Israel celebrates its 60th Anniversary

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: event8horizon
thank u british gov and mr rothschild, job well done.


balfour declaration

Balfour Declaration of 1917: An official letter from the British Foreign Office headed by Arthur Balfour, the UK's Foreign Secretary (from December 1916 to October 1919), to Lord Rothschild, who was seen as a representative of the Jewish people. The letter stated that the British government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

LOL, Palestine at the time wasn't even an area of land, did you know that, of course not.

LOL, Yah, us Brits did it, in truth it was land bought, but you'd never get that you stupid fucking twat.

Why not just say "i hate Jews" and be done with it, why try to prove a point that is false and even if it was true, irrelevant to the topic?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Lemon law
RichardE, Its quite apparent that you are only listening to the Israeli version of the truth.

The Oslo accords were the European US version, and then there is the Arab version that turns increasing less pragmatic.

As I said already, only recently have the Arabs been complaining about the land Israel is now building upon. Until recently it was more or less agreed that would be Israels land with a right to return in effect. Now the Arabs want all of it *shrug*. It goes back to what I have said where they are trying to squeeze all they can out of peace agreements instead of coming to compromises.

I don't get the "right to return" at all, you sold your fucking land and house, or your forefathers did it, no one was forced of the land.

And Richard, let's just say Palestinians, motsly semites, just like the Jews but very few Arabs, i know you like them being Arabs, you know, like we're fighting in Afghansitan and who were responsible for 9/11 9/11 9/11.

But it's bullshit and you know it, most of them aren't even Arabs, they are Persians.

 

[event8horizon]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: event8horizon
thank u british gov and mr rothschild, job well done.


balfour declaration

Balfour Declaration of 1917: An official letter from the British Foreign Office headed by Arthur Balfour, the UK's Foreign Secretary (from December 1916 to October 1919), to Lord Rothschild, who was seen as a representative of the Jewish people. The letter stated that the British government "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

LOL, Palestine at the time wasn't even an area of land, did you know that, of course not.

LOL, Yah, us Brits did it, in truth it was land bought, but you'd never get that you stupid fucking twat.

Why not just say "i hate Jews" and be done with it, why try to prove a point that is false and even if it was true, irrelevant to the topic?

hahaha....what the hell are u talking about. it was part of the ottoman empire. when they broke up the empire, it was called the palestinian mandate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_mandate
The British Mandate for Palestine, sometimes referred to as the Mandate of Palestine, was a League of Nations Mandate created after the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was split up by the Treaty of Sèvres.

The British Mandate over Palestine came to an end on 15 May 1948, heralding the start of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the establishment of Israel in 1948.


do u remember that terrorist strike on the king david hotel????? ran out the brits....

i have no idea what u are taling about. the balfour declartion zero's in on "palestine"....

and what does this have to do with hating "jews"???

 

[Sinsear]

Happy Birthday Israel!!!

To Hell with Hamas!!

 

[Lemon law]

I think JOS has a point, its not a matter of blaming British here, many of the original jewish inhabitants came fron Russian jews fleeing the repression there as they bought land and settled. Nor, IMHO, was the initial formation of the state of Israel
in 1948 an unwise decision. Only the events after 1948 have proved less than wise on all sides.

It was also the huge number of Jewish refugees after WW2 that also drove the necessity. Blaming the Brits holds no water.

 

[event8horizon]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think JOS has a point, its not a matter of blaming British here, many of the original jewish inhabitants came fron Russian jews fleeing the repression there as they bought land and settled. Nor, IMHO, was the initial formation of the state of Israel
in 1948 an unwise decision. Only the events after 1948 have proved less than wise on all sides.

It was also the huge number of Jewish refugees after WW2 that also drove the necessity. Blaming the Brits holds no water.

i think arafat once said that he didnt mind the jews, just the zionist. and as we all know, not all jews are zionist and not all zionist are jews.

so are u saying that the terrorist strike against the king david hotel directed towards the brits was "justified". that was the defining moment from what ive read. the brits left and israel was established.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Zionism

Zionism is an international political movement that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine (Hebrew: Eretz Yisra'el, ?the Land of Israel?), and continues primarily as support for the modern state of Israel.[1]

 

[HeXploiT]

Originally posted by: Dari
Celebrations began today but I believe the official date is May 14.

I hope they change their electoral system so they can have more stable governments going forward (and not be held hostage to small parties). This will lead to better governance.

I hope they change their government so they can keep their sovereignty and be free of the controlling political parties in America who have hijacked the Zionist cause. All that Zionism really is is the need for Israel to keep her home yet politicians in America have turned it into the front of the war or terror.
Happy birthday and GOD BLESS ISRAEL!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: tvarad
palehorse74:

"our inexplicable relationship with them is certainly at odds with most of what our founding fathers believed..."

