Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

		Intel Alder Lake - N	Intel Wildcat Lake	Intel Lunar Lake		Mediatek D9500
Launch Date		Q1-2023	Q2-2026 ?	Q3-2024		Q3-2025
Model		Intel N300	?	Core Ultra 7 268V		Dimensity 9500 5G
Dies		2	2	2		1
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		TSMC N3P
CPU		8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		C1 1+3+4
Threads		8	6	8		8
Max Clock		3.8 GHz	?	5 GHz
L3 Cache		6 MB	?	12 MB
TDP		7 W	Fanless ?	17 W		Fanless
Memory		64-bit LPDDR5-4800	64-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533		64-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size		16 GB	?	32 GB		24 GB ?
Bandwidth			~ 55 GB/s	136 GB/s		85.6 GB/s
GPU		UHD Graphics		Arc 140V		G1 Ultra
EU / Xe		32 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		12
Max Clock		1.25 GHz		2 GHz
NPU		NA	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		100 TOPS ?

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[adroc_thurston]

There is no architecture-specific restriction on the size of the L2 in this approach.

Yes there are, only so many ways/sets possible until power goes boom.

Zen5 may take the overall performance crown, but not by much I guess. The difference should be in single digit. I'm thinking like 5% maximum.

You're funny I'll give you that.

 

[RTX2080]

Lion Cove IPC and general architecture testing completed
Hmm... It's a long story
It is a tock.

But like Meteor Lake
I think these two core are more inclined to power
Instead of peak performance
It is also necessary to carry the latency penalty of chiplet D2D FDI.

It means that the score running, especially the desktop end, may not be obvious.
However, the overall experience (heat dissipation, noise, responsiveness, weight) of the mobile terminal will be significantly improved due to the increase in perf/w.

Even the endurance may need to be added with some oil....
I think MTL/ARL will be very good lesson

So LionCove would have major archtecture changes which would be enough to make ARL being a "tock" and more IPC but still heavily inclined to efficiency. Sounds like clock regression is inevitable. Would MLID's "25%-35% more perf on same core count" being true?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Unfortunately he made a 22 minute video that tells us absolutely nothing.

That's why I skipped through it without listening to his crap and just read the onscreen slides etc. He should become a university professor so students can get a break and sleep in his class.

 

[coercitiv]

So LionCove would have major archtecture changes which would be enough to make ARL being a "tock" and more IPC but still heavily inclined to efficiency. Sounds like clock regression is inevitable. Would MLID's "25%-35% more perf on same core count" being true?

If only Intel told us that Lion Cove would be optimized for power efficiency, then we would not have to do all this guessing games based on MLID beads and tarot cards. Like, they could have mentioned it casually somewhere, even in a leaked slide for some other product. /s

 

[igor_kavinski]

I think MTL/ARL will be very good lesson

Just poach some dang good engineers and let them take the lead instead of wasting time learning expensive lessons.

(in an exasperated Napoleon Dynamite tone) Intel, gosh you suck!

 

[tamz_msc]

Yes there are, only so many ways/sets possible until power goes boom.

So if you're going for a fatter -mont core without being as fat as -Cove, then just readjust the core count accordingly while increasing L2$, within bounds of course.

That is what the Hot Chips slide is essentially saying.

 

[igor_kavinski]

My curiosity remains as to how Intel accomplishes the magic act of surpassing the raw performance of that CPU?

I would think Intel would only be concerned about surpassing 14900KS performance with the 15900KS. So they've got until March-April 2025 for that. Plenty of time. It also lets them sell more of their 14900KS stock for those who already have a Z690/790 mobo and it just makes more sense for them to upgrade rather than change the entire platform for almost no gain in 2024.

 

[SiliconFly]

You're funny I'll give you that.

Yep. I'm hilarious.

 

[SiliconFly]

Just went thru more RU stuff. It actually appears to be on track. Attached a RU patent filed in 2020. If RU appears in Nova Lake, and if it works as advertised, it might be huge. They casually claim an increase of 3X to 4X ST perf!

Link: https://file.io/yaUy4MhWhJJR

 

[igor_kavinski]

If RU appears in Nova Lake

Nova Lake Core Ultra 9 is rumored to have LLC of 180MB. That alone is gonna be insane, coming from Intel.

Intel Nova Lake X3D CPU - Everything You Need to Know

Indie Kings brings you the latest PC game deals, Steam game bundles and game trailers!

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[maddie]

Just went thru more RU stuff. It actually appears to be on track. Attached a RU patent filed in 2020. If RU appears in Nova Lake, and if it works as advertised, it might be huge. They casually claim an increase of 3X to 4X ST perf!

Link: https://file.io/yaUy4MhWhJJR

Work started on this in 2008. We should also remember that quite a few of the majors were invested in SoftMachines before Intel bought them outright. I would also think that if the tech is feasible, we will see it in some form in other company designs.

If I remember correctly, Intel was not one of the early investors.

