Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

		Intel Alder Lake - N	Intel Wildcat Lake	Intel Lunar Lake		Mediatek D9500
Launch Date		Q1-2023	Q2-2026 ?	Q3-2024		Q3-2025
Model		Intel N300	?	Core Ultra 7 268V		Dimensity 9500 5G
Dies		2	2	2		1
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		TSMC N3P
CPU		8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		C1 1+3+4
Threads		8	6	8		8
Max Clock		3.8 GHz	?	5 GHz
L3 Cache		6 MB	?	12 MB
TDP		7 W	Fanless ?	17 W		Fanless
Memory		64-bit LPDDR5-4800	64-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533		64-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size		16 GB	?	32 GB		24 GB ?
Bandwidth			~ 55 GB/s	136 GB/s		85.6 GB/s
GPU		UHD Graphics		Arc 140V		G1 Ultra
EU / Xe		32 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		12
Max Clock		1.25 GHz		2 GHz
NPU		NA	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		100 TOPS ?

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Overclocker pushes Intel Core i9-14900KF to 9.12 GHz, setting new CPU frequency world record

HWBot's CPU Frequency chart shows that up until January 12, the current frequency world record holder and only person to push the past the 9 GHz mark...

www.techspot.com

Is that CPU able to boot normally now? I'm really, really concerned.

 

[SiliconFly]

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[SiliconFly]

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[coercitiv]

Bean counter! I feel it's gonna be a bean counter!

Or a salesman with strong domestic political ties. Or both.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Maybe Intel will get a "fixer" CEO like Starbucks got: https://www.yourcentralvalley.com/n...ceo-names-chipotle-chief-to-head-the-company/

 

[SiliconFly]

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[poke01]

For people who still think ARM is gonna replace x86. Even parallels is having trouble (and costs $100/yr).

View attachment 114979

It won't cost $100/yr on WoA laptops to emulate x86 windows apps. on WoA its free

 

[511]

Isn't x86 copyrighted how are they emulating it ?

 

[coercitiv]

Isn't x86 copyrighted how are they emulating it ?

The same way Apple and MS emulate x86.

 

[SiliconFly]

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[poke01]

WoA is DOA.

if Nvidia fails to make pro apps and games run, then its DOA. I'll wait till they release their own WoA laptops.

The biggest problem with WoA is GPU drivers. 64-bit CPU emulation is solved with newer WoA builds.

Announcing Windows 11 Insider Preview Build 27744 (Canary Channel)

Hello Windows Insiders, today we are releasing Windows 11 Insider Preview Build 27744 to the Canary Channel. We are also not planning to release SDKs for 27xxx series builds for the time being. What’s

blogs.windows.com

 

[MoistOintment]

It's definitely free on WoA. But the poor performance can't justify just about anything on WoA. WoA is DOA.

I think you're really overestimating the software requirements of the average user. The most important app for a modern PC to be able to run is a web browser. Not even just home users - there are entire career fields and large companies that are run entirely in web apps and the Office Suite. Potentially hundreds of millions of users could switch to WoA today and not have to emulate/translate a single app.

I think at this point it's inevitable that ARM takes over the client market. It's only a debate on the timeline. It'll be slow at first and then sudden. With Apple switching to ARM, that's already ~10% of the consumer client PC market.

Do not underestimate the impacts that Nvidia entering the WoA market will.

 

[SiliconFly]

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[LightningZ71]

Linux NEVER had the corporate backing of MS AND major hardware vendors to be a full up, broad market desktop replacement. In fact, due to IP issues and manufacturer recalcitrance, video drivers were fundamentally broken for most any hardware acceleration for any purpose for decades.

This is NOT the same.

 

[Markfw]

If thats the case, Linux should have taken over the world by now by a super wide margin. Linux is better than WoA in all aspects you just mentioned.

I agree that it should have, but the major problem is that while mint, for example is easy to install, many other software is NOT. And lack of gaming support and applications.

 

[Keller_TT]

If thats the case, Linux should have taken over the world by now by a super wide margin. Linux is better than WoA in all aspects you just mentioned.

Because Linux is not one OS but a kernel with diverging/confusing/incoherent Desktop Environments. It is a great playbox for geeks but lacks professional support for non-corporate, personal use. You don't install Linux but a Linux based distribution. And there's one Linux that is the world's most used OS: Android is Linux underneath with an overhauled mobile oriented kernel, graphical layer and touch interface optimization.

