Israel celebrates its 60th Anniversary

[magomago]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
:thumbsdown: 60 years of illegal occupation.

Illegal? According to who? Monarchies? Dictatorships? Theocratic states? Terrorist gangs that end up oppressing their own people and do their own people no good? People who would rather engage in violence against Israel instead of working to get their own houses in order?

What's amazing is just how much restraint and charity Israel has used over the years. If the Israelis had had a Soviet or Chinese mentality (or an Islamic mentality) they would already have dominion over the Middle East and they would have long since enslaved, expelled, or exterminated the Arabs while reaping the oil riches.

Illegal according to the International Court of Justice. It IS an illegal occupation and you will NOT get around that.

You should work for the DNC if you're gonna say that and mean it.

1) I'm not a democrat
2) I say exactly what I mean

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/...2=4&p3=6&case=131&k=5a

This isn't anything special. He asked to "whom" it was illegal and cited monarchies, dictatorhips and theocracies.

Rather than let such a stupid statement exist, I simply stated that the Int. Court of Justice ALSO, near unanimously agrees with this. Its very clear, there is NO "grey area", and if that was the case their ruling would be hundreds of pages long...

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: magomago

Illegal according to the International Court of Justice. It IS an illegal occupation and you will NOT get around that.

...and the International Court of Justice has credibility and should be taken seriously because...?

 

[OokiiNeko]

The only countries that don't recognize Israel are muslim theocracies and dictatorships,

Good thing we don`t let any of those guys visit the White House.

 

[OokiiNeko]

Kind of a mixed bag here. I understand how Israel got started, understand that there weren`t a lot of Palestinians who got displaced in the beginning. (Not sure how people are saying hundreds of thousands?)
Give credit to the early Jews there who basically turned scrub land into farms and communities.
Yes, the Arabs came for them, yes the Arabs got their asses handed to them. At some point Egypt woke up and agreed not to attack cause I think they got tired of getting their asses handed to them.

BUT, there were agreements made, as the pretty maps showed in that commie-pinko-liberal rag National Geographic many years ago, that Israel is not living up to.

How about those agreements (UN resolutions actually, the same kind of resolutions the US used as justification to invade Iraq, so we know those ARE legal, right?) be honored. The Palestinians be given the area promised (not the separated chunks Israel wants to give them), and then we say, There you go Palestine, there`s your state, here is a bunch of aid, now if you attack Israel, EVERYBODY is gonna come kick your ass.

If only it were this simple

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: magomago

Illegal according to the International Court of Justice. It IS an illegal occupation and you will NOT get around that.

...and the International Court of Justice has credibility and should be taken seriously because...?

a) I do not recognize any legitmate authority that the ICJ has over the United States. It cannot order us to do anything, or force us to do anything

but that said - the ICJ 's opinions is important to look at as one of policy making as well as forming an opinion on the problems that do occur today. Even American Judges do work there, and I believe one atleast one of the judges is an American.

If you want to doubt the ICJ's credibility you are being unfair. Go ahead and read how the ICJ works
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...ional_Court_of_Justice
It provides a VERY fair system that is thorough and while it may have its faults, to automatically assume it should be disregarded is itself too quick of an assessment to make.

I brought up the ICJ because that previous poster attempted to quietly push the idea that only those who are asscociated with a theocracy/monarchy/dictatorship believe that it is an illegal occupation. That plants the idea that the entire issue has is laughable and can be brushed aside and that is sickening. The ICJ makes it VERY clear that Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem are occupied territories.

Damn I wish I had a speach I listened to where the presenter went through VERY systemically and described this step by step. If I can get ahold of the transcript I will post it.

edit:

removed some personal attacks.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko
Kind of a mixed bag here. I understand how Israel got started, understand that there weren`t a lot of Palestinians who got displaced in the beginning. (Not sure how people are saying hundreds of thousands?)
Give credit to the early Jews there who basically turned scrub land into farms and communities.
Yes, the Arabs came for them, yes the Arabs got their asses handed to them. At some point Egypt woke up and agreed not to attack cause I think they got tired of getting their asses handed to them.

