Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[liahos1]

lol this doesnt even warrant response. I'm not trying to teach a basic mba class in investing in this thread. Maybe we can go back to talking technicals on the company's products. I get enough lopsided hate there.

 

[Glo.]

Any decent proof of this or again just ppl throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. Intel wouldn't be buying back $20bln of stock and the new director wouldn't do a $10mln dollar personal purchase under these circumstances.

You guys just make something up then chatter about it endlessly as if its already truth. When proven wrong you all are on the next rumor. track records in here are terrible.

And again if you want to chatter about this - it should be a different thread. This thread (i thought) was about the future intel products, not intel's demise based on unverified rumors.

What are mods doing?

Read about Semi-Custom APU, AMD Van Gogh, appearing in MacOS Catalina Beta 3, alongside ALL of previous AMD APU kexts.

Then read articles saying that Apple will ditch Intel.

Next, make educated conclusion about what is happening.

You will have proof for this. Stop acting as you have eaten all of the brains in the world, because clearly not knowing what Apple is doing with AMD APUs in Catalina Beta proves that the only clueless one on this topic is you.

 

[ajc9988]

lol this doesnt even warrant response. I'm not trying to teach a basic mba class in investing in this thread. Maybe we can go back to talking technicals on the company's products. I get enough lopsided hate there.

And I'm not trying to teach securities regulation. Maybe we can go back to discussing what is required of a company, fiduciary duties of executives and directors, and requirements for compliance with securities laws. Or maybe reviewing contracts for sale of intellectual property.

Your comment does not negate my points of a sale of their antenna to Apple, nor the record date on the stock to receive the distribution (dividend). It also isn't analyzing book value, which States how much the company is worth and as such whether it is worth buying or selling. My statement also didn't address looking at the competitors to see they are having issues expanding, such as TSMC production backlog, which is a saving grace for Intel.

We didn't cover a lot of things. But instead of acknowledging my limited points to you to address SOLELY two data points you pointed to as signals of health of the company, you diminish and dismiss my statement, do not address the content, and then argue from authority. All that tells me is you are conceited with a self-importance, speaking with braggadocio to try to convince people that don't know better.

I'm not saying Intel is doomed here. I have my analysis above on where I see potential issues on the CPU side in years to come. But Intel is a huge company. This isn't the end for them. But any rational person can see distress in the company. So are you rational? Or just a troll?

 

[ajc9988]

Read about Semi-Custom APU, AMD Van Gogh, appearing in MacOS Catalina Beta 3, alongside ALL of previous AMD APU kexts.

Then read articles saying that Apple will ditch Intel.

Next, make educated conclusion about what is happening.

You will have proof for this. Stop acting as you have eaten all of the brains in the world, because clearly not knowing what Apple is doing with AMD APUs in Catalina Beta proves that the only clueless one on this topic is you.

More interesting is the X86 and X86-64 and SSE2 patents expiring next year, meaning moving forward, Apple could create their own x86 chips, like China is doing.

China's joint venture with Via is working on a 32-core chiplet design on 12/14nm node and a 7nm node 8-core CPU. Via was the third company with an x86 license.

Further, it was leaked that China's government is looking into switching all computer systems over to local IP processing (meaning the via jv) in the next three years. I believe it was 20%-50%-30% for each year. If that moves to general Chinese consumers beyond the government, that could harm both Intel and AMD sales, which would be worth watching. Good job, trade war!

 

[liahos1]

Read about Semi-Custom APU, AMD Van Gogh, appearing in MacOS Catalina Beta 3, alongside ALL of previous AMD APU kexts.

Then read articles saying that Apple will ditch Intel.

Next, make educated conclusion about what is happening.

You will have proof for this. Stop acting as you have eaten all of the brains in the world, because clearly not knowing what Apple is doing with AMD APUs in Catalina Beta proves that the only clueless one on this topic is you.

