Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
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Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

Intel Alder Lake - NIntel Wildcat LakeIntel Lunar LakeMediatek D9500
Launch DateQ1-2023Q2-2026 ?Q3-2024Q3-2025
ModelIntel N300?Core Ultra 7 268VDimensity 9500 5G
Dies2221
NodeIntel 7 + ?Intel 18-A + TSMC N6TSMC N3B + N6TSMC N3P
CPU8 E-cores2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores4 P-core + 4 LP E-coresC1 1+3+4
Threads8688
Max Clock3.8 GHz?5 GHz
L3 Cache6 MB?12 MB
TDP7 WFanless ?17 WFanless
Memory64-bit LPDDR5-480064-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?128-bit LPDDR5X-853364-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size16 GB?32 GB24 GB ?
Bandwidth~ 55 GB/s136 GB/s85.6 GB/s
GPUUHD GraphicsArc 140VG1 Ultra
EU / Xe32 EU2 Xe8 Xe12
Max Clock1.25 GHz2 GHz
NPUNA18 TOPS48 TOPS100 TOPS ?






PPT1.jpg
PPT2.jpg
PPT3.jpg



As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



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DavidC1

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Dec 29, 2023
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511 said:
there hasn't been one CEO like that since the O.G. Trinity they were humble
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I speculate once a reign of a fantastic CEO is over, all his bad traits essentially get carried over to the future yet the company doesn't abandon it because it was established as a foundation. Such warts and problems with the fantastic CEO works for *him* because it's counteracted by his good qualities and the way he runs the business, but once he's gone, then it's all negative.

The reason I say this is Intel is internally competitive to the point of being detrimental to the operation. The top team is all about squashing everyone that threatens them. It sounds very much like part of Andy Grove's character, a bit of a flaw that got carried into the future. I read an account where Grove wanted to basically stomp competition(AMD) by pricing them out and Moore prevented him from doing so.
 
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511

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2024
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DavidC1 said:
I speculate once a reign of a fantastic CEO is over, all his bad traits essentially get carried over to the future yet the company doesn't abandon it because it was established as a foundation. Such warts and problems with the fantastic CEO works for *him* because it's counteracted by his good qualities and the way he runs the business, but once he's gone, then it's all negative.

The reason I say this is Intel is internally competitive to the point of being detrimental to the operation. The top team is all about squashing everyone that threatens them. It sounds very much like part of Andy Grove's character, a bit of a flaw that got carried into the future. I read an account where Grove wanted to basically stomp competition(AMD) by pricing them out and Moore prevented him from doing so.
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Yes I am not surprised Huang feared that Intel too brutal and cut throat. Gordon and Noyce were Humble it's sad such great people don't run business anymore 🥹
 
I

igor_kavinski

Lifer
Jul 27, 2020
28,171
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The best CEO is one who has all the potential but never really was a CEO.

Jim Keller

His company seems to be doing fine. But being CEO of Tenstorrent is kinda like being the CEO of a chain of stores in comparison to giants like AMD, Nvidia and former giant Intel. His skills are being under-utilized.
 
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511

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2024
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igor_kavinski said:
The best CEO is one who has all the potential but never really was a CEO.

Jim Keller

His company seems to be doing fine. But being CEO of Tenstorrent is kinda like being the CEO of a chain of stores in comparison to giants like AMD, Nvidia and former giant Intel. His skills are being under-utilized.
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yeah he is a good candidate
btw
www.intel.com

Intel® Core™ Processors, FPGAs, GPUs, Networking, Software

Browse Intel product information for Intel® Core™ processors, Intel® Xeon® processors, Intel® Arc™ graphics and more.
www.intel.com www.intel.com
1736685592712.png
Best ARL CPU?
 
M

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
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DavidC1 said:
I said on package memory(not enough alone but LNL has PHY optimizations) alone is enough for 0.5-1W reduction which is substantial.

20-30% reduction makes it closer to Meteorlake than Lunarlake, and that's a huge amount. You are going from 15 hours to 10-12 hours.
Click to expand...


