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Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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You argument "changing it daily" doesn't make sense.
An example of what I am talking about is they announced the 28W Icelake U and it never even got on Ark. Not to mention Icelake Y doesn't appear to really exist either.

As to why 28W only, I gave you one reason about the OEMs not wanting the SKU clutter. Another theory would be that they are scared of Renoir and they want any comparision to be as highly clocked as possible.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Why is it so important whether Intel intends to make a full lineup of TGL-U or not?!
It's shaping up to be a pretty good product. That implies that yields on 2c and 4c dice are getting better for 10nm++. Intel should be able to offer more of these chips to the market, and they should be preferable to Rocket Lake at least on a core-per-core basis.
 

mikk

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May 15, 2012
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An example of what I am talking about is they announced the 28W Icelake U and it never even got on Ark. Not to mention Icelake Y doesn't appear to really exist either.

Because 15W is Intels standard, ICL-U is not the first ULV generation without 28W SKU options, Whiskey Lake for example.
 

coercitiv

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Jan 24, 2014
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It's shaping up to be a pretty good product. That implies that yields on 2c and 4c dice are getting better for 10nm++. Intel should be able to offer more of these chips to the market, and they should be preferable to Rocket Lake at least on a core-per-core basis.
Good/Great product? YES. Widely available? I'd love to see that.
 

FriedMoose

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Dec 14, 2019
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Translated comments from the leaker:

JZWSVIC :After CML-H is TGL-H

JZWSVIC : The low-voltage MacBook can use TGL-U, and the standard version of the pro version is replaced by AMD.

JZWSVIC : TGL nuclear display is twice that of gen11, AMD nuclear display may not beat TGL

JZWSVIC : Frequency is high, IPC is about 5-8%


 

FriedMoose

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Dec 14, 2019
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If you assume the single core score at 28W is at 4.3GHz and these tests scale reasonably linearly with frequency, then the 15W test is running around 3.9 GHz. Assuming scaling is less than perfect 3.7-3.8GHz sounds right.
 
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JasonLD

Senior member
Aug 22, 2017
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Apple could revive the Macbook, but it would use Y parts. The MBP using AMD would be a huge blow to Intel.
I don't think Apple would bother using AMD part when they are about to make a switch to their own ARM based SoCs.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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I don't think Apple would bother using AMD part when they are about to make a switch to their own ARM based SoCs.
I would normally agree but between the 14 nm shortage and the 10 nm bad yield it does seem plausible they would turn to AMD.

The ARM transition might not start until 2021.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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JZWSVIC : TGL nuclear display is twice that of gen11, AMD nuclear display may not beat TGL

JZWSVIC : Frequency is high, IPC is about 5-8%
I'm not seeing this. The leak had 28W version at 4.3GHz ST Turbo. The gains are higher as the 28W is outperforming Icelake by 30%.

Also, if you look at tests of Icelake 15W and 25W, there's no difference in ST performance.

Apple could revive the Macbook, but it would use Y parts. The MBP using AMD would be a huge blow to Intel.
The issue is that while their U chips are good, their H chips are not. If Renoir has 8 cores, then its an upgrade over Cometlake H parts. And there's the graphics. UHD 620 vs Vega on 7nm.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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The issue is that while their U chips are good, their H chips are not. If Renoir has 8 cores, then its an upgrade over Cometlake H parts. And there's the graphics. UHD 620 vs Vega on 7nm.
The 13" MBP uses 28 W U right now. The 16" uses H.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
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I'm not seeing this. The leak had 28W version at 4.3GHz ST Turbo. The gains are higher as the 28W is outperforming Icelake by 30%.

Also, if you look at tests of Icelake 15W and 25W, there's no difference in ST performance.

Is SPEC Speed purely singlethreaded and fixed to 1 core?
 

JasonLD

Senior member
Aug 22, 2017
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I would normally agree but between the 14 nm shortage and the 10 nm bad yield it does seem plausible they would turn to AMD.

The ARM transition might not start until 2021.
Apple doesn't seem to be affected by Intel shortages.
Apple just recently updated their MBP so it next update isn't really due until later next year, that would give potential AMD model less than a year of shelf life even if ARM transition starts in 2021.
And Potential AMD part that would be suitable for MBP will probably going to be 8 cores at the highest so I don't think the switch will be worth it even for a quick band-aid solution.
 

IntelUser2000

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Oct 14, 2003
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The 13" MBP uses 28 W U right now. The 16" uses H.
So they can use Tigerlake for 13 inch and Renoir for 16 inch. Their bigger Macbook Pros use huge batteries, which is part of the reason even with the H chips the battery life is pretty good. It'll be an upgrade over Coffeelake H parts in nearly every single way.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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So they can use Tigerlake for 13 inch and Renoir for 16 inch. Their bigger Macbook Pros use huge batteries, which is part of the reason even with the H chips the battery life is pretty good. It'll be an upgrade over Coffeelake H parts in nearly every single way.
Have to think it would either be Renior on both or Renoir on the 13" and Comet on the 16". More likely the latter.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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Have to think it would either be Renior on both or Renoir on the 13" and Comet on the 16". More likely the latter.
Why? Tigerlake is far better than Comet on the smaller system, and Renoir, even if it falls behind Tigerlake in battery life and single threaded performance, will perform better on productivity and rendering workloads due to twice the cores plus it can easily replace Cometlake for the 16-inch.