I have no doubt apple is testing AMD and also testing arm. They have been rumored to be leaving intel for years. Testing != changeover. You speak as if its a certainty. It's speculation.

 

[Glo.]

I have no doubt apple is testing AMD and also testing arm. They have been rumored to be leaving intel for years. Testing != changeover. You speak as if its a certainty. It's speculation.

Let me put this in the easiest way to break down.

Apple ordered Semi-Custom APU from AMD, that is named Van Gogh. The fact that Apple has put all of previous AMD APU kexts into the OS is for simple reason.

To test the stability of software not if, but when they will switch from Intel to AMD CPUs.

Its a done deal. You may deny this how much you want.

 

[ajc9988]

I have no doubt apple is testing AMD and also testing arm. They have been rumored to be leaving intel for years. Testing != changeover. You speak as if its a certainty. It's speculation.

This I do agree with. It is speculative until more information comes out. With that said, looking at their 28-core desktop Mac pro versus AMD's 3970X or the upcoming 64-core variant, Apple looking to AMD is logical, which I think is where a lot of speculation comes from.

In mobile, Intel still has an edge, even though AMD is looking with Zen 2 APUs to increase core counts. I have little to no analysis on software optimizations for Mac users regarding core count scaling, ST performance, etc. As such, I cannot even say if examining AMD's mobile lineup is rational. Instead, I have the numbers on thermal throttle in boot camp versus their gradual slow down in their own OS, etc. So there is known unknowns that could suggest performance could be had under some conditions by utilizing a competitor.

Also, the rumor regarding a switch started around Intel's 10nm delays and shortages. I'm sure Intel isn't going to act as Nvidia did and cause a situation where Apple refuses to use their hardware.

But, just giving more context.

 

[ajc9988]

Let me put this in the easiest way to break down.

Apple ordered Semi-Custom APU from AMD, that is named Van Gogh. The fact that Apple has put all of previous AMD APU kexts into the OS is for simple reason.

To test the stability of software not if, but when they will switch from Intel to AMD CPUs.

Its a done deal. You may deny this how much you want.

That, at most, stands for the proposition of a single product line, not a whole transfer over to a new supplier. I know that is splitting hairs, but look to Microsoft's surface for a similar example. This year, it wasn't great. Next year with Zen 2, it should really close the performance gap, to a degree.

As such, Apple may be hedging on the fight being so close, that way they are ready to make moves if Intel's shortages take even longer than Dell's estimates of H2 2020 or Intel failing on the 7nm node.

But there is lots of uncertainty there until more is known.

 

[Glo.]

That, at most, stands for the proposition of a single product line, not a whole transfer over to a new supplier. I know that is splitting hairs, but look to Microsoft's surface for a similar example. This year, it wasn't great. Next year with Zen 2, it should really close the performance gap, to a degree.

As such, Apple may be hedging on the fight being so close, that way they are ready to make moves if Intel's shortages take even longer than Dell's estimates of H2 2020 or Intel failing on the 7nm node.

But there is lots of uncertainty there until more is known.

There is no uncertainty.

Its always baffling for me, how hard is it for people to see obvious things painted on the wall.

Apple NEVER does things without a reason. Why did they put Semi-Custom APU kexts into Mac OS Catalina?

Because they have engineering Samples in their labs. Why did they ordered semi-custom APU at AMD? Because they start to switch from Intel to AMD as a CPU supplier. If they wouldn't and just testing things, they would just use semi-hackintoshed hardware, and use all of previous AMD hardware WITHOUT ORDERING the design and manufacturing of Van Gogh APUs.

Van Gogh is just the start. ALL of upcoming Apple computers will be based on AMD Hardware: CPU and GPU.

Mac Mini, iMac, iMac Pro, MacBooks are due for an update in 2020. Guess when, is Apple "rumored" to start transition from Intel to AMD CPUs in their computers?

 

[liahos1]

There is no uncertainty.

Its always baffling for me, how hard is it for people to see obvious things painted on the wall.

