I think that you're basically right on this. Israel must solve this situation. The question is whether the Palestinians can assume control of their own country, without it turning into a terrorist state, or something like Lebanon in which a shadow government (Hizbullah) calls the shots and terrorizes Israel.
Israel has done alot to end this conflict, not because the Israelis are angels, but because it has alot to gain by putting an end to this. But there is vacum on the Palestinian side today. Do you think Hamas can step down from their position as a terrorist organization and begin acting like a government?

Forget what Israel did for a moment, whether right or wrong; The FACTS are that there IS an overwhelming majority in the Israeli public for ending this conflict once and for all, but I just don't see how this is possible with the current Palestinian leadership. Hamas is not that much removed from Taliban, and you sure wouldn't want them to be your neighbours.
Yes this is a dead end situation at present, but Israel can sustain it. It's not good, but it's better than the alternative."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I do have my quibbles, while I agree that most Israelis would like to see the problem settled, its the wacki Israeli settlers who drive the Israeli politics. And having Netanyuhu as Israeli PM is a deal killer right there.

The other delusions is that a Palestinian State will automatically passivity anti Israeli terrorists or extremists in Israel. At best, it will only start to wind the tensions down.
But the time is right, Arab parties signaled their readiness to accept the existence od the State of Israel in the recent Annapolis peace conference, and we have to largely blame the state Of Israel for refusing to make any concessions that could lead anywhere.

The last and most critical delusion is that Israel by itself can lead the peace process. Its not only failed to collectively do so in the past, it risks the fact that very radical extremists anti-Israeli terrorist will acquire the technology to make Israel really hurt with the use of Chemical, biological, and radiological weapons.

The facts are that the infanta has progressed from rocks, bottles, and suicide bombers
and now to rocket techonolgy still ignores the fact that Israel is still able to dish it out to the weaker side without hurting in any real way. Sooner or later that will change and its apparent to anyone who reads the tea leaves.

What will happen when those chemical, biological, and radiological weapons come.

Will that be what its takes to get Israeli to finally come to the peace table?

Sadly, I have to conclude its what its going to take. How many years left until we have exactly that scenario is the real question.

 

[Ozoned]

The Palestinians democratically voted in a terrorist organization; that in itself should end all sympathy for them. Besides, Israel gave us the Pentium Pro and Core 2 Duo (Intel Haifa studio), not to mention several nice pieces of military hardware; what have the Palestinians ever given us? Oh, yeah - Major Nidal Malik Hasan.

From everything I have heard and read, I would come to the conclusion that the Good Major was self taught, and a very independent person. He may be able to justify in his mind that his religion allows him to do what he did, he may try to blame it on his up-bringing, or his current social surroundings, but none of that mitigates the fact that he is defective.

 

[Ozoned]

I can understand and partially endorse the SamurAchur position, of "I think that you're basically right on this. Israel must solve this situation. The question is whether the Palestinians can assume control of their own country, without it turning into a terrorist state, or something like Lebanon in which a shadow government (Hizbullah) calls the shots and terrorizes Israel.
Israel has done alot to end this conflict, not because the Israelis are angels, but because it has alot to gain by putting an end to this. But there is vacum on the Palestinian side today. Do you think Hamas can step down from their position as a terrorist organization and begin acting like a government?

Forget what Israel did for a moment, whether right or wrong; The FACTS are that there IS an overwhelming majority in the Israeli public for ending this conflict once and for all, but I just don't see how this is possible with the current Palestinian leadership. Hamas is not that much removed from Taliban, and you sure wouldn't want them to be your neighbours.
Yes this is a dead end situation at present, but Israel can sustain it. It's not good, but it's better than the alternative."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I do have my quibbles, while I agree that most Israelis would like to see the problem settled, its the wacki Israeli settlers who drive the Israeli politics. And having Netanyuhu as Israeli PM is a deal killer right there.

The other delusions is that a Palestinian State will automatically passivity anti Israeli terrorists or extremists in Israel. At best, it will only start to wind the tensions down.
But the time is right, Arab parties signaled their readiness to accept the existence od the State of Israel in the recent Annapolis peace conference, and we have to largely blame the state Of Israel for refusing to make any concessions that could lead anywhere.