BUT, there were agreements made, as the pretty maps showed in that commie-pinko-liberal rag National Geographic many years ago, that Israel is not living up to.

How about those agreements (UN resolutions actually, the same kind of resolutions the US used as justification to invade Iraq, so we know those ARE legal, right?) be honored. The Palestinians be given the area promised (not the separated chunks Israel wants to give them), and then we say, There you go Palestine, there`s your state, here is a bunch of aid, now if you attack Israel, EVERYBODY is gonna come kick your ass.

If only it were this simple

Many in the Israeli side (I can't say all because there are a few understanding folks here) do not support this. The current "peace plans" which push for full normalization with Israel floated by ARAB nations re remphasize those old plans and state 1967 borders - these are borders where Israel has 78% of the land and Palestine gets 22% of the land. When I refer to the "Israeli Side" I'm talking about the political establishment - the actual people will always have a wide variety of opinions.
Hamas even stated that any plan, if accepted through popular vote by Palestinians, would be accepted by themselves as well.
The question is not whether or not the Arabs will accept this plan, to which even the most "backwards and repressive" monarchies push...but whether or not the Israeli political side will accept that plan. More and more settlements, continuing to build a wall to cut off Palestinians, and using policy to oppress palestinians more and drive them to more violence (note: I'm not justifying this violence at ALL. Terrorism is terrorism on both sides and no one should get a pass) completely cut off the chance of this plan being implented.
The goal? Wait as long as possible so you can try to lay claim to even more of the land.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: magomago
The current "peace plans" which push for full normalization with Israel floated by ARAB nations re remphasize those old plans and state 1967 borders - these are borders where Israel has 78% of the land and Palestine gets 22% of the land.

Allow me to point out the hypocrisy of touting the 1967 borders -- and the associated UN resolutions -- by the very same countries that were in control of the land in 1967 and which opted for war that caused further problems.

Also, please don't play games with numbers: a huge chunk of those 78% is a desert, while the best arable land is in those 22%.

Portraying these countries as the champions of peace is an insult to the intelligent mind.

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko
How about those agreements (UN resolutions actually, the same kind of resolutions the US used as justification to invade Iraq, so we know those ARE legal, right?) be honored. The Palestinians be given the area promised (not the separated chunks Israel wants to give them), and then we say, There you go Palestine, there`s your state, here is a bunch of aid, now if you attack Israel, EVERYBODY is gonna come kick your ass.

With those kind of plans we can have peace in our time.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko
Kind of a mixed bag here. I understand how Israel got started, understand that there weren`t a lot of Palestinians who got displaced in the beginning. (Not sure how people are saying hundreds of thousands?)
Give credit to the early Jews there who basically turned scrub land into farms and communities.
Yes, the Arabs came for them, yes the Arabs got their asses handed to them. At some point Egypt woke up and agreed not to attack cause I think they got tired of getting their asses handed to them.

BUT, there were agreements made, as the pretty maps showed in that commie-pinko-liberal rag National Geographic many years ago, that Israel is not living up to.

How about those agreements (UN resolutions actually, the same kind of resolutions the US used as justification to invade Iraq, so we know those ARE legal, right?) be honored. The Palestinians be given the area promised (not the separated chunks Israel wants to give them), and then we say, There you go Palestine, there`s your state, here is a bunch of aid, now if you attack Israel, EVERYBODY is gonna come kick your ass.

If only it were this simple

Note that the resolutions initiated by the Soviet and Arab blocs to protect the Arab/Palestinian interests every time the Arabs attempted something against Israel and were spanked.

The Arabs never acknowledge the duplicity in all the attacks, they want the '67 boundaries, because that is the only time that they have a chance of claiming to be the victim.

When the Arabs controlled the '67 boundaries (from '48 to '67), they never did anything to asst the Palestinians in terms of government or improving the land. The Arabs were pawns of the Soviets and the Palestinians were pawns of the Arabs.