Apple NEVER does things without a reason. Why did they put Semi-Custom APU kexts into Mac OS Catalina?

Because they have engineering Samples in their labs. Why did they ordered semi-custom APU at AMD? Because they start to switch from Intel to AMD as a CPU supplier. If they wouldn't and just testing things, they would just use semi-hackintoshed hardware, and use all of previous AMD hardware WITHOUT ORDERING the design and manufacturing of Van Gogh APUs.

Van Gogh is just the start. ALL of upcoming Apple computers will be based on AMD Hardware: CPU and GPU.

Mac Mini, iMac, iMac Pro, MacBooks are due for an update in 2020. Guess when, is Apple "rumored" to start transition from Intel to AMD CPUs in their computers?

how about they are testing the hardware. Testing does not mean they are transitioning lol. I recall their being ARM references in macos for years. And years of arm transition speculation without it happening. Again you are speculating based on certain data points. That does not mean its a certainty. And can you please take this out of the thread and start a new one if you are so certain about this?

Mods?

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Iron Woode
Super Moderator

 

[ajc9988]

There is no uncertainty.

Its always baffling for me, how hard is it for people to see obvious things painted on the wall.

Apple NEVER does things without a reason. Why did they put Semi-Custom APU kexts into Mac OS Catalina?

Because they have engineering Samples in their labs. Why did they ordered semi-custom APU at AMD? Because they start to switch from Intel to AMD as a CPU supplier. If they wouldn't and just testing things, they would just use semi-hackintoshed hardware, and use all of previous AMD hardware WITHOUT ORDERING the design and manufacturing of Van Gogh APUs.

Van Gogh is just the start. ALL of upcoming Apple computers will be based on AMD Hardware: CPU and GPU.

Mac Mini, iMac, iMac Pro, MacBooks are due for an update in 2020. Guess when, is Apple "rumored" to start transition from Intel to AMD CPUs in their computers?

Apple was rumored two to three years ago to go to arm in 2020. Rumors are rumors.

As I said, you have, at most, a single product line using that. You have zero proof of it extending beyond that.

I mentioned it making sense for their workstation line to start using AMD HEDT, but that is logical. Similar with Apple servers.

But there are some areas where making the switch already isn't justified. Also Intel will bend over backwards to maintain a substantial client.

So I don't think saying Apple will move to all AMD is justified, yet. This is something that needs monitored, not shouted as an absolute or screaming doom and gloom yet.

 

[uzzi38]

Yeah, we're not at the confirmed stage yet, or rather, we're quite far off still. However, it's just worth keeping mind, and is a real possibility. Apple will have a real reason to try and use AMD for the Macbook Pro for example next year with how strong Zen 2 will be in a 45W form factor. But it's not yet confirmed, and that's worth keeping in mind. It's somewhat likely, but not certain.

 

[DrMrLordX]

how about they are testing the hardware.

It wouldn't be in Catalina beta unless hardware validation is complete. It's at least vaguely on-topic because it means that at least certain segments of future Mac products won't be exclusively based on IceLake-U/Y or TigerLake-U. Intel can't give them more than four cores without resorting to 14nm, so Apple is making the obvious move.

 

[uzzi38]

It wouldn't be in Catalina beta unless hardware validation is complete. It's at least vaguely on-topic because it means that at least certain segments of future Mac products won't be exclusively based on IceLake-U/Y or TigerLake-U. Intel can't give them more than four cores without resorting to 14nm, so Apple is making the obvious move.

Eh, I think it's more likely Van Gogh is replacing the -H series in the Macbook Pro, in such a limited thermal design they'd surely get much better clocks out of Van Gogh then they are out of the i9s that currently make up that lineup.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Eh, I think it's more likely Van Gogh is replacing the -H series in the Macbook Pro, in such a limited thermal design they'd surely get much better clocks out of Van Gogh then they are out of the i9s that currently make up that lineup.

