Invasion repelled.

[Stokely]

Good thing we don't have more important things to worry about, like the administration's own dire climate report, or the fact that citizens just lost 100,000,000 bucks in medical bills for this fucking recent lettuce contamination (that the government was supposed to be working on to prevent things like this). Life is good I guess when you only have to worry about pepper spraying women and children for daring to want a better life. Yay, America.

 

[realibrad]

Of course they should be stopped, although after being stopped the US should stop its own lawless behavior in regards to processing their refugee status. We can't keep acting illegally like this.

As to the idea that tear gassing them was necessary to repel this assault well...I know people who work at San Ysidro, in CBP no less. The idea that those women and children were going to overrun the border crossing and escape into America is fucking hilarious. It was unnecessary and everyone knows it.

You cannot allow rocks and other things to be thrown at people. That is simply unacceptable and dangerous to allow. Once the people turned violent, you have to shut it down and establish order.

What response do you think should have happened?

 

[K1052]

So its the Palin defense. If you believe that those countries have been abused by the US, then logically you would want to offer the same if not more benefits to people more abused by the US. You don't, so it must because they are close, or to say it another way "I can see them".

Slippery slope fallacy.

So, you expect people to come forward and validate the claims? Or would you expect people to go out and validate the claims? Not only does that sound impossible, but expensive.

The vast majority of people would be able to do the former. We'd need to do some of the latter with people where the backup isn't so clear cut. It's not impossible unless the standard for "impossible" is now moderately difficult with a bit of effort. As a basically one time cost it would have to be an enormous number for me to say it wasn't worth it.

Great, that only tracks people as they come in. How to you deal with people that overstay, which is a huge chunk of how people get here?

Send them back the way they came. If they are unable to interact economically inside the US due to employment eligibility verification (backed with real penalties) there will be a lot less allure to staying.

 

[K1052]

You cannot allow rocks and other things to be thrown at people. That is simply unacceptable and dangerous to allow. Once the people turned violent, you have to shut it down and establish order.

What response do you think should have happened?

Maybe something crazy like calmly allow those people to actually apply for asylum at US ports of entry, per US law, in an orderly and safe fashion instead of what the administration is trying to do (block them by any means required).

 

[fskimospy]

You cannot allow rocks and other things to be thrown at people. That is simply unacceptable and dangerous to allow. Once the people turned violent, you have to shut it down and establish order.

What response do you think should have happened?

Nah, police deal with people who throw rocks all the time without resorting to these tactics.

The real issue is that the US is violating the law, that's the problem that needs to be addressed. If the US wasn't acting so lawlessly it wouldn't be a problem to begin with.

 

[realibrad]

Slippery slope fallacy.

No. Slippery slope does not apply here. Your stated reasons should include people other than what you have said, but, they do not. The conclusion of that is because of location, and not what you later stated about being abused. You are better off avoiding terms you do not understand.

The vast majority of people would be able to do the former. We'd need to do some of the latter with people where the backup isn't so clear cut. It's not impossible unless the standard for "impossible" is now moderately difficult with a bit of effort. As a basically one time cost it would have to be an enormous number for me to say it wasn't worth it.

We already have a hard time with people coming forward as it is. You now expect them to not only come forward, but, to rat out everyone that knew about them? Horribly short sighted.

Also, you underestimate the cost of going out and verifying this.

Send them back the way they came. If they are unable to interact economically inside the US due to employment eligibility verification (backed with real penalties) there will be a lot less allure to staying.

So now go back to punishing immigrants.

 

[realibrad]

Nah, police deal with people who throw rocks all the time without resorting to these tactics.

The real issue is that the US is violating the law, that's the problem that needs to be addressed. If the US wasn't acting so lawlessly it wouldn't be a problem to begin with.

Yeah, they use force. So what force do you think should have been used? As for the actions and system we have, its not the fault of the agents that were being assaulted.

 

[K1052]

No. Slippery slope does not apply here. Your stated reasons should include people other than what you have said, but, they do not. The conclusion of that is because of location, and not what you later stated about being abused. You are better off avoiding terms you do not understand.

Your reimagining of what my position is doesn't change anything.

We already have a hard time with people coming forward as it is. You now expect them to not only come forward, but, to rat out everyone that knew about them? Horribly short sighted.

Because we have a moron in the WH who wants to, illegaly, use stuff like the census to deport people and a small collection of asshole GOP senators and policy nuts who would probably just as soon literally exterminate these people. But by all means lets lament a declined trust in government.

