Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+0+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[inf64]

So 10-15% bigger, and likely 10-15% better IPC (I think that RWC is ahead of Zen 4?). If so, that seems fine.

Edit: Actually if Lion Cove now is physically missing AVX-512, I would expect a bigger uplift, though again Zen 5 IPC numbers include some AVX 512 workloads, so comparison outside AVX 512 is not clear.

Edit2: Raptor Cove is only around 1-5% ahead of Zen 4 according to Spec 2017. Not sure what Zen 5 uplift is outside of AVX 512, so hard to compare to Lion Cove in lunar lake.

Raptor cove is around 2-3% faster than Zen 4, while RWC is around ~3% slower than Raptor cove (so RWC and Zen 4 are ~even). Zen 5 should end up having a slight edge over Lion Cove if both IPC projections are confirmed in reality. In AVX512 optimized stuff Zen 5 should have a big advantage though.

 

[dullard]

Double Post

 

[FlameTail]

Well yeah e-core team if they truly are progressing as good as this, should just replace the P core team and one unified core type again and bye bye hybrid arch and back to same type of core as only reason hybrid came about is because Intel P core team had cores too large and power hungry to get as many as AMD in a consumer sized socket at reasonable power draw and they needed the quantity of much weaker e-cores to be competitive in perfect parallel workloads with AMD. Otherwise Big.Little does not exist in desktop.

Conroe moment maybe in a few years and e-core team should replace P core team if things are truly progressing as rumored form e-core team?

Intel will still need an Apple-style E-core. An E-core that prioritises power efficiency above all else. This is for their laptop chips though. Desktop can use one core type.

 

[SiliconFly]

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[invisible_city]

Process leadership is 2025.

Can’t wait. Finally competition is returning. AMD has been stagnating with the lack of it. No core count progression, niche improvements focused on trendy AI crap. I’m running a Zen 3 still because all the new stuff is mid. Looking forward to upgrading to 32 core chadmont_dark + lion_cove_next_brad or zen 6 32c

 

[SiliconFly]

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[SiliconFly]

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[Hulk]

What structures in a CPU are generally referred to as being in the "front end" and which ones are in the "back end?"

 

[lightisgood]

In AVX512 optimized stuff Zen 5 should have a big advantage though.

I had read this writing in the review of Rocket Lake, 2021 and feel an irony of history now...

 

[Hitman928]

Raptor cove is around 2-3% faster than Zen 4, while RWC is around ~3% slower than Raptor cove (so RWC and Zen 4 are ~even). Zen 5 should end up having a slight edge over Lion Cove if both IPC projections are confirmed in reality. In AVX512 optimized stuff Zen 5 should have a big advantage though.

Raptor cove is slightly behind Zen 4 in IPC according to Anandtech’s SPEC results. RWC may have a slight IPC regression, there’s conflicting data on that. If we assume Intel and AMD IPC numbers for next gen exactly match SPEC, then Zen 5 should be ahead in IPC by like 7% or so. Close enough that it shouldn’t matter much in a generalized performance way.

 

[lightisgood]

Raptor cove is slightly behind Zen 4 in IPC according to Anandtech’s SPEC results. RWC may have a slight IPC regression, there’s conflicting data on that. If we assume Intel and AMD IPC numbers for next gen exactly match SPEC, then Zen 5 should be ahead in IPC by like 7% or so. Close enough that it shouldn’t matter much in a generalized performance way.

Could you tell me why you are only thinking about SPEC CPU?
GB5, GB6, PCmark and so on are major benchmark, today.
Besides, Lisa avoided cleverly telling about Zen 5's SPECint score...

 

[SiliconFly]

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[SiliconFly]

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[Hitman928]

Could you tell me why you are only thinking about SPEC CPU?
GB5, GB6, PCmark and so on are major benchmark, today.
Besides, Lisa avoided cleverly telling about Zen 5's SPECint score...

This has been discussed multiple times in just the past few weeks so I’m not going to rehash it again but in summary, SPEC is the industry standard for generalized benchmark and has been the measuring stick for IPC measurements for generations now.