At a minimum. I wouldn't think Apple is thrilled with the prospect of IceLake-U or IceLake-Y either. TigerLake-U, sure. I could see them using that for lower core counts.

 

[Glo.]

how about they are testing the hardware. Testing does not mean they are transitioning lol. I recall their being ARM references in macos for years. And years of arm transition speculation without it happening. Again you are speculating based on certain data points. That does not mean its a certainty. And can you please take this out of the thread and start a new one if you are so certain about this?

Mods?

There were NEVER ARM references in MacOS. Can you stop spreading BS? Or at least stop making stuff up.

I am actually laughing when I read things, like" Testing the hardware". Yeah, testing the hardware, how it runs the software: is it stable, how much work Apple has to make it work perfectly to Apple's standards .

And before you say something stupid like: "its cheaper to go from x86 to ARM for Apple than to go from x86/Intel to x86/AMD" I will say to you - no, its not cheaper . In fact it will be way harder and more expensive.

Apple was rumored two to three years ago to go to arm in 2020. Rumors are rumors.

As I said, you have, at most, a single product line using that. You have zero proof of it extending beyond that.

I mentioned it making sense for their workstation line to start using AMD HEDT, but that is logical. Similar with Apple servers.

But there are some areas where making the switch already isn't justified. Also Intel will bend over backwards to maintain a substantial client.

So I don't think saying Apple will move to all AMD is justified, yet. This is something that needs monitored, not shouted as an absolute or screaming doom and gloom yet.

You realize that the MacOS kexts are only for GPUs and their codenames?

You cannot see CPU ID in the OS. Why would Apple order Semi-Custom APU, and then stop right there instead of completely switching their entire lineup to AMD CPUs?

Oh, and before you will say to me that its impossible to run MacOS on AMD CPU: Hackintosh community was running Hacks since day one of Ryzen CPUs. You just couldn't have iMessage, in general Apple services that you know Apple for. Why? Because they are the same ISA as Intel CPUs.

Apple uses APUs for testing the software, because the APUs, just like Intel CPUs with iGPU, are easiest way to create engineering boards. You just take a board, APU, RAM and an SSD, you stick it together and test all of it.

 

[Glo.]

Eh, I think it's more likely Van Gogh is replacing the -H series in the Macbook Pro, in such a limited thermal design they'd surely get much better clocks out of Van Gogh then they are out of the i9s that currently make up that lineup.

The reason for ordering Van Gogh is simple. Now they have SINGLE package. CPU+GPU+HBM2 stacks on one, single package. Simplifies cooling, power management, HBM2 saves tons of power(4W per stack vs 5W's per GDDR6 module(4W's vs 20W's) which allows power budget to go either to CPU or to GPU.

Its exactly what Apple wanted, and already is doing to some degree since 2018 MBP's. Power load balancing between both chips(The MacBook Pros with Vega Pro 20 GPU). With Van Gogh - it will be single chip.

 

[uzzi38]

At a minimum. I wouldn't think Apple is thrilled with the prospect of IceLake-U or IceLake-Y either. TigerLake-U, sure. I could see them using that for lower core counts.

ICL-Y is vapourware, much like the 1068G7. Technically exists, but no-one wants it. TGL-Y is what many who would be interested in ICL-Y are waiting for. ICL has some weird af problem afaik, where it's only more efficient than 14nm++(+) past 25W... which isn't very useful for mobile, as I'm sure you can imagine.

But I think the ARM Macbook rumours have some grounding. I won't claim to know, but I think there is a possibility we'll see them go that route for the Macbook Air specifically.

 

[Glo.]

But I think the ARM Macbook rumours have some grounding. I won't claim to know, but I think there is a possibility we'll see them go that route for the Macbook Air specifically.

I can see a MacBook, which would be below MacBook Air in the Apple lineup, on ARM, but I have a problem with this concept.

Every OS has to run on certain ISA. The reason why it is currently possible to run MacOS on Ryzen CPUs, with Hackintoshes is that they use the same ISA, as Intel's CPUs. Its not locked to DeviceIDs, in any way, shape or form.