Did you see the power comparisons from video playback workloads between Lunar Lake and Meteor Lake? It was like 5-6W on LNL versus 10+ watts on Meteor Lake. This is coming from the much stronger LPE core cluster integrated into the compute tile. They can shut down the ringbus cores for many more workloads, this is the real big deal. Darkmont might be a few percent faster than Skymont. In many workloads the LPE cluster should be fast enough. This is not doable on MTL or ARL, even though ARL seems much better under full load thanks to N3B and LNC+Skymont. Under light load however no chance against LNL and for sure PTL.
 
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OneEng2

Senior member
Sep 19, 2022
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mikk said:
Did you see the power comparisons from video playback workloads between Lunar Lake and Meteor Lake? It was like 5-6W on LNL versus 10+ watts on Meteor Lake. This is coming from the much stronger LPE core cluster integrated into the compute tile. They can shut down the ringbus cores for many more workloads, this is the real big deal. Darkmont might be a few percent faster than Skymont. In many workloads the LPE cluster should be fast enough. This is not doable on MTL or ARL, even though ARL seems much better under full load thanks to N3B and LNC+Skymont. Under light load however no chance against LNL and for sure PTL.
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It is a nice architectural enhancement IMO.

Using a 3rd tier of processors (LPE) for the lightest of loads for good battery life ..... not a bad idea at all. This (as you point out) allows them to completely shut down the ring bus under these conditions.
 
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DavidC1

Golden Member
Dec 29, 2023
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mikk said:
Under light load however no chance against LNL and for sure PTL.
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This is in theory, which didn't work well at all for Meteorlake in practice. Intel themselves showed a mere 0.15W savings, which is minutes. I don't know how that video justified itself.

Also 5W and 10W is extremely high for a video playback workload. My Kabylake is under 4.5W while in Youtube playback, so what happened to the 10W system?

There's a huge difference between Lunar and Panther, and that LPE is on another tile. Data needs to be handed off to the LPE before the compute can be turned off, thus there will be a brief period when both tiles are on. If the turn on/off is too slow, you potentially have a scenario where you are better off not having LPE at all.
 
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LightningZ71

Platinum Member
Mar 10, 2017
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I wonder if the more performant and efficient Arrow lake-U (meteor lake u refresh) has a notably improved power profile than OG Meteor Lake? It seems that it should do better in race to idle and in light load situations. Intel 3 may not be night and day better than 4, but it IS an improvement.
 
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DavidC1

Golden Member
Dec 29, 2023
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LightningZ71 said:
I wonder if the more performant and efficient Arrow lake-U (meteor lake u refresh) has a notably improved power profile than OG Meteor Lake? It seems that it should do better in race to idle and in light load situations. Intel 3 may not be night and day better than 4, but it IS an improvement.
Click to expand...
It can't be worse, can it? It at least clocks significantly higher.

I initially was expecting much more from Foveros regarding latency and power. Maybe some of the disappointment is due to their lack of execution, but products seem to speak for themselves. Lakefield wasn't anything special, neither was Ponte Vecchio, nor Meteorlake.

The fact that there are multiple successors and with big changes to original Foveros suggest there's a way to go before coming even close to fulfilling original promises - disaggregation while minimizing penalty.
 
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DavidC1

Golden Member
Dec 29, 2023
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You know their insistence on having just 2 years for platform support is very short sighted.

I think if you look at their dGPU marketshare, it's probably closer to 50/50 split versus 80/20 for their whole client CPU share. With AMD if you have an old enough CPU to seriously bottleneck ARC, you could simply just swap out the CPU, a much better value proposition. AMD CPUs may be "saving" Intel's GPU.

Also, markets with upgradeability shows much more resilience in times of difficulty, because it's much cheaper. That's why notebooks drop far more during times of recession than do desktops.

The whole needing to swap entire platform to upgrade is in line with the mindset of using debt to fuel purchases. When it crashes, it will crash HARD.
 
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511

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2024
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LightningZ71 said:
I wonder if the more performant and efficient Arrow lake-U (meteor lake u refresh) has a notably improved power profile than OG Meteor Lake? It seems that it should do better in race to idle and in light load situations. Intel 3 may not be night and day better than 4, but it IS an improvement.
Click to expand...
Yes I want to see it as well btw I3 has a huge leakage improvement vs Intel 4 so it should be better rest is up to benchmark
 
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