Holy crap, I didn't think I'd be attacked this badly.
1) Living in the woods, I see many of those trucks doing what they were meant for a LOT.
2) I never said SUV owners don't. Jeez, SUV arguments only have people see black and white. Lighten up.
No. I think the problem there is really just excessiveness of what's needed. We own a Rendevous, and if we're not going to use it to what it's really used for (long drive to Canada so we'd like some comfortability, or mass amounts of storage for the kind of stuff we do), we use our Pontiac Vibe or my Focus. By the way, busses and trains don't come around here. Heck a train, here, is nonexistant.
What if you could only own ONE vehicle. Would you keep the Rendevous. The Rendevous can do everything the cars can, put the converse is not true.
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
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RiDE
Platinum Member
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I don't know about where you live but around here soccermoms in minivans and pickups are rare, if any at all even.
I couldn't give a sh*t about what any of you people drive, I do give a sh*t about how you people drive and living in the city of idiot drivers in cars, trucks, and SUV alike, it seems like the bigger the vehicle is the more passive the driver becomes about his/her surroundings.
Actually, we'd get rid of the Rendevous if we can only own one vehicle, to be totally honest.
[edit] Heck, I just remembered we owned a full-size van with all the stuff in it, and it was just too much. Too big, too much gas, trying to park was hell, we honestly felt bad for the cars behind us while we were trying to park or being on a road and seeing a long line of them.
Even in my Focus, especially when at a place I'm not familiar with and I'm going very slow and notice there's cars behind me that want to pass, I pull over towards the side to let them through.
[edit] Heck, I just remembered we owned a full-size van with all the stuff in it, and it was just too much. Too big, too much gas, trying to park was hell, we honestly felt bad for the cars behind us while we were trying to park or being on a road and seeing a long line of them.
Even in my Focus, especially when at a place I'm not familiar with and I'm going very slow and notice there's cars behind me that want to pass, I pull over towards the side to let them through.
No, I don't mind a much higher chance of living through the experience...
Here's one link on the rules, apparently (judging by other stuff I dug up on it), the cutoff limit is a 5500 pound truck, and it must have a tarp or a cover on the back - no open bed. I'm also told restrictions will be getting tighter, but not sure exactly how. Regardless, in my area you'd definitely have to have a specific reason for it or never need to use the main highway in the area.
That is great. But the Rendevous is one of those SUV's that is more of a van. It isn't a towing, 4-wheel drive badass mofo that will take you up a cliff wall. If you had a boat, or a riding lawnmower on a trailer, or a couple of snowmachines, would you rather have a Focus or an SUV? I don't even know what we are aruiging about anymore. Basically, some people do own SUV's because they are trendy, and you would be one of the people that bought one just to have it. If you can afford to get rid of it, you don't need it. don't argue for the other side when you are one of the people being discussed.
I'd own a truck by then =0þ
But you're going backwards against everything what I was talking about in the first place, the very thing you bashed me for: "I'm not an SUV basher, but I see a problem with your argument: Usually those who own pickup trucks have a real good reason why they own them."
I would much rather be hit by a Ford Escape SUV (~4,500 pounds) than a Ford F-250 (about 8,500 pounds) or a Minivan like the Pontiac Montana (Weight of about ~5,300 pounds)
All weights can be found on MSN.
NFS4
No Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,636
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EAT LEAD (In reference to Japanese cars making up the VAST majority of Asian car sales in the US)!!!
2003 Sales
Acura 170,918
Honda 1,349,847
Toyota/Lexus 1,606,559
Suzuki 58,438
Nissan/Infiniti 794,481
Subaru 186,819
Mazda 258,865
Isuzu 30,328
Hyundai 400,221
Kia 237,471
Total Japanese: 4,456,255 / 85.7%
Total Korean: 637,682 / 14.3 %
LOOKS LIKE A VAST MAJORITY TO ME SO STEP UP OFF ME!