People tried to run MacOS on ARM CPUs, boards, etc. It does not work at all, meaning that at current state MacOS can run ONLY on x86. Its not possible to run MacOS on any other hardware ISA.

What this tells us? That Apple to this point is not experimenting with MacOS on ARM, at least on official branch of the OS. If they would - we would see it.

All of Apple OSes: iPadOS, iOS, are custom versions of MacOS. But essentially they are completely different than MacOS.

If such computer would exist, IMO, it would use custom version of iPadOS with the desktop resembling Mac's.

And such device would be Chromebook competitor with access to Apple services, and for education. But that is it.

I repeat, if Apple would be experimenting with MacOS on ARM, we would be seeing ISa in the OS. But there are no examples of it, even if people experimented with this idea. Because CPUs have to execute even basic commands from certain ISA's.

There is nothing in MacOS, for it.

 

[LikeLinus]

Forget about future Intel based Macs. Its a done deal that was in the making for past 5 years.

There is a good reason why Apple is testing Van Gogh, Semi-Custom APU, that they have ordered the design from AMD.

Weird, I had not heard they ordered a design from AMD and this was a done deal. Do you have a article on what they ordered and the approximate release date?

 

[LikeLinus]

There were NEVER ARM references in MacOS. Can you stop spreading BS? Or at least stop making stuff up.

Apple Adds ARM Support to macOS Sierra Kernel

Apple has added support for an ARM chip to the macOS Sierra 10.12 kernel.

www.iclarified.com

 

[Glo.]

Weird, I had not heard they ordered a design from AMD and this was a done deal. Do you have a article on what they ordered and the approximate release date?

What is AMD Van Gogh, then? Is it on any roadmap from AMD? Why would be there any release date if it is Semi-Custom chip?

Did MS and Sony ever announced specific dates of release of their Semi-Custom chips, ordered from AMD?

 

[LikeLinus]

What is AMD Van Gogh, then? Is it on any roadmap from AMD? Why would be there any release date if it is Semi-Custom chip?

Did MS and Sony ever announced specific dates of release of their Semi-Custom chips, ordered from AMD?

So you're just making up that it's a "done deal" and you have no articles regarding Apple placing an order for a new chip design with AMD? You never answered the questions. It's a yes or no.

 

[Glo.]

Apple Adds ARM Support to macOS Sierra Kernel

Apple has added support for an ARM chip to the macOS Sierra 10.12 kernel.

www.iclarified.com

This is for, drum roll, T2 chips.

Can you run the OS on this chip?

No. There are no traces of ARM ISA in the MacOS. Show me ONE scenario where you can run the OS on this chip. OR ANY ARM CPU.

So you're just making up that it's a "done deal" and you have no articles regarding Apple placing an order for a new chip design with AMD? You never answered the questions. It's a yes or no.

Again, show me a roadmap where Van Gogh exists?

Then I will agree that its not meaningful. If you can't Will you agree that it is a done deal, and Van Gogh is a Semi-Custom product?

 

[LikeLinus]

Apple releases kernel source code tuned for mobile chips

Ever since the first version of OS X, Apple has regularly released the kernel source code for Macs. In theory, you could learn from it or even build your own projects from it. For iOS, though? Not so simple. Even if you had source code, it wouldn't matter much unless it was optimized for the...

www.engadget.com

"The company has quietly posted ARM-friendly source code for the XNU kernels used in iOS and macOS."

"Moreover, while the presence of ARM-based Mac code is bound to raise eyebrows, this doesn't mean that you're about to see a MacBook with an A11 Bionic chip inside."

"Apple has a long history of writing code for other architectures "just in case" (the PowerPC-to-Intel transition happened quickly because Apple already had code waiting in the wings), so it might never make the switch. "

Meaning, they could be testing, but that does not mean it's a forgone conclusion. Unless you have something proving different.