The situation for PC Linux has improved A LOT in the last couple of years, and 2025 will see many projects reaching completion and maturity.
Bazzite is like SteamOS for any PC, and works like a charm.

Anyways, w.r.t WoA, it's going to evolve really fast because it has really big names who have invested billions as they see it as a watershed moment, and the collective marketing plus OEM push will be ubiquitous.

 

[MoistOintment]

If thats the case, Linux should have taken over the world by now by a super wide margin. Linux is better than WoA in all aspects you just mentioned.

Not even remotely comparable. In addition to what everyone else has said (WoA has major backing and investment from the likes of MS, Qualcomm, Nvidia) - it's just straight up already easier to implement WoA in a corporate environment than it is Linux. Can you easily hybrid join a Linux device to AD/Entra and get all pre-existing GPOs and Intune policies applied? Can you Autopilot a Linux device? No.

Hell, it's easier to deploy iPads in a corporate environment than it is to deploy Linux Desktop. Linux desktop has been hovering in place for a while now - and the only real traction Linux has made into the client segment (Android, Chrome OS, SteamOS) have all been corporate distros with major backing.

In regular user land, If I gave someone like my mother a WoA device, she would not be able to tell the difference between that and x86. The vast majority of people won't even know wtf x86 vs ARM means. They'll just see Windows.

People here really underestimate the existential threat WoA places on organizations like Intel. The whole growth trajectory of ARM definitely played a part in Gelsinger's 'Fab-first' (and flirtation with GPU) strategy: That as CPUs become more commodified with more businesses competing in this space. As hyperscalers custom design their own CPUs. As x86 market share continues to shrink relative to ARM. As DC compute becomes more GPU focused. As x86 becomes increasingly legacy-market focused - a business centered around the design of x86 CPUs just simply won't have the necessary volume to be worthwhile in the coming years.

x86's legacy mote helps sustain and slow the bleed of existing markets due to compatibility. But its inherent duopoly means no new markets to expand into and motivation from others to invest in alternative ISAs.

 

[SiliconFly]

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[Doug S]

For people who still think ARM is gonna replace x86. Even parallels is having trouble (and costs $100/yr).

View attachment 114979

Nobody with a need to "run Windows apps" would run the Windows x86 OS on an ARM Mac. They'll use Parallels to run Windows ARM on it, and leave the x86 emulation up to Windows. That performance is pretty good - 50-70% of native.

Apple didn't design their x86 emulation towards being fast for privileged code. It is targeted solely at user level code. Emulating how the x86 MMU works and so forth is very costly, but totally unnecessary for 99.99% of "I need to run Windows stuff on my Mac" use cases.

 

[MoistOintment]

Same kinda reasoning people have been using for a while now. But it never seems to work.


Oh my! No comments.


Existential threat?!? Extinction Level Event? I prefer Hollywood movies for such drama.

Let get back to reality. Microsoft has been trying HARD! R.E.A.L H.A.R.D to get people to use Windows 11 for many years now. But to no avail. Nobody wants to upgrade in spite of giving it away for free, ending support for previous version, force upgrading, etc. They've tried everything and failed. That too to get people to upgrade to a genuinely better version that Win10 in almost all aspects. And you're talking about a company that couldn't push its mainstay Win11 even for free. This is reality.

WoA being an "existential threat" is pure fan fiction. Dream on.

It's not pure fan fiction. Mac switching to ARM, and with it Intel losing ~10% of their client customer base, was the catalyst. I seriously think you're underestimating the power that Nvidia has to shape the market.

You can screenshot this comment and reflect back on it in 6 - 10 years. Nvidia APUs in laptops are fundamentally a threat to AMD and Intel's core business.

Oh my! No comments.

And where's the lie? Apple single handedly moved 10% of the client PC market off x86. x86 didn't capture mobile phones. It didn't capture the iOT market. It didn't capture VR headsets. It's not expanding into any new markets that are growing. Instead it's losing marketshare in client. It's losing marketshare in embedded and industrial. It's losing marketshare in server. CPU in general is becoming less relevant in datacenter compute.

Amazon launched Graviton EC2 instances. Microsoft is shifting the Surface Line to Qualcomm. QC SdE is gaining marketshare unlike past failed attempts and launched with better OEM options and relationships than Zen 5.