Right. I'm sure they'd be extremely upset about us be-friending a country patterned after most Western democracies. Whereas they'd be thrilled to bits about out warm and friendly relationships with the Saudi-Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and various other dictatorships in the Middle-East.

They wouldnt have supported ANY relationships like those we have with Saudi, Egypt, or Israel. "Be-friending" nations is just fine -- it's when you begin giving away uncounted billions of dollars, and promoting an unwritten defensive pact with any/all of them at the same time, where things go beyond the explicable, and straight into chaos...

?The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is - in extending our commercial relations - to have with them as little political connection as possible.? - George Washington

You really should take a few minutes to read his entire farewell speech.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: RichardE

What is really funny is the fact that Israel has received around 80-90 billion dollars in aid since the first 100k loan in 49, and other countries around Israel have seen somewhat equal amounts (50 billion to Egypt since 1975). Wonder why no one ever mentions this?


Either way, happy birthday Israel :beer:

Nobody mentions it because the amount of aid giong to Israel to other Arab nations around Israel is really like 3:1 in Israel's favor. The only reason we are paying other Arab states around Israel is to prevent them from attack Israel onsite. Its bribery. Either way, the USA is paying Israel and its neighbhors to keep the area stable.

To me, its just not worth it. The only thing Jews give us is Hollywood movies and our news media, but both are horseshit so I'd rather not pay and keep the money. The Arabs give us nothing but Oil. But we have to still buy it on the market like anybody else, so again, its horseshit and I'd rather keep the money.

My kids school is barely operational, I'd like to see our states receive the aid we'd send to Israel and its neighbhors instead. The funny thing is, Israel's schools are probably better than our own, and we are the ones funding Israel. /boggle.

That's s stupid assessment of Jews considering they give you your religion, 46% of Nobel laureates even though they make up less than 1% of the world population; and dominate the sciences.

 

[event8horizon]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: tvarad
palehorse74:

"our inexplicable relationship with them is certainly at odds with most of what our founding fathers believed..."

Right. I'm sure they'd be extremely upset about us be-friending a country patterned after most Western democracies. Whereas they'd be thrilled to bits about out warm and friendly relationships with the Saudi-Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and various other dictatorships in the Middle-East.

They wouldnt have supported ANY relationships like those we have with Saudi, Egypt, or Israel. "Be-friending" nations is just fine -- it's when you begin giving away uncounted billions of dollars, and promoting an unwritten defensive pact with any/all of them at the same time, where things go beyond the explicable, and straight into chaos...

?The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is - in extending our commercial relations - to have with them as little political connection as possible.? - George Washington

You really should take a few minutes to read his entire farewell speech.

straight into chaos????.....didnt u know that order arises from chaos!!!!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: event8horizon

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: tvarad
palehorse74:

"our inexplicable relationship with them is certainly at odds with most of what our founding fathers believed..."

Right. I'm sure they'd be extremely upset about us be-friending a country patterned after most Western democracies. Whereas they'd be thrilled to bits about out warm and friendly relationships with the Saudi-Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and various other dictatorships in the Middle-East.

They wouldnt have supported ANY relationships like those we have with Saudi, Egypt, or Israel. "Be-friending" nations is just fine -- it's when you begin giving away uncounted billions of dollars, and promoting an unwritten defensive pact with any/all of them at the same time, where things go beyond the explicable, and straight into chaos...

?The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is - in extending our commercial relations - to have with them as little political connection as possible.? - George Washington

You really should take a few minutes to read his entire farewell speech.

straight into chaos????.....didnt u know that order arises from chaos!!!!

This is not the time, or place, to discuss, or apply, Chaos Theory.

We should instead begin to question, very loudly, our self-destructive and contradicting relationships with Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and several others around the world.

 

[event8horizon]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: event8horizon

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: tvarad
palehorse74:

"our inexplicable relationship with them is certainly at odds with most of what our founding fathers believed..."

Right. I'm sure they'd be extremely upset about us be-friending a country patterned after most Western democracies. Whereas they'd be thrilled to bits about out warm and friendly relationships with the Saudi-Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and various other dictatorships in the Middle-East.

They wouldnt have supported ANY relationships like those we have with Saudi, Egypt, or Israel. "Be-friending" nations is just fine -- it's when you begin giving away uncounted billions of dollars, and promoting an unwritten defensive pact with any/all of them at the same time, where things go beyond the explicable, and straight into chaos...

?The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is - in extending our commercial relations - to have with them as little political connection as possible.? - George Washington

You really should take a few minutes to read his entire farewell speech.

straight into chaos????.....didnt u know that order arises from chaos!!!!

This is not the time, or place, to discuss, or apply, Chaos Theory.

We should instead begin to question, very loudly, our self-destructive and contradicting relationships with Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and several others around the world.