Hamas did not say the '67 borders were acceptable to them; they explicitly reserved the right recently to ignore the wishes of the Palestinians w/ respect to any agreement with Israel.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko
Kind of a mixed bag here. I understand how Israel got started, understand that there weren`t a lot of Palestinians who got displaced in the beginning. (Not sure how people are saying hundreds of thousands?)
Give credit to the early Jews there who basically turned scrub land into farms and communities.
Yes, the Arabs came for them, yes the Arabs got their asses handed to them. At some point Egypt woke up and agreed not to attack cause I think they got tired of getting their asses handed to them.

BUT, there were agreements made, as the pretty maps showed in that commie-pinko-liberal rag National Geographic many years ago, that Israel is not living up to.

How about those agreements (UN resolutions actually, the same kind of resolutions the US used as justification to invade Iraq, so we know those ARE legal, right?) be honored. The Palestinians be given the area promised (not the separated chunks Israel wants to give them), and then we say, There you go Palestine, there`s your state, here is a bunch of aid, now if you attack Israel, EVERYBODY is gonna come kick your ass.

If only it were this simple

Note that the resolutions initiated by the Soviet and Arab blocs to protect the Arab/Palestinian interests every time the Arabs attempted something against Israel and were spanked.

The Arabs never acknowledge the duplicity in all the attacks, they want the '67 boundaries, because that is the only time that they have a chance of claiming to be the victim.

When the Arabs controlled the '67 boundaries (from '48 to '67), they never did anything to asst the Palestinians in terms of government or improving the land. The Arabs were pawns of the Soviets and the Palestinians were pawns of the Arabs.

Hamas did not say the '67 borders were acceptable to them; they explicitly reserved the right recently to ignore the wishes of the Palestinians w/ respect to any agreement with Israel.

Not only that, Hamas Quassam faction has sworn to fight until Israel is no more.

I'd say give them the fight, there are enough spf's in IDF and Israel definently has bombs and planes and about to get more.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

One thing many forget is that Israel is inhabited by 20% Palestinians, along with the refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon that is about all the Palestinians who even have claim to ANY land in the vincinity of Israel, the ones that are called Palestinians of today are people who were refused to return to their own land in the surrounding arab states.

But that doesn't really matter, does it? The historical claim to land is long gone and a two state solution is the only choice, either Hamas gets that or Hamas keeps shooting hundreds of rockets at innocent people, in which case i support the eradication of every man, woman, child and building in "palestine".

FFS, Israel has a right to defend their civilian population.

 

[OokiiNeko]

One thing many forget is that Israel is inhabited by 20% Palestinians, along with the refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon that is about all the Palestinians who even have claim to ANY land in the vincinity of Israel, the ones that are called Palestinians of today are people who were refused to return to their own land in the surrounding arab states.

I read some years ago that even though there has been violence in Israel and Palestine, that Jerusalem is relatively peaceful, considering there are Muslims, Jews and Christians living side-by-side.

FFS, Israel has a right to defend their civilian population.

If you are as world wise as you say you are, you know there has been plenty of violence from BOTH sides. We just hear more about the one than the other from our mass media.
Going further, you should very definitely know, being who you say you are, that the mass media gets stuff wrong more than most people think.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: OokiiNeko

One thing many forget is that Israel is inhabited by 20% Palestinians, along with the refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon that is about all the Palestinians who even have claim to ANY land in the vincinity of Israel, the ones that are called Palestinians of today are people who were refused to return to their own land in the surrounding arab states.

I read some years ago that even though there has been violence in Israel and Palestine, that Jerusalem is relatively peaceful, considering there are Muslims, Jews and Christians living side-by-side.

FFS, Israel has a right to defend their civilian population.

If you are as world wise as you say you are, you know there has been plenty of violence from BOTH sides. We just hear more about the one than the other from our mass media.
Going further, you should very definitely know, being who you say you are, that the mass media gets stuff wrong more than most people think.

Of course it does, though when Israel starts launching rockets into Palestine indiscriminately you will defiantly hear about it, remember that. As for Jerusalem peace, yes it is peaceful now, since the wall was put up. (the same one one that people cried about saying it would change nothing). It is very peaceful now more or less. Violence has been comminted on both sides, but as I have said before, and has been said before by many. If Palestine and the Arabs were to lay down there weapons we would have peace, if Israel were to lay down her weapons she would be destroyed.