 

[Saylick]

Just great. Olrak put out a public Google Doc where everyone and their mothers can put in their guesses. There’s even a familiar person(s) whom we have in these forums. Now, all the Youtube “leakers” are going to be running around claiming “exclusive “ sources with this info…

ARL-S and Zen 5 Desktop Speculation

docs.google.com

 

[Hulk]

I would think Intel would only be concerned about surpassing 14900KS performance with the 15900KS. So they've got until March-April 2025 for that. Plenty of time. It also lets them sell more of their 14900KS stock for those who already have a Z690/790 mobo and it just makes more sense for them to upgrade rather than change the entire platform for almost no gain in 2024.

True. But the 13900K was more performant than the 12900KS and the 14900K was more performant than the 13900KS (same ST frequency, faster MT).

I will be of the opinion that if the "15900K" is less performant than the 14900KS then ARL was a step back in terms of performance.

 

[Joe NYC]

Just great. Olrak put out a public Google Doc where everyone and their mothers can put in their guesses. There’s even a familiar person(s) whom we have in these forums. Now, all the Youtube “leakers” are going to be running around claiming “exclusive “ sources with this info…

ARL-S and Zen 5 Desktop Speculation

docs.google.com

From the spreadsheet:
RPC - I am assuming Raptor Cove - from Raptor Lake Refresh
LNC - I am assuming Lion Cove - which is expected to be the P-core of Lunar Lake

What is the name of the P-Core in Arrow Lake? I am assuming it is not LNC. I was assuming it is is a derivative of Redwood Cove...
But then, the name of the spreadsheet tab is: "Arrow Lake-S Speculation"

I am a little bit confused here...

 

[FlameTail]

From the spreadsheet:
RPC - I am assuming Raptor Cove - from Raptor Lake Refresh
LNC - I am assuming is the Lion Cove - which is expected to be the P-core of Lunar Lake

What is the name of the P-Core in Arrow Lake? I am assuming it is not LNC. I was assuming it is is a derivative of Redwood Cove...
But then, the name of the spreadsheet tab is: "Arrow Lake-S Speculation"

I am a little bit confused here...

Arrow Lake P-core is Lion Cove aka LNC

 

[Joe NYC]

Arrow Lake P-core is Lion Cove aka LNC

Same as the P-Core of Lunar Lake?

 

[FlameTail]

Same as the P-Core of Lunar Lake?

Yes yes. If you have been following this thread, you would know that.

 

[FlameTail]

Just great. Olrak put out a public Google Doc where everyone and their mothers can put in their guesses. There’s even a familiar person(s) whom we have in these forums. Now, all the Youtube “leakers” are going to be running around claiming “exclusive “ sources with this info…

ARL-S and Zen 5 Desktop Speculation

docs.google.com

They should also add a tab for upcoming ARM cores (Cortex X5, Apple A18, Oryon Pegasus etc...)

 

[Joe NYC]

Yes yes. If you have been following this thread, you would know that.

Well, I skipped a couple of months of this thread. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[mikk]

Lenovo Yoga Pro 7 14 with Core Ultra 7 155H tested from Notebookcheck: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenov...Intel-Arc-confronts-Radeon-780M.810926.0.html

This is the fastest Meteor Lake so far on Notebookcheck. Battery life WiFi Websurfing is quite good as well, there is clearly a trend that Meteor Lake has a superior battery life over Phoenix in most of the typical laptop workloads like office, internet, video playback. This is where Raptor Lake suffered.

 

[naukkis]

Work started on this in 2008. We should also remember that quite a few of the majors were invested in SoftMachines before Intel bought them outright. I would also think that if the tech is feasible, we will see it in some form in other company designs.

If I remember correctly, Intel was not one of the early investors.

I speculated in risc-v threads that cpu designs should go towards split register file designs. VISC is nothing more than split register file core with software abstraction layer - which isn't way I see split register cpu should be made but instead it should rely on ISA that allows using split register files efficiently. CPU front-end have to see which instruction paths share which parts of registers. I really don't see that Intel could make that happening efficiently on x86 without ISA changes.

 

[dullard]

MLID viewers must be having extreme chronic high blood blood pressure due to all the salt they take...

If only someone made a thread that shows whether or not his claims were accurate. Instead, we have a thread listing that his claims aren't leaks. Oh well.

 

[SiliconFly]

If only someone made a thread that shows whether or not his claims were accurate. Instead, we have a thread listing that his claims aren't leaks. Oh well.

Well, we all like to speculate a bit, don't we?

 

[Hitman928]

Lenovo Yoga Pro 7 14 with Core Ultra 7 155H tested from Notebookcheck: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenov...Intel-Arc-confronts-Radeon-780M.810926.0.html

This is the fastest Meteor Lake so far on Notebookcheck. Battery life WiFi Websurfing is quite good as well, there is clearly a trend that Meteor Lake has a superior battery life over Phoenix in most of the typical laptop workloads like office, internet, video playback. This is where Raptor Lake suffered.

It's performance is literally within +- 1% of the average of all of the 155Hs they've tested, so it's not the fastest. . .

For battery life they only tested Wi-fi and it's good but nothing special. Not sure how you are getting the conclusion you did.

 

[Philste]

It's performance is literally within +- 1% of the average of all of the 155Hs they've tested, so it's not the fastest. . .

Gaming is 23% above their current MTL iGPU average, beating most of the tested 780Ms. CPU is normal tho.