Past Failures are not indicative of future failures.
The fact that previous attempts at WoA resulted in failure means about as much regarding future attempts at WoA as saying that my last coin flip landed on heads, therefore my next coin flip is less likely to be heads.

What's the remaining friction? Legacy Apps have to be emulated/translated and video games are problematic (for now)?

And FYI "Existential Threat" is a valid business concept you learn in business school (I.E the Model T to the horse and buggy industry)

 

[Keller_TT]

They've tried everything and failed. That too to get people to upgrade to a genuinely better version that Win10 in almost all aspects. And you're talking about a company that couldn't push its mainstay Win11 even for free.

It's the same Microsoft that also kept Win10 support for that long to make it possible, but all joy rides come to an end. Win10 started well and became the most polished OS that MS ever brought. It aged like fine wine. So, it's natural that people went "don't try to fix what ain't broke".
But already newer processors won't install Win10, and there'll be no security updates and day-0 critical patches for threats from some point this year.

If ARM and MS nail virtualization support with Hyper-V like for AMD-V and VT-x, that is already a game changer for WoA. I use OMNet++ a lot, and it supports ARM on every platform except Windows, and native WoA compilation is a target for this year.
NV will bring their A game for 3D, CFD software, and no user will have to worry if it's AMD64 or ARM64. Just buy the best Windows machine you want.

 

[DZero]

It's the same Microsoft that also kept Win10 support for that long to make it possible, but all joy rides come to an end. Win10 started well and became the most polished OS that MS ever brought. It aged like fine wine. So, it's natural that people went "don't try to fix what ain't broke".
But already newer processors won't install Win10, and there'll be no security updates and day-0 critical patches for threats from some point this year.

If ARM and MS nail virtualization support with Hyper-V like for AMD-V and VT-x, that is already a game changer for WoA. I use OMNet++ a lot, and it supports ARM on every platform except Windows, and native WoA compilation is a target for this year.
NV will bring their A game for 3D, CFD software, and no user will have to worry if it's AMD64 or ARM64. Just buy the best Windows machine you want.

Talking about W10, I think that Windows 7 ended better, but I need to say: Windows 10 bring us the ARM version, and that matters too.

 

[511]

Nvidia is the only threat to WoA and Intel's Fab are the only savior

 

[poke01]

If nearly all games work on WoA with the exception of anti-cheat games then thats a good start. Just need proper GPU drivers on WoA first.

 

[OneEng2]

Nobody with a need to "run Windows apps" would run the Windows x86 OS on an ARM Mac. They'll use Parallels to run Windows ARM on it, and leave the x86 emulation up to Windows. That performance is pretty good - 50-70% of native.

Interesting POV that people would be OK with a 50-70% performance decrease. Hmmm.

And where's the lie? Apple single handedly moved 10% of the client PC market off x86. x86 didn't capture mobile phones. It didn't capture the iOT market. It didn't capture VR headsets. It's not expanding into any new markets that are growing. Instead it's losing marketshare in client. It's losing marketshare in embedded and industrial. It's losing marketshare in server. CPU in general is becoming less relevant in datacenter compute.

Lets be clear, Apple nearly went under trying to compete with x86 PC's using ARM. The invention of the iPOD and subsequent creation of the iPhone saved the company ...... it WASN'T ARM.

ARM processors make very good low power devices. No argument. I have designed products around ARM, Coldfire, 68332, HC12, the ill fated Intel Automotive SOC, PIC, and yes, x86 for embedded devices.

For the higher processor requirements jobs, x86 worked better. For true embedded, or even linux based embedded, ARM usually fits the bill. For REALLY small things that need to be very inexpensive, draw little power, etc, I don't even bother with Linux, but rather with FreeRTOS that is stripped down to the elements I need for the product. In this last case (see your example of VR headset), you want DSP doing all the work and the RTOS is pretty darned slim. It doesn't matter if you are using ARM or some other ISA for these applications as the hardware and its built in capabilities is much more important than just the ISA.

For server work, x86 is currently untouchable with the exception of specific use cases by VERY large companies that can afford to custom make their entire software stack to be optimized for their own ARM design cpu's and platforms.

It's crazy all this "x86 doom, doom doom on you" talk in here!