:beer:

i agree

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
And the USA celebrates its 60th year of propping them up...financially and militarily.

QFT

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
We should instead begin to question, very loudly, our self-destructive and contradicting relationships with Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and several others around the world.

I agree as well, there's some funky shit goin on there that needs to be aired out.

 

[Aimster]

Israel is getting aid money because....?

Last I checked they don't need it whereas Egypt does.

 

[Dari]

Fair or not, many here forget that the United States is not the only nation propping up Israel. There is also Germany, France, and Great Britain. All these nations owe the Jews considering their actions during WWII. Just as with slavery, younger Germans, Brits, French, and Americans question their allegiance to a nation whom they have little to do with AND that gives little in return. But it's an agreement that our fathers made and we're obligated to it. Nevertheless, as more and more peple start asking why we are obligated, I believe that fundamental questions will have to be answered. One is the security of Israel. The problem is made even more difficult considering our military adventurism in that region and the propping up of failed regimes.

Unless we want to guarantee Israel's security forever, we need to be more pragmatic towards the people of the ME and not just their rulers. Hopefully, the next President can twist the arms of the current leaders so that they are more answerable to their people. That should make it easier to let go of Israel.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel is getting aid money because....?

Last I checked they don't need it whereas Egypt does.

Yes, because Israel has the funds to keep pace with the arms race from the oil rich Arab countries. Why does Egypt need the money aimster?

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Lemon law
RichardE, Its quite apparent that you are only listening to the Israeli version of the truth.

The Oslo accords were the European US version, and then there is the Arab version that turns increasing less pragmatic.

As I said already, only recently have the Arabs been complaining about the land Israel is now building upon. Until recently it was more or less agreed that would be Israels land with a right to return in effect. Now the Arabs want all of it *shrug*. It goes back to what I have said where they are trying to squeeze all they can out of peace agreements instead of coming to compromises.

I don't get the "right to return" at all, you sold your fucking land and house, or your forefathers did it, no one was forced of the land.

And Richard, let's just say Palestinians, motsly semites, just like the Jews but very few Arabs, i know you like them being Arabs, you know, like we're fighting in Afghansitan and who were responsible for 9/11 9/11 9/11.

But it's bullshit and you know it, most of them aren't even Arabs, they are Persians.

a) To say no one was forced off the land and they willingly sold it is a huge lie. Even historians like Benny Morris (who, if I remember right, believe it was a great thing that Indians were forced off the land because it allowed for the US to expand...much in the same way that Arabs were kicked out was a good thing because it allowed a Jewish state...how sickening to justify the means by the end) agreed it was an ethnic cleanse, although he will be one to say that it was simply the result of war and nothing else.

b) To say they are Persians is even more laughable....So I'm guessing they magically went from speaking Farsi to speaking Arabic, right? I'm guessing their old documents were in Farsi as opposed to Arabic.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Dari
Fair or not, many here forget that the United States is not the only nation propping up Israel. There is also Germany, France, and Great Britain. All these nations owe the Jews considering their actions during WWII. Just as with slavery, younger Germans, Brits, French, and Americans question their allegiance to a nation whom they have little to do with AND that gives little in return. But it's an agreement that our fathers made and we're obligated to it. Nevertheless, as more and more peple start asking why we are obligated, I believe that fundamental questions will have to be answered. One is the security of Israel. The problem is made even more difficult considering our military adventurism in that region and the propping up of failed regimes.

Unless we want to guarantee Israel's security forever, we need to be more pragmatic towards the people of the ME and not just their rulers. Hopefully, the next President can twist the arms of the current leaders so that they are more answerable to their people. That should make it easier to let go of Israel.

Well for sure if it is McCain we will see no development on that front. Just 100 years in Iraq

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Dari
Fair or not, many here forget that the United States is not the only nation propping up Israel. There is also Germany, France, and Great Britain. All these nations owe the Jews considering their actions during WWII.

Perhaps Germany owes the Jews for their treatment during WWII, but how do you figure these other countries owe the Jews?
AFAIK, GB didn't kill Jews, France didn't kill Jews, (although their government may have rolled over and let the Germans take their country without much of a fight)

Originally posted by: Dari
Just as with slavery, younger Germans, Brits, French, and Americans question their allegiance to a nation whom they have little to do with AND that gives little in return. But it's an agreement that our fathers made and we're obligated to it. Nevertheless, as more and more peple start asking why we are obligated, I believe that fundamental questions will have to be answered. One is the security of Israel.

I don't know of any agreement that requires our government to funnel billions of US tax dollars into any sovereign nation, especially one that has a history of spying on us...or attacking our naval vessels.

Originally posted by: Dari
The problem is made even more difficult considering our military adventurism in that region and the propping up of failed regimes.
Unless we want to guarantee Israel's security forever, we need to be more pragmatic towards the people of the ME and not just their rulers. Hopefully, the next President can twist the arms of the current leaders so that they are more answerable to their people. That should make it easier to let go of Israel.