Also, you underestimate the cost of going out and verifying this.

You are claiming a high cost but haven't even produced a guesstimate figure.

So now go back to punishing immigrants.[

dismissivejerkingoffmotion.gif

 

[Alpha One Seven]

An "invasion" to be truly terrified of

View attachment 949

View attachment 950

If only it was just this small group, it would be nice, wouldn't it.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of others that are not so friendly in the groups so they all have to be vetted before entry. There are people destroying and damaging US property just to enter, they must be very anxious to sit in a US jail.

 

[K1052]

Nah, police deal with people who throw rocks all the time without resorting to these tactics.

The real issue is that the US is violating the law, that's the problem that needs to be addressed. If the US wasn't acting so lawlessly it wouldn't be a problem to begin with.

TLAMs against bridges and power plants in Honduras should do it.

MAGA.

 

[Alpha One Seven]

Yeah, they use force. So what force do you think should have been used? As for the actions and system we have, its not the fault of the agents that were being assaulted.

The law is that if a person feels their life is being threatened they have the right to use whatever force they need to in order to protect themselves. Don't want tear gas? Don't rush police officers with a hundred of your buddies. Simple.

 

[realibrad]

Your reimagining of what my position is doesn't change anything.

You said this "They are connected to us on a walkable landmass and we've historically abused the shit out of them." We have abused people more, so what it comes down to is how close they are. Its black and white there.

Because we have a moron in the WH who wants to, illegaly, use stuff like the census to deport people and a small collection of asshole GOP senators and policy nuts who would probably just as soon literally exterminate these people. But by all means lets lament a declined trust in government.

What? Clearly people are unwilling to expose themselves. You are suggesting they not only expose themselves, but others that knew. Why would your idea work, but the Census not?

You are claiming a high cost but haven't even produced a guesstimate figure.

You don't need to give a figure to establish it will be expensive. You can look at the Census and how much it costs to try and get the done. It was around 13 billion. Further, the most costly part per capita was trying to verify numbers from people that were afraid to give out their information. This was a big debate about how Trump wanting to include a question that people felt afraid to answer was not needed and costs us money.

 

[realibrad]

The law is that if a person feels their life is being threatened they have the right to use whatever force they need to in order to protect themselves. Don't want tear gas? Don't rush police officers with a hundred of your buddies. Simple.

Which is why I want to know what force he thinks was justified. You have people lobbing rocks at border agents, then things are going bad and something needs to happen.

 

[Amused]

If only it was just this small group, it would be nice, wouldn't it.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of others that are not so friendly in the groups so they all have to be vetted before entry. There are people destroying and damaging US property just to enter, they must be very anxious to sit in a US jail.

Oh no. It's the boogeyman!

Guess what? The refugee process has vetting.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah, they use force. So what force do you think should have been used? As for the actions and system we have, its not the fault of the agents that were being assaulted.

It doesn’t matter if the agents individually crafted the policy, the US government’s lawless behavior is why it exists so they bear the responsibility. Keep your focus on the root illegal behavior.

As for what actions to take there is an entire spectrum of force. I have seen no indication this level of response was required, particularly considering the makeup of the crowd.

 

[fskimospy]

The law is that if a person feels their life is being threatened they have the right to use whatever force they need to in order to protect themselves. Don't want tear gas? Don't rush police officers with a hundred of your buddies. Simple.

Presumably you also think the US should stop violating the law by illegally preventing them from applying for asylum, correct?

 

[K1052]

You said this "They are connected to us on a walkable landmass and we've historically abused the shit out of them." We have abused people more, so what it comes down to is how close they are. Its black and white there.

You are debating against a position I never took in trying to use a slippery slope argument against me:

If you believe that those countries have been abused by the US, then logically you would want to offer the same if not more benefits to people more abused by the US

I never accepted this premise.

What? Clearly people are unwilling to expose themselves. You are suggesting they not only expose themselves, but others that knew. Why would your idea work, but the Census not?

Black letter law amnesty for them any anybody who can corroborate. This isn't hard.

You don't need to give a figure to establish it will be expensive. You can look at the Census and how much it costs to try and get the done. It was around 13 billion. Further, the most costly part per capita was trying to verify numbers from people that were afraid to give out their information. This was a big debate about how Trump wanting to include a question that people felt afraid to answer was not needed and costs us money.

Expensive is a relative term. I might consider a new car expensive. A government might consider a $15B aircraft carrier expensive (or not).