The last and most critical delusion is that Israel by itself can lead the peace process. Its not only failed to collectively do so in the past, it risks the fact that very radical extremists anti-Israeli terrorist will acquire the technology to make Israel really hurt with the use of Chemical, biological, and radiological weapons.

The facts are that the infanta has progressed from rocks, bottles, and suicide bombers
and now to rocket techonolgy still ignores the fact that Israel is still able to dish it out to the weaker side without hurting in any real way. Sooner or later that will change and its apparent to anyone who reads the tea leaves.

What will happen when those chemical, biological, and radiological weapons come.

Will that be what its takes to get Israeli to finally come to the peace table?

Sadly, I have to conclude its what its going to take. How many years left until we have exactly that scenario is the real question.

Israel, I think, would like the New Palestinian State to be located elsewhere. That would solve all of the current problems, and shine a light on the true conflict.

Just think what it would be like if the monarchy in Jordan was replaced with a democratically elected government that could, and would absorb the residents of the west bank.

 

[Lemon law]

Yes yes, Ozoned, let is prey for the day the Palestinian people simply grow gills and swim away.

Ain't gonna happen Ozoned, so what is your point?

Meanwhile we have a problem your wishful thinking fails to address.

 

[werepossum]

Israel, I think, would like the New Palestinian State to be located elsewhere. That would solve all of the current problems, and shine a light on the true conflict.

Just think what it would be like if the monarchy in Jordan was replaced with a democratically elected government that could, and would absorb the residents of the west bank.

Thou forgeteth that Jordan did take in the Palestinians, and kicked the PLO out when they tried to take over the country and for repeated attacks on the Israelis, drawing retaliation attacks into Jordan. Why would you imagine they would now behave more kindly to a democratic government, unless of course it was Hamas or Hizbullah? Jordan has (I think) a couple million Palestinians with Jordanian citizenship; I don't think it wants anymore.

Personally I would love it if Palestinians decided to accept Jordan and Israel as the intended Muslim and Jewish states, I just don't see it happening. I don't see the Palestinians who elected Hamas doing that, and I don't see Jordan taking them. Maybe if the hatred dies down some time in the future, but not anytime soon.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Extremist right wingers (Settlers) are a MINORITY in Israeli politics. The entire country went up against them in the Gaza disengagement, with a well publicized clash. The Israeli government did not hesitate using military force to evacuate the settlers out of Gaza strip.
In that period, the Israeli public opinion was overwhelmingly supportive of the concept of unilateral disengagement - "we're here and they're over there". However the Gilad Shalit affair, dozens of rockets fired daily and the overall Hamas aggression meant that move is now considered to be a massive failure. Only the Palestinians can do something as self destructive as proving Israel stupid when it unilaterally gives up territory without asking for anything in return.

That just means the public support for dealing with the Palestinian is at an all time low. The public support of Netanyahu reflects this sentiment, although he's far from hawkish as the world likes to portray.

Can anyone explain to me why on earth didn't the Hamas government use the Israeli disengagement as a basis for talks with Israel?

Could it possibly be that the Hamas goals have less to do with forming Palestine and more to do with the destruction of Israel? (it's rhetorical for those who didn't get it; they claim so ourselves). I think there's only one successful way of dealing with Hamas, as exemplified during Cast Lead.

Lemon Law, I wouldn't be worried about non conventional terrorism used against Israel. At present, no sane country will support this activity (even by proxy), as they know what would be the Israeli reaction. The Israeli security forces have a pretty good grasp of whats going on (the only reason we haven't heard of exploding buses in Israel for years - don't think Hamas isn't trying). It's much more likely such terrorism will happen in the relatively vulnerable Europe by the hands of Al Qaeda and the likes.

 

[kylebisme]

This situation that the Palestinians put themselves into can be argued outside of this thread. To continue this line would amount to a thread hijacking.

This is typical of most Israel/Arab threads. The initial situation is always rolled back into the root causes of the conflict, rather than the point of the OP

Rather, you and your fellow bigots keep rolling back on delusional claims to slam Palestinians with all the blame, like a rapist claiming his victom was asking for it. Then you turn your tail and run away every time I call you on your bullshit, only to come back and spew the same nonsense in the next thread.