Originally posted by: NFS4
EAT LEAD!!!
2003 Sales
Acura 170,918
Honda 1,349,847
Toyota/Lexus 1,606,559
Suzuki 58,438
Nissan/Infiniti 794,481
Subaru 186,819
Mazda 258,865
Isuzu 30,328
Hyundai 400,221
Kia 237,471
Total Japanese: 4,456,255 / 85.7%
Total Korean: 637,682 / 14.3 %
LOOKS LIKE A VAST MAJORITY TO ME SO STEP UP OFF ME!
Eat lead is ummm..quite the wrong header.
Finally, someone actually has statistics, which was my point. I disagree that it is a VAST, VAST majority, but it is a very high percentage. 90% > 85.7%. Vast, Vast majority implies that there is so little of the others that it is statistically insignificant, and 14% is NOT insignificant.
- Mar 20, 2000
- 102,402
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- 126
he said a vast majority was 90%Originally posted by: NFS4
EAT LEAD (In reference to Japanese cars making up the VAST majority of Asian car sales in the US)!!!
2003 Sales
Acura 170,918
Honda 1,349,847
Toyota/Lexus 1,606,559
Suzuki 58,438
Nissan/Infiniti 794,481
Subaru 186,819
Mazda 258,865
Isuzu 30,328
Hyundai 400,221
Kia 237,471
Total Japanese: 4,456,255 / 85.7%
Total Korean: 637,682 / 14.3 %
LOOKS LIKE A VAST MAJORITY TO ME SO STEP UP OFF ME!
No you wouldn't, the issue is height, not curb weight. This is a good visual example. While side impacts generally aren't good things either way, you can see how the SUV went up & over most of the car's protection - this happens from the front & rear as well. Instead of the car absorbing the majority of the damage, the occupant's head & torso do.
NFS4
No Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,636
- 47
- 91
Originally posted by: ElFenix
he said a vast majority was 90%Originally posted by: NFS4
EAT LEAD (In reference to Japanese cars making up the VAST majority of Asian car sales in the US)!!!
2003 Sales
Acura 170,918
Honda 1,349,847
Toyota/Lexus 1,606,559
Suzuki 58,438
Nissan/Infiniti 794,481
Subaru 186,819
Mazda 258,865
Isuzu 30,328
Hyundai 400,221
Kia 237,471
Total Japanese: 4,456,255 / 85.7%
Total Korean: 637,682 / 14.3 %
LOOKS LIKE A VAST MAJORITY TO ME SO STEP UP OFF ME!
Wait, I forgot mitsubishi. BRB
Yes, I would. Ford Escape is very low to the ground. Why don't you admit you have a problem with "tall" vehicles in general, and not SUV's, and the discussion can be done? Plus, if that other car were an SUV it wouldn't have happened. Yet another case where driving an SUV would have saved someones life. :laugh:
SUV's are superior. They do more damage than other vehicles (so do trucks and minivans) but that doesn't mean we should stop driving them. It means it is time for your vehicles to come up a little off the ground.
I didn't say I disagreed. But you can't post a thread and just say "Here is a fact. I have no proof." I appreciate you getting statistics. But while you are, you are forgetting other car companies I'm sure. At it isn't about what is being purchased now, but about how many there are on the streets. Show me some statistics about the number of cars registered and not sales, and I will be more accepting.
NFS4
No Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 72,636
- 47
- 91
Acura 170,918
Honda 1,349,847
Toyota/Lexus 1,606,559
Suzuki 58,438
Nissan/Infiniti 794,481
Subaru 186,819
Mazda 258,865
Isuzu 30,328
Mitsubishi 256,809
Hyundai 400,221
Kia 237,471
Total Japanese: 4,713,064 / 86.5%
Total Korean: 637,682 / 13.5%.
86.5% If that isn't a vast majority, then strike me with a shovel. If it's not, then if 51% is a majority, then what would you call 86.5%?