After 60 years, the world should let Israel "sink or swim."

Of course, with all the US military support they've received over the years, once we pull all our support, the M.E. nations would probably resume their attacks on Israel, and the Israeli's would most likely light the nuclear candle...the one we provided to them...

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Dari
Fair or not, many here forget that the United States is not the only nation propping up Israel. There is also Germany, France, and Great Britain. All these nations owe the Jews considering their actions during WWII.

Perhaps Germany owes the Jews for their treatment during WWII, but how do you figure these other countries owe the Jews?
AFAIK, GB didn't kill Jews, France didn't kill Jews, (although their government may have rolled over and let the Germans take their country without much of a fight)

The West knew about the atrocities the Nazis were committing and did nothing. In addition to their own intelligence they were getting reports from those escaping the warzones. Even after the war nations like Great Britain sent Jews back to Germany because they simply didn't want them.

Originally posted by: Dari
Just as with slavery, younger Germans, Brits, French, and Americans question their allegiance to a nation whom they have little to do with AND that gives little in return. But it's an agreement that our fathers made and we're obligated to it. Nevertheless, as more and more peple start asking why we are obligated, I believe that fundamental questions will have to be answered. One is the security of Israel.

I don't know of any agreement that requires our government to funnel billions of US tax dollars into any sovereign nation, especially one that has a history of spying on us...or attacking our naval vessels.

These are gentlemens' agreements and, thus, are more implicit than explicit.

Originally posted by: Dari
The problem is made even more difficult considering our military adventurism in that region and the propping up of failed regimes.
Unless we want to guarantee Israel's security forever, we need to be more pragmatic towards the people of the ME and not just their rulers. Hopefully, the next President can twist the arms of the current leaders so that they are more answerable to their people. That should make it easier to let go of Israel.

After 60 years, the world should let Israel "sink or swim."

Of course, with all the US military support they've received over the years, once we pull all our support, the M.E. nations would probably resume their attacks on Israel, and the Israeli's would most likely light the nuclear candle...the one we provided to them...

Doubtful. Prosperous nations that trade, and are in good relations, with each other have a habit of not fighting each other. There are obviously exceptions. But, I believe, once the Palestinian issue has been resolved, all Arab nations will fall into line and have relations with the Jewish state.

 

[BoomerD]

So you're saying the world has some obligation to protect people from oppression? Then why aren't we invading North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, or any of the other myriad of countries that treat their citizens poorly, kill them by the thousands, or in general, aren't too much better than the Nazi's were?


IMO, we had NO obligation to stop the genocide of the Jewish people, NOT because I'm some raving anti-semitic, but because we have no business interfering with the actions of other countries against their own citizens. I DO believe we had a duty to come to the aid of European nations to stop German aggression, and to help them repel the German invaders, but only because Germany attempted to conquer those European nations. NOT because of how they treated the Jews.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So you're saying the world has some obligation to protect people from oppression? Then why aren't we invading North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, or any of the other myriad of countries that treat their citizens poorly, kill them by the thousands, or in general, aren't too much better than the Nazi's were?


IMO, we had NO obligation to stop the genocide of the Jewish people, NOT because I'm some raving anti-semitic, but because we have no business interfering with the actions of other countries against their own citizens. I DO believe we had a duty to come to the aid of European nations to stop German aggression, and to help them repel the German invaders, but only because Germany attempted to conquer those European nations. NOT because of how they treated the Jews.

Europe failed to protect its own citizens. this was European shame. they are making up for it now by committing to Israel's security. America's obligation was less so but still shameful considering we aided the Germans on some occasion and turned a blind eye of reports of atrocities. But after WWII, the US Government supported the Arabs more than israel because israel was a socialist country. That changed after 1967 when socialist France withdrew military support to an Israel that was fighting her neighbors. America stepped in and the rest is history.

Don't get me wrong. The world isn't perfect and we aren't obligated to stop all atrocities (even though it is UN law that we must). But, just as our allegiance is skewed towards Europe, America's preference is skewed towards Israel because of the amount of (prosperous) Jews in America. Granted, if jews were as poor as African Americans, America probably wouldn't give a damn. But they are rich and the rich always have disproportinate influence over policy. You may not like it but that's how the world works.

 

[The Green Bean]

:thumbsdown: 60 years of illegal occupation.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
:thumbsdown: 60 years of illegal occupation.

And here's to 600 more. The only countries that don't recognize Israel are muslim theocracies and dictatorships, so who gives a crap what they consider to be legal. When the world eventually weans itself off oil, the ME will revert to a stoneage wasteland once again and it will probably tear itself apart while the world turns away in apathy.