OK so at one point your saying anything biblical about the Jews are myths[/qoute]
No, that isn't even close to anything I'd ever say. I simply pointed out how some particular biblical stories are contradicted by the historical record, but I suppose that is just too much for your to wrap your head around.

you say Palestinians ascendants lived there with the jews.

I said:

Palestinians are largely descended from the Semitic peoples who lived in the region as far back as the historical record goes, Jews included.

As explained here:

According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Muslim Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)...

But again, since they aren't "Jewish" now, you fucking bigoted Zionists treat them like cattle.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Rather, you and your fellow bigots keep rolling back on delusional claims to slam Palestinians with all the blame, like a rapist claiming his victom was asking for it. Then you turn your tail and run away every time I call you on your bullshit, only to come back and spew the same nonsense in the next thread.

OK so at one point your saying anything biblical about the Jews are myths[/qoute]
No, that isn't even close to anything I'd ever say. I simply pointed out how some particular biblical stories are contradicted by the historical record, but I suppose that is just too much for your to wrap your head around.


I said:



As explained here:


But again, since they aren't "Jewish" now, you fucking bigoted Zionists treat them like cattle.

I have to admire your attempts to describe a complicated situation with a rather limited vocabulary. As a self proclaimed liberator from them evil bigot Zionists, you're doing a great job. Keep it up. I only wish you and your family could experience living a life of prosperity under Hamas/Taliban/Hizballah/Iranian rule, that would sure teach you a lesson about bigotry.

 

[kylebisme]

Samur, unable to address the facts I presented, skips part one of the "how to make the case for Israel and win" guidelines and goes straight for a combo of two and three:

1. We rock
2. They suck
3. You suck
4. Everything sucks

Anyway, if anyone here wants to see what an unbridled Zionist bigot says, check out this senior Israeli Arab affairs specialist, he even looks quite a bit like Hitler aside from the lighter hair and wider mustache.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Samur, unable to address the facts I presented, skips part one of the "how to make the case for Israel and win" guidelines and goes straight for a combo of two and three:


Anyway, if anyone here wants to see what an unbridled Zionist bigot says, check out this senior Israeli Arab affairs specialist, he even looks quite a bit like Hitler aside from the lighter hair and wider mustache.

I'm not sure to which ethnic/political group do you belong, but I'm rather sure I could dig up at least one extremist, drag him to center stage and present him as your representative.
I can't even criticize your point as, to the best of my understanding, you have none.
What you think is an expression of your intellect is simply masturbation. Did your cool liberal friends tell you there is oppression in Palestine?

 

[Lemon law]

Sammy Sammy Sammy, its rather difficult to make the case that Israel is collectively rational when they collectively elect a turd like Netanyuhu.

After that its no problem to find incredible turds on all sides, the problem is the voices of any moderation on all sides are now driven out of the political process, leaving only respective turds on all sides driving the agenda.

The other point to make is that we should never confuse the pro Israeli US press for international support of Israel, the larger international community will not cry foul if Israel gets taken down. The international community may prefer a peaceful solution, but they are more invested in a final peace in the mid east because its good for business. And continual conflict is not good for business.

Tell me again why the international community should or would support a turd like Netanyuhu? Its a little more complex for the Palestinian side, they can choose a moderate like Abbas, and maybe not support Hamas, but they also know their grievances will not go away, which still defaults to bad for business failing any progress in a peace process.

 

[kylebisme]

I'm not sure to which ethnic/political group do you belong, but I'm rather sure I could dig up at least one extremist, drag him to center stage and present him as your representative.

I don't cling to any ethnic/political group, because I'm not a bigot. Furthermore, I didn't drag him to center stage, the Israeli government appointed that goon to be a senior Israeli affairs specialist to the people he is so flagrantly bigoted against. But he is far from the only example, another notable one in recent news being deranged rabbis who endorse murdering non-Jewish babies:

Just weeks after the arrest of alleged Jewish terrorist, Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi on Monday released a book giving Jews permission to kill Gentiles who threaten Israel.

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed if they pose a threat to the nation.

Shapiro based the majority of his teachings on passages quoted from the Bible, to which he adds his opinions and beliefs.

"It is permissable to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote, adding: "If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments - because we care about the commandments - there is nothing wrong with the murder."

Several prominent rabbis, including Rabbi Yithak Ginzburg and Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, have recommended the book to their students and followers.

Granted, I suppose they have to come up with some twisted interpretation of Tanakh to justify the 300 children and hundreds more civilians slaughtered in the Gaza massacre.

Did your cool liberal friends tell you there is oppression in Palestine?

I don't hang out with partisan twits. Did your mommy teach you to treat non-Jews like cattle?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamurAchzar
I'm not sure to which ethnic/political group do you belong, but I'm rather sure I could dig up at least one extremist, drag him to center stage and present him as your representative.

I don't cling to any ethnic/political group, because I'm not a bigot. Furthermore, I didn't drag him to center stage, the Israeli government appointed that goon to be a senior Israeli affairs specialist to the people he is so flagrantly bigoted against. But he is far from the only example, another notable one in recent news being deranged rabbis who endorse murdering non-Jewish babies:

Quote:
Just weeks after the arrest of alleged Jewish terrorist, Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi on Monday released a book giving Jews permission to kill Gentiles who threaten Israel.

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed if they pose a threat to the nation.

Shapiro based the majority of his teachings on passages quoted from the Bible, to which he adds his opinions and beliefs.

"It is permissable to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote, adding: "If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments - because we care about the commandments - there is nothing wrong with the murder."

Several prominent rabbis, including Rabbi Yithak Ginzburg and Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, have recommended the book to their students and followers.

Granted, I suppose they have to come up with some twisted interpretation of Tanakh to justify the 300 children and hundreds more civilians slaughtered in the Gaza massacre.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SamurAchzar
Did your cool liberal friends tell you there is oppression in Palestine?

I don't hang out with partisan twits. Did your mommy teach you to treat non-Jews like cattle?

Same arguments as always-- no substance just a lot of bull crap coming from the guy who started the WTC7 thread..pathetic!!

 

[Red Irish]

Did your cool liberal friends tell you there is oppression in Palestine?

Actually he probably just turned on a TV at some stage during the last Israeli incursion into Gaza, remember that?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Actually he probably just tutned on a TV at some stage during the last Israeli incursion into Gaza, remember that?

Well he probably tuned into the wrong channel, as the Israeli incursion into Gaza was the most justified military act I can think of in recent years. Do you have a problem with the decision to go into Gaza, or the way it was carried out? While we can debate the latter, the former is pretty clear to me. Lets recount the events:

1. Israeli public grows tired of negotiating with the Palestinians, as it leads nowhere

2. Sharon announces his plan for unilateral disengagement. The government breaks down following this, leading Sharon to go to new overall elections

3. Sharon splits from Likud and starts Kadima, which at that point only sold the idea of unilateral disengagement as means to create barriers between the Israelis and the Palestinians, hopefully yielding better lives for the Israeli and the control the Palestinians want

4. Kadima is elected by a big margin, showing the Israeli public DOES NOT want Israel to control the Palestinians

5. Israel sends military to do forceful ethnic cleansing of Jews in Gaza strip, leaving not one settler in place

Fast forward a month or two -

6. Hamas uses the new territory to fire mortars and rockets from closer range into Israel.

It has taken Israel good few years to get its shit together and finally, after daily terror for million Israelis, pull off the incursion.

I can't see any problem with the events above. I honestly don't see a problem with the way it was done either. Nor does this guy: http://blog.unwatch.org/?p=488

 

[nick1985]

I'll take a container full of that 7.62x54r off their hands if they throw in shipping.

I'd take a container of 7.62x39, I'll even pay for shipping

 

[Lemon law]

Sammy notes, "5. Israel sends military to do forceful ethnic cleansing of Jews in Gaza strip, leaving not one settler in place"

So why does Israel refuse to do the same in the West Bank? For that matter, Israel even refuses to agree to a settlement freeze for the West Bank, despite almost universal world opposition to any more Israeli settlements in the West Bank.