As for how many are on the streets, the Japanese have been here far longer than the Koreans and early Korean cars (1980's Hyundai Excels,etc.) can't hold a candle to 1980's Japanese cars. You still see 80's Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans on the road. How many of Hyundai's of that vintage do you still see running? Hyundai/Kia has only recently (~2000) made strides in increading their quality/reliability. And only recently (again, ~2000) did Hyundai/Kia sales spike upwards after they introduced the super long warranties.
And why did they offer super long warranties?? B/C US buyers wouldn't touch Korean cars with a ten-foot pole before due to reliability issues and (still to this day) piss poor resale value
Honda 1,349,847
Toyota/Lexus 1,606,559
Suzuki 58,438
Nissan/Infiniti 794,481
Subaru 186,819
Mazda 258,865
Isuzu 30,328
Mitsubishi 256,809
Hyundai 400,221
Kia 237,471
Total Japanese: 4,713,064 / 86.5%
Total Korean: 637,682 / 13.5%.
86.5% If that isn't a vast majority, then strike me with a shovel. If it's not, then if 51% is a majority, then what would you call 86.5%?
As for how many are on the streets, the Japanese have been here far longer than the Koreans and early Korean cars (1980's Hyundai Excels,etc.) can't hold a candle to 1980's Japanese cars. You still see 80's Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans on the road. How many of Hyundai's of that vintage do you still see running? Hyundai/Kia has only recently (~2000) made strides in increading their quality/reliability. And only recently (again, ~2000) did Hyundai/Kia sales spike upwards after they introduced the super long warranties.
And why did they offer super long warranties?? B/C US buyers wouldn't touch Korean cars with a ten-foot pole before due to reliability issues and (still to this day) piss poor resale value
More misinformation
an all loaded Montana extended and with All wheel drive is 4431 lb from MSN, regulars are about 4000lb
His statement said AND EUROPE so those numbers aren't represented
I just read and article, said since 96, NA manufacturere auto market share had fallen from 75% of sales to 55% of TOTAL sales comparatively.
an all loaded Montana extended and with All wheel drive is 4431 lb from MSN, regulars are about 4000lb
His statement said AND EUROPE so those numbers aren't represented
I just read and article, said since 96, NA manufacturere auto market share had fallen from 75% of sales to 55% of TOTAL sales comparatively.
I just went there:
http://autos.msn.com/research/...;trimid=-1&src=vip
It says GVWR is 5357. I apologize, that is the maximum it can carry including cargo. Still, it is on par with a compact SUV and I feel I made my point clear. SUV is a title, and a truck or van can be more dangerous.
I did say AND EUROPE. Vast majority means that the rest is STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT. I agree it is a majority. But 15% is NOT statistically insignificant.
Ok
straigthened out
Did you check my link earlier link? NA American mini vans statistically are almost the safest vehcicles you can buy. the worst is NA full sized trucks
Make/Model Type - Driver Deaths, Other Deaths, Total
Toyota Avalon
large 40 20 60
Chrysler Town & Country
minivan 31 36 67
Toyota Camry
mid-size 41 29 70
Volkswagen Jetta
subcompact 47 23 70
Ford Windstar
minivan 37 35 72
Nissan Maxima
mid-size 53 26 79
Honda Accord
mid-size 54 27 82
Chevrolet Venture
minivan 51 34 85
Buick Century
mid-size 70 23 93
Subaru Legacy/Outback
compact
74 24 98
Mazda 626
compact 70 29 99
Chevrolet Malibu
mid-size 71 34 105