The inclusion of a citizenship question was a transparent bid to pressure non-response for Republican political gain. Ross even, apparently, lied to congress about who came up with the idea. The further ideas that have emerged that the data could be used to identify non-citizens is a flagrant violation of the law.

 

[realibrad]

It doesn’t matter if the agents individually crafted the policy, the US government’s lawless behavior is why it exists so they bear the responsibility. Keep your focus on the root illegal behavior.

As for what actions to take there is an entire spectrum of force. I have seen no indication this level of response was required, particularly considering the makeup of the crowd.

So again I will ask you, what do you think should have been done then?

 

[fskimospy]

So again I will ask you, what do you think should have been done then?

A lesser use of force. How many times do I need to answer this?

 

[realibrad]

You are debating against a position I never took in trying to use a slippery slope argument against me:



I never accepted this premise.




Black letter law amnesty for them any anybody who can corroborate. This isn't hard.




Expensive is a relative term. I might consider a new car expensive. A government might consider a $15B aircraft carrier expensive (or not).

The inclusion of a citizenship question was a transparent bid to pressure non-response for Republican political gain. Ross even, apparently, lied to congress about who came up with the idea. The further ideas that have emerged that the data could be used to identify non-citizens is a flagrant violation of the law.

I do not think you are responding honestly, so Ill drop it.

 

[realibrad]

A lesser use of force.

Like what? You said police response to these things. They shoot those people and or use force well beyond tear gas.

 

[fskimospy]

Like what? You said police response to these things. They shoot those people and or use force well beyond tear gas.

Or you do nothing and de-escalate the situation. Or you move people to areas where rocks can’t hit them, etc. etc. Some people throwing rocks does not demonstrate sufficient reason to gas hundreds of people, including many women and children.

The US government has acted illegally and has created a situation that makes for desperate people. What needs to happen now is an apology and extreme deference to them because the current situation is our fault.

As a warning you’re starting to do the realibrad thing again where you become irrationally fixated on minor details. Best to head it off now and refocus on the illegal behavior of the US government instead of trying to justify its actions in response to people hurt by it.

 

[DarthKyrie]

Oh the irony. North America is filled with European immigrants who came here uninvited, as refugees by the ship loads. They proudly flew Irish, Italian, French, German and other flags.

They showed up at Ellis Island "illegally" with no visa by the tens of millions. And we housed and fed them as we processed their refugee status. Most never learned English fluently. It was only the second generation that was fluent in English.

And here you are. Complaining about others doing EXACT SAME FUCKING thing most of our, YOUR, ancestors did. Even calling it an "invasion." Yeah, that's right. Tens of millions of uninvited Europeans showing up by the shiploads of five thousand or more at a time wasn't an "invasion" yet a few thousand central Americans is.

And the right-wing white nationalist media has shown them flying the flags of their home countries as if that is somehow "evil" or bad.

To this day, the descendants of the European migrations fly Italian, French, German and other flags. They still eat their native foods and celebrate their native culture.

That's irony right there.

Tell me, what's the difference now? Is it because they're brown?

I think we all know what the problem really is here. We wouldn't be having this discussion if this were a shipload of Norwegians.

The hilarious part is this style of racist fear mongering is nothing new:

And this is from a time when the Irish were considered "non-white."

My maternal grandfather's family had to deal with the anti-Irish bullshit when they came here, they dropped the O' from their name so people would think they were Scots. I remember hearing the stories about signs saying Help Wanted: Irish need not apply.

 

[blackangst1]

Its odd. A lot of the press is using the same photo. It's on Fox and a bunch of left leading places plus a few middle of the road ones.
I wonder if everyone sees it the same way? I can only see a desperate mother trying to look after her children.

View attachment 955

Hey look I can cherry pick photos too! Im sure these are the finest people....

Poor border guard. Im sure the person that did this was waiting their turn for asylum paperwork

Im sure these poeple also. I mean, this is a valid entrypoint to process for asylum, right?

And Im sure these people throwing rocks werent aiming aqt the border patrol. Surely they were killing time waiting legal entry.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYatU_kHqeo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYatU_kHqeo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEd65KobJIo

 

[WelshBloke]

Hey look I can cherry pick photos too!

If you can stop your sense of outrage from overriding your reading comprehension you'll see that you are raising the same issue I was.
EVERYONE, including media generally unsympathetic to the migrants, is using that picture. I scalped it from Fox.