AMD never includes SPEC in their consumer products announcements.

 

[invisible_city]

I had read this writing in the review of Rocket Lake, 2021 and feel an irony of history now...

Yeah. I don’t understand Intels long term plans here. I currently wish they hadn’t removed support on consumer parts, because I care about
it for ML (I have a 4090, but that’s only
24GB, and CPUs are just easier to work with). But maybe in the next 3 years their plan comes together with the move to NPUs and AVX10?

 

[FlameTail]

This matches what Exist has said for years, including that P Core tried to kill E core team and also others Cores projects at Intel. And that they were very adversarial against Jim Keller while the E core team was very helpful and accepted his guidance.

How does that dude keep making so many good predictions?

 

[lightisgood]

This has been discussed multiple times in just the past few weeks so I’m not going to rehash it again but in summary, SPEC is the industry standard for generalized benchmark and has been the measuring stick for IPC measurements for generations now.

Again, could you tell me why you are ONLY thinking about SPEC CPU?

AMD never includes SPEC in their consumer products announcements.

Okay. That is to say, Turin was not unveiled in Computex 2024.

 

[FlameTail]

Again, could you tell me why you are ONLY thinking about SPEC CPU?

Because SPEC is best.

 

[Hitman928]

Again, could you tell me why you are ONLY thinking about SPEC CPU?

I'm not saying that SPEC is the only benchmark that should ever be considered, but for comparing generalized IPC, it has been the tool used for several generations now. There are multiple reasons for this which I'm not going to rehash because we have recently discussed it for pages already.

Okay. That is to say, Turin was not unveiled in Computex 2024.

I don't understand your point. The only things AMD showed for Turin was HPC and AI related stuff compared to Xeon.

 

[Abwx]

So 10-15% bigger, and likely 10-15% better IPC (I think that RWC is ahead of Zen 4?). If so, that seems fine.

It is not, Computerbase provided a comparison at same frequency, and in all cases excepted CBR20 Zen 4 has better MT IPC than the P cores used in the 12900K, how is this possible if ST IPC was lower by 10%..?..

And before one comes for a theorical better SMT scaling of Zen 4 that s just moot, because 5% better ST IPC cant be compensated in MT by marginaly better SMT yield, let alone with 10% better ST IPC as proven by the estimation below.

If a core has say 100 ST IPC and 30% SMT yield it will perform at 130 in MT.
A core that has just 5% better IPC and only 25% SMT yield is at 131.5 in MT.
Now a core at 110 with only 25% SMT yield would do 137.5.

SMT yields of AMD and Intel are not as far apart as in this exemple, so it s obvious that Intel having better IPC is just an urban legend that doesnt pass the most basic examination, actually it s the contrary.

 

[H433x0n]

Raptor cove is around 2-3% faster than Zen 4, while RWC is around ~3% slower than Raptor cove (so RWC and Zen 4 are ~even). Zen 5 should end up having a slight edge over Lion Cove if both IPC projections are confirmed in reality. In AVX512 optimized stuff Zen 5 should have a big advantage though.

ARL-S P cores are slightly different with more L2$ and HT present (although maybe not enabled).

Based on the disparity of how transparent IPC was calculated for both - I would wait for 3rd party reviews before saying anything conclusively.

 

[lightisgood]

Intels long term plans here.

It is the ultimate goal, client 2.0.

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16021/Section%208%20%2821%29.jpg

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Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

www.anandtech.com

 

[FlameTail]

Lunar Lake has very robust memory subsystem.

8 MB GPU L2.
8 MB SLC.
136 GB/s memory bandwidth.

This is better than M3, X Elite or a certain Strix...

 

[SiliconFly]

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[invisible_city]

Lunar Lake has very robust memory subsystem.

8 MB GPU L2.
8 MB SLC.
136 GB/s memory bandwidth.

This is better than M3, X Elite or a certain Strix...

Memory bw is impressive for 15-17W