The graphics will be a downgrade if you use Cometlake on the 13-inch as the predecessor uses Iris graphics with eDRAM.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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The graphics will be a downgrade if you use Cometlake on the 13-inch as the predecessor uses Iris graphics with eDRAM.
But I'm not saying Comet on the 13", I'm saying Renoir.

The current 16" comes with Coffee Lake H, so replace that with either Renoir H or Comet H.
 

IntelUser2000

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But I'm not saying Comet on the 13", I'm saying Renoir.

The current 16" comes with Coffee Lake H, so replace that with either Renoir H or Comet H.
That's also possible. My guesses were based on how the lineup is now, with the U part on the 13-inch and H on the 16-inch. 13-inch is portable enough that some sacrifices on the performance end is perfectly acceptable.

Is SPEC Speed purely singlethreaded and fixed to 1 core?
You are right, it may not be. Speed allows using auto parallel results. Auto parallelism isn't the same as _Rate though. Going from 1 to 4 cores will get you more than 3x gains in _rate, which reflects multi-threaded workloads. Auto parallel might get you 40% for example.

That would better explain the large 10% gap between the 15W and 28W in Speed tests, because it might be not single threaded, but "low threaded" workload.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Good/Great product? YES. Widely available? I'd love to see that.
Ditto. Intel can't keep screwing things up forever. It's still going to be pretty restricted on core count - meaning 6c and 8c 10nm parts for the desktop may still not materialize in the same timeframe. But it does appear that Intel has 4c parts licked on 10nm. Where they go from there is anyone's guess.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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It's still going to be pretty restricted on core count - meaning 6c and 8c 10nm parts for the desktop may still not materialize in the same timeframe.
Yea maybe never. Rocketlake looks to be a 14nm product, at least for the CPU, if not for GPU/IO.
 
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Kaloi48

Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Translated comments from the leaker:
...
JZWSVIC : The low-voltage MacBook can use TGL-U, and the standard version of the pro version is replaced by AMD.
...
The Google translation isn't accurate. What JZWSVIC actually said was that even if the standard version of the pro version is replaced by AMD, there will be no significant improvement.

He just responded to the AMD/MacBook rumour mentioned by the previous poster.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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The Google translation isn't accurate. What JZWSVIC actually said was that even if the standard version of the pro version is replaced by AMD, there will be no significant improvement.

He just responded to the AMD/MacBook rumour mentioned by the previous poster.
That's fair, but it would make sense to bring in AMD if they are not ready yet to convert to their own processors. Apple isn't Dell or Lenovo where they have 50 different models and can hide behind Whiskey and Comet, Intel would have to be able to supply a lot of Tiger Lake to them. And the 13" MBP is Apple's best seller.
 
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Ajay

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Jan 8, 2001
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Apple doesn't seem to be affected by Intel shortages.
Apple just recently updated their MBP so it next update isn't really due until later next year, that would give potential AMD model less than a year of shelf life even if ARM transition starts in 2021.
And Potential AMD part that would be suitable for MBP will probably going to be 8 cores at the highest so I don't think the switch will be worth it even for a quick band-aid solution.
If Apple inserts AMD to the product stack, then it’s pretty much assures that the rumored ARM transition is further out. Another item that comes to mind is that in addition to x86 to ARM translation, Apple will release a new ARM target in Xcode tailored to laptops. 1,000s of developers will have their hands on these new tools. Leaks will become more substantial as Apple won’t be able to enforce the strict silence that they do internally (and even then some stuff leaks). We will know when ARM is coming to laptops well before products arrive. IMO.

With AMD's ascendancy and TSMC's aggressive roadmap and stellar execution - I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple moved towards AMD on a larger scale over the next couple of years. I’m sure AMD would be more than happy to even develop a custom SoC for Apple's laptops to gain a high prestige client. Apple might even be willing to kickstart such a project with some upfront cash. All speculation of course.
 

JasonLD

Senior member
Aug 22, 2017
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If Apple inserts AMD to the product stack, then it’s pretty much assures that the rumored ARM transition is further out. Another item that comes to mind is that in addition to x86 to ARM translation, Apple will release a new ARM target in Xcode tailored to laptops. 1,000s of developers will have their hands on these new tools. Leaks will become more substantial as Apple won’t be able to enforce the strict silence that they do internally (and even then some stuff leaks). We will know when ARM is coming to laptops well before products arrive. IMO.

With AMD's ascendancy and TSMC's aggressive roadmap and stellar execution - I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple moved towards AMD on a larger scale over the next couple of years. I’m sure AMD would be more than happy to even develop a custom SoC for Apple's laptops to gain a high prestige client. Apple might even be willing to kickstart such a project with some upfront cash. All speculation of course.
If there weren't so many rumors or reports about Apple transitioning to their own ARM based solution starting in 2020 (or 2021), I would have said it is strongly possible for Apple to use custom AMD solution for their Macbooks. When Apple switches CPU vendor, i would assume that Apple should be committed for at least 5 years when it decides to do so. I can't imagine Apple switching for AMD for short term stop gap solution before changing to one of their own A based ARM solution. If Apple indeed starts using AMD for their macbooks or their other product line, then I would assume they might have scrapped or delayