Israel: Commandos seize huge Iranian arms shipment

[Red Irish]

Well he probably tuned into the wrong channel, as the Israeli incursion into Gaza was the most justified military act I can think of in recent years. Do you have a problem with the decision to go into Gaza, or the way it was carried out?

I have a problem with the 300 children killed by Israeli troops. I accept that Hamas and other Palestinian groups are by no means free from blame; however, despite what you say, Israel is not the "good guy" in this picture: they launched shells into densely populated urban areas. You can describe this as "justified military act" as much as you want, but I don't think that history will record it as such, nor do I feel that Israel should escape responsibility for this massacre.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Sammy notes, "5. Israel sends military to do forceful ethnic cleansing of Jews in Gaza strip, leaving not one settler in place"

So why does Israel refuse to do the same in the West Bank? For that matter, Israel even refuses to agree to a settlement freeze for the West Bank, despite almost universal world opposition to any more Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

How can the Israeli public opinion favor this after the results of the disengagement from Gaza? I think that if the Gaza act was successful in bringing peace to the south of Israel, the West Bank have long been Palestinian by now.

 

[Red Irish]

How can the Israeli public opinion favor this after the results of the disengagement from Gaza? I think that if the Gaza act was successful in bringing peace to the south of Israel, the West Bank have long been Palestinian by now.

Perhaps it shouldn't be left to Israeli public opinion.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I have a problem with the 300 children killed by Israeli troops. I accept that Hamas and other Palestinian groups are by no means free from blame; however, despite what you say, Israel is not the "good guy" in this picture: they launched shells into densely populated urban areas. You can describe this as "justified military act" as much as you want, but I don't think that history will record it as such, nor do I feel that Israel should escape responsibility for this massacre.

Israel was forced to battle in the most densely populated area in the world. Don't you think Hamas aimed for this result when they used the very same neighborhoods to fire on Israel in the first place? Funny thing you can't even claim Hamas is rogue like back in the days of the PLO control of Gaza - they ARE the government.
How can you conduct a war in such place without harming civilians, even when using the most precise munitions and best tactical intelligence?

Again the Palestinians are deprived of responsibility for their acts. The rocket and mortar fire from Gaza went on from years, why hasn't the UN stepped up back then - not to save the lives of Jews but for making sure the Palestinian children won't be the victims of the situation?
There is a limit to the amount of risk Israel should put its soldiers in just to prevent civilians causalities on the other side.

 

[Red Irish]

Israel was forced to battle in the most densely populated area in the world. Don't you think Hamas aimed for this result when they used the very same neighborhoods to fire on Israel in the first place? Funny thing you can't even claim Hamas is rogue like back in the days of the PLO control of Gaza - they ARE the government.
How can you conduct a war in such place without harming civilians, even when using the most precise munitions and best tactical intelligence?

Again the Palestinians are deprived of responsibility for their acts. The rocket and mortar fire from Gaza went on from years, why hasn't the UN stepped up back then - not to save the lives of Jews but for making sure the Palestinian children won't be the victims of the situation?
There is a limit to the amount of risk Israel should put its soldiers in just to prevent civilians causalities on the other side.

I made no attempts to remove responsibility from Hamas, as I already stated above, but Israel pulled the trigger: you feel that it was justified in doing so, I don't, and we clearly won't convince one another that are respective positions are wrong. You use euphemisms such as "military act" or "war" to describe a situation that is neither: launching shells into civilian areas and killing 300 children and many other innocent people is not war, has no justification and deserves nothing but our sternest condemnation. By seeking to provide justification, you prove youself no better than those who launch rockets and mortars into Israel.

 

[Lemon law]

While I basically agree with Red Irish, we need to add the fact that Israel used White Prosperous shells in populated areas of Gaza, a clear war crime, and likely soon have to face the UN to address those charges.

The Goldstone report is only one of many that make the same conclusion, nor can the use of white phosperous be viewed a single isolated instances.

 

[kylebisme]

Sharon splits from Likud and starts Kadima, which at that point only sold the idea of unilateral disengagement as means to create barriers between the Israelis and the Palestinians, hopefully yielding better lives for the Israeli and the control the Palestinians want]

The Gaza pullout was just part of The Great Middle East Peace Process Scam:

In an interview in Ha’aretz in 2004, Dov Weissglas, chef de cabinet to the then prime minister, Ariel Sharon, described the strategic goal of Sharon’s diplomacy as being to secure the support of the White House and Congress for Israeli measures that would place the peace process and Palestinian statehood in ‘formaldehyde’. It is a fiendishly appropriate metaphor: formaldehyde uniquely prevents the deterioration of dead bodies, and sometimes creates the illusion that they are still alive. Weissglas explains that the purpose of Sharon’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, and the dismantling of several isolated settlements in the West Bank, was to gain US acceptance of Israel’s unilateralism, not to set a precedent for an eventual withdrawal from the West Bank. The limited withdrawals were intended to provide Israel with the political room to deepen and widen its presence in the West Bank, and that is what they achieved.

My only question is; it that you are too ignorant to have known this yourself, or just too dishonest to say so?

 

[Freshgeardude]

While I basically agree with Red Irish, we need to add the fact that Israel used White Prosperous shells in populated areas of Gaza, a clear war crime, and likely soon have to face the UN to address those charges.

The Goldstone report is only one of many that make the same conclusion, nor can the use of white phosperous be viewed a single isolated instances.

They used it to make a smoke shield to mask their locations. they did nothing illegal with it. they used it as close to properly as possible in such war zone. that isnt to say some people could have been burned. I understand it happened, but they did not intentionally launch white phosphorus anything aiming at citizens, with the intention to kill or burn them

 

[kylebisme]

Israel used white phosphorous as firebombs in densely populated civilian areas, as Human Rights Watch documented on video.

 

[EagleKeeper]

...

What will happen when those chemical, biological, and radiological weapons come.

Will that be what its takes to get Israeli to finally come to the peace table?

Should such weapons come into the hands of those that desire to destroy Israel and are used against Israel; I would expect that the IDF will take off the kid gloves and solve the issue, regardless of world opinion.

The perps and sponsors will be held accountable.

Israel stood back and took it during Gulf War I at the request of the world. They are not going to take it a second time to allow a feel good situation

 

[Lemon law]

Should such weapons come into the hands of those that desire to destroy Israel and are used against Israel; I would expect that the IDF will take off the kid gloves and solve the issue, regardless of world opinion.

The perps and sponsors will be held accountable.

Israel stood back and took it during Gulf War I at the request of the world. They are not going to take it a second time to allow a feel good situation

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Therein lies the rub, these are stateless terrorists, who will freely use anyone's territory to attack from. What happens if they attack from the Mediterranean sea? What will Israel, nuke the Sea? What happens if they trespass on Jordanian territory and attack Israel. Is the fact that Jordan can't patrol 100% of their land 100% of the time to mean Israel is justified in attacking Jordan in retaliation if such a strike comes?
Or better yet Egypt who also shares a border.

From the standpoint of the terrorists, they would want Israel to unjustly attack as many countries as possible. And because surroundings countries are being attacked by Israel, they will have no choice but to strike back. And as soon as Israel takes the gloves off, all they do is mostly kill the innocent which has been the recent Israeli track record in both Lebanon and Gaza. The Common Courtesy assumption is that Israel can
Track down the source and rip it out by it roots when they take their gloves off? Something that is only half way feasible now, because it now takes a large territory to cache enough rockets to do any damage at all. But if the rocket range is longer, and more importantly, if the war head is packed with something far more damaging than conventional explosives, it only takes one rocket to permanently poison a large area.
Exact aim not even needed.

Right now the rocket range is limited and chemical, biological, and radiological weapons are not being used yet, but I still ask how far off is the day.

 

[EagleKeeper]

...

What will happen when those chemical, biological, and radiological weapons come.

Will that be what its takes to get Israeli to finally come to the peace table?

Should such weapons come into the hands of those that desire to destroy Israel and are used against Israel; I would expect that the IDF will take off the kid gloves and solve the issue, regardless of world opinion.

The perps and sponsors will be held accountable.

Israel stood back and took it during Gulf War I at the request of the world. They are not going to take it a second time to allow a feel good situation

Therein lies the rub, these are stateless terrorists, who will freely use anyone's territory to attack from. What happens if they attack from the Mediterranean sea? What will Israel, nuke the Sea? What happens if they trespass on Jordanian territory and attack Israel. Is the fact that Jordan can't patrol 100% of their land 100% of the time to mean Israel is justified in attacking Jordan in retaliation if such a strike comes?
Or better yet Egypt who also shares a border.

From the standpoint of the terrorists, they would want Israel to unjustly attack as many countries as possible. And because surroundings countries are being attacked by Israel, they will have no choice but to strike back. And as soon as Israel takes the gloves off, all they do is mostly kill the innocent which has been the recent Israeli track record in both Lebanon and Gaza. The Common Courtesy assumption is that Israel can
Track down the source and rip it out by it roots when they take their gloves off? Something that is only half way feasible now, because it now takes a large territory to cache enough rockets to do any damage at all. But if the rocket range is longer, and more importantly, if the war head is packed with something far more damaging than conventional explosives, it only takes one rocket to permanently poison a large area.
Exact aim not even needed.

Right now the rocket range is limited and chemical, biological, and radiological weapons are not being used yet, but I still ask how far off is the day.

Over the past 30 years, there have been only two groups and their offspring that have been attacking Israel.
The PLO (from which has sprung Fatah & Hamas) and Hezbollah).
both have been funded/assisted from Iran/Syria and other Arab countries (Saudi/Egypt are the main).

There are other countries/people that have given lip service (some are actually here at AT).

Jordan is pretty good at keeping track of trouble makers - they do not want anything with Israel.

Hezbollah tangled with Israel and is licking their wounds. Yes, Israel is sore, but it was the world and Hezbollah that screamed for protection (again).
Israel would be more than willing to clean out Lebanon should anything be launched from that territory.

Syria is plane scared of Israel and has shown to be powerless to stop the IAF.
Israel would have no qualms about plastering Syria from where a launch site was located.

Gaza is on notice and the same applies there that applies to the north.
Anything from there will be addressed by overwhelming force. Hamas again ran screaming to the world for help when they made a mistake on Israel's resolve.

From the sea, I would suspect that Israel will detect and be able to determine who launched such an attack if not deterred. If it was so simple; many would have tried it before.

If those "stateless" terrorists want to punish the Palestinians instead of making life better for them; then what are they hoping to accomplish. They are not acting for the Palestinians, they are attempting to harm them. Which is the way the Arab world has handled the situation for the past 60 years.

I am not saying that it can not be done against Israel - just that the consequences and logistics make it difficult to absolve responsibility.

 

[piasabird]

Maybe they should carpetbomb Iran.

 

[SamurAchzar]

The Gaza pullout was just part of The Great Middle East Peace Process Scam:


My only question is; it that you are too ignorant to have known this yourself, or just too dishonest to say so?

Very nice, excerpts from an interview seamlessly mixed with the author interpretation. Even when Israel gives back territories, it's still evil.

 

[kylebisme]

If those "stateless" terrorists want to punish the Palestinians instead of making life better for them; then what are they hoping to accomplish.

The terrorists punishing Palestinians already have a state, but they hope to continue expanding it into what little is left of Palestinian territory in the West Bank too.

Very nice, excerpts from an interview seamlessly mixed with the author interpretation.

I quoted from the article because it provides the context to the Gaza pullout and the sham which has been made of the peace process as a whole. You can find the full context of the quote here:

The disengagement plan is the preservative of the sequence principle. It is the bottle of formaldehyde within which you place the president's formula so that it will be preserved for a very lengthy period. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that's necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.

And as noted in the article I quoted from previously:

The limited withdrawals were intended to provide Israel with the political room to deepen and widen its presence in the West Bank, and that is what they achieved.

So, the claim that Israel attempted peace with the Gaza pullout is nothing more than a canard used to cover for Israel's ongoing conquest of the West Bank which continues to this day.

Even when Israel gives back territories, it's still evil.

I've never claimed Israel was "evil", and rather consider "misguided" a more fitting description; both for those who thought withdrawing from some territory while expanding eslewhere was a gesture of peace, and for those who know better but engage in such chicanery anyway. Of course there are Israelis who see such shams for what they are too, but unfortunately not many.

 

[EagleKeeper]

If those "stateless" terrorists want to punish the Palestinians instead of making life better for them; then what are they hoping to accomplish.

The terrorists punishing Palestinians already have a state, but they hope to continue expanding it into what little is left of Palestinian territory in the West Bank too.

The Palestinians had no qualms about trying to exterminate Israel.

If the Palestinians had not chosen the road to attack Israel, there might have been some improvement in their chances. Pre-conditions now do not accomplish them anything except loss of time and land.

They have continually bit the hand that was offered and still expect it to be extended again. The world does not evolve around what is perceived to be right or wrong. the Palestinians are not going to get the '48 borders; they may get a portion of the '67 borders IF they want to live in peace and share with Israel.

But they have to speak with one voice and demonstrate that peace is desired.

 

[OCGuy]

Maybe they should carpetbomb Iran.

There will be bombing, but it will be far from the "carpet" variety.

 

[werepossum]

SNIP
I've never claimed Israel was "evil", and rather consider "misguided" a more fitting description; both for those who thought withdrawing from some territory while expanding eslewhere was a gesture of peace, and for those who know better but engage in such chicanery anyway. Of course there are Israelis who see such shams for what they are too, but unfortunately not many.

Those are the Israelis whom the Palestinians plan to kill last. LOL

 

[Lemon law]

Pardon me Common Courtesy, but saying, "But they ( The palestinian people ) have to speak with one voice and demonstrate that peace is desired.", is a somewhat absurd dream. As it is, Israel is deeply divided, the Palestinian people, now being split into Fatah and Hamas are even more deeply divided, and then we have to factor in the few percent of them that are active terrorists, and also the surrounding Arab nations who are deeply unhappy with Israeli policies.

As it is, and on all sides, its the extremists that drive the policies, and for sheer bat shit crazy, there is not a dimes worth of difference between Israeli settler parties and stateless anti Israeli terrorists.

And in that general climate, any realistic peace process is completely lost in the shuffle. And as the conflict moves into year 62, with not a dimes worth of progress, the lone bright spot may still be land for peace using the land captured during the 1967 war. Land Israel can have no legitimate claim on.

If we want a peace process, we can't reward Israel for settling on more and more disputed land. And as far as I am concerned, Israel will never agree to anything but totally one sided terms, meaning the international community will have to step in and impose binding arbitration on both sides. Neither side will be happy, and after 62 years total fairness is an impossible standard, but at least both sides can like it or lump it while being forced to accept the settlement.

Meanwhile waiting for a 100% of Israelis and a 100% of Palestinians to agree, is the same as saying it will never never happen.

 

[kylebisme]

The Palestinians had no qualms about trying to exterminate Israel.

It's not "the Palestinians" attacking Israel, it is some Palestinians attacking Israel, while bigoted fucking bigoted morons like yourself are exterminating what little is left of Palestine.

They have continually bit the hand that was offered and still expect it to be extended again.

Some can't help but to bite hand that plays a shell games like pulling out of Gaza while continuing to colonize the West Bank.

The world does not evolve around what is perceived to be right or wrong. the Palestinians are not going to get the '48 borders; they may get a portion of the '67 borders IF they want to live in peace and share with Israel.

Palestinians have only been expecting the '67 borders, as is rightfully theirs under international law, but it seems most Zionists have no regard for international law.

But they have to speak with one voice and demonstrate that peace is desired.

Individuals speak with their own voices, you fucking fascist. I suppose your inability to grasp that is why you sound like a broken record regardless of what information which contradicts your position you are presented with.

 

[kylebisme]

Those are the Israelis whom the Palestinians plan to kill last. LOL

This sounds like the psychological projections of one sick fucker to me.

 

[Ozoned]

This sounds like the psychological projections of one sick fucker to me.

Well then,,,what is their plan?

 

[Ozoned]

Palestinians have only been expecting the '67 borders, as is rightfully theirs under international law, but it seems most Zionists have no regard for international law.


.

International law allows israel the right of self defense. The "Palestinians" Arab brothers kinda fucked up the right to those 67 borders.

 

[kylebisme]

Well then,,,what is their plan?

In the vast majority, a two-state solution on the basis of international law. However, since Israel's ongoing colonization of the West Bank is killing off any chance of that, it seems they might be moving to calling out for equal rights in a single state, which of course will cause Jewish supremacists to fly off the handle.

International law allows israel the right of self defense.

Sure, we all have the right to self defence, but Israels ongoing colonization of the West Bank while holding millions of Palestinians under overwhelming military force and killing off anyone who gets in the way isn't self defense.

The "Palestinians" Arab brothers kinda fucked up the right to those 67 borders.

Like a rape victim fucked herself by wearing such a short skirt, eh?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozoned
Well then,,,what is their plan?

In the vast majority, a two-state solution on the basis of international law. However, since Israel's ongoing colonization of the West Bank is killing off any chance of that, it seems they might be moving to calling out for equal rights in a single state, which of course will cause Jewish supremacists to fly off the handle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozoned
International law allows israel the right of self defense.

Sure, we all have the right to self defence, but Israels ongoing colonization of the West Bank while holding millions of Palestinians under overwhelming military force and killing off anyone who gets in the way isn't self defense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozoned
The "Palestinians" Arab brothers kinda fucked up the right to those 67 borders.

Like a rape victim fucked herself by wearing such a short skirt, eh?

Your purely an idiot Kylebisme.....
We all know about the 6 day war in "67" and we all know that the "Palestinians" Arab brothers really did screw things up for the Palestinians.

Of course we need to remember that your the goof ball who started that WTC7 thread.......rofl..hahahaha