Chevrolet Suburban
S.U.V. 46 59 105
Jeep Grand Cherokee
S.U.V. 61 44 106
Honda Civic
subcompact 84 25 109
Toyota Corolla
subcompact 81 29 110
Ford Expedition
S.U.V. 55 57 112
GMC Jimmy
S.U.V. 76 39 114
Ford Taurus
mid-size 78 39 117
Nissan Altima
compact 72 49 121
Mercury Marquis
large 80 43 123
Nissan Sentra
subcompact 95 34 129
Toyota 4Runner
S.U.V. 94 43 137
Chevrolet Tahoe
S.U.V. 68 74 141
Dodge Stratus
mid-size 103 40 143
Lincoln Town Car
large 100 47 147
Ford Explorer
S.U.V. 88 60 148
Pontiac Grand Am
compact 118 39 157
Toyota Tacoma
pickup 111 59 171
Chevrolet Cavalier
subcompact 146 41 186
Dodge Neon
subcompact 161 39 199
Pontiac Sunfire
subcompact 158 44 202
Ford F-Series
pickup 110 128 238
From this table you are more likely, by 3X to kill or be killed in a F150 over a Ford Windstar, or a Dodge T&C, or a Montana
straigthened out
Did you check my link earlier link? NA American mini vans statistically are almost the safest vehcicles you can buy. the worst is NA full sized trucks
Make/Model Type - Driver Deaths, Other Deaths, Total
Toyota Avalon
large 40 20 60
Chrysler Town & Country
minivan 31 36 67
Toyota Camry
mid-size 41 29 70
Volkswagen Jetta
subcompact 47 23 70
Ford Windstar
minivan 37 35 72
Nissan Maxima
mid-size 53 26 79
Honda Accord
mid-size 54 27 82
Chevrolet Venture
minivan 51 34 85
Buick Century
mid-size 70 23 93
Subaru Legacy/Outback
compact
74 24 98
Mazda 626
compact 70 29 99
Chevrolet Malibu
mid-size 71 34 105
Chevrolet Suburban
S.U.V. 46 59 105
Jeep Grand Cherokee
S.U.V. 61 44 106
Honda Civic
subcompact 84 25 109
Toyota Corolla
subcompact 81 29 110
Ford Expedition
S.U.V. 55 57 112
GMC Jimmy
S.U.V. 76 39 114
Ford Taurus
mid-size 78 39 117
Nissan Altima
compact 72 49 121
Mercury Marquis
large 80 43 123
Nissan Sentra
subcompact 95 34 129
Toyota 4Runner
S.U.V. 94 43 137
Chevrolet Tahoe
S.U.V. 68 74 141
Dodge Stratus
mid-size 103 40 143
Lincoln Town Car
large 100 47 147
Ford Explorer
S.U.V. 88 60 148
Pontiac Grand Am
compact 118 39 157
Toyota Tacoma
pickup 111 59 171
Chevrolet Cavalier
subcompact 146 41 186
Dodge Neon
subcompact 161 39 199
Pontiac Sunfire
subcompact 158 44 202
Ford F-Series
pickup 110 128 238
From this table you are more likely, by 3X to kill or be killed in a F150 over a Ford Windstar, or a Dodge T&C, or a Montana
Yes, but the question is deaths caused by these vehicles when hitting crappy little cars. Is Ford Escape vs. Toyota Camry worse than F-350 Truck vs. Toyota Camry? I don't think so.
ITS both, deaths where the driver dies IE the first number added to deaths where they kill somebody in econo box. In either case your 3X more likely to die, or at least in most avg SUV's 2X as likely over a well engineered Camry, Accord, Jetta or NA minivan.
Those are per capita numbers, as I posted earlier ,you are the safest in all types of accidents in vehicles that weigh about 4000 lb and properly engineered IE mid sized sedans and/or minivans. Accident avoidance is almost as important as metal.. So I'd like to A not get into an accident to start with and B if I do, get in one with the right combination of mass around me, with safety features.
Those are per capita numbers, as I posted earlier ,you are the safest in all types of accidents in vehicles that weigh about 4000 lb and properly engineered IE mid sized sedans and/or minivans. Accident avoidance is almost as important as metal.. So I'd like to A not get into an accident to start with and B if I do, get in one with the right combination of mass around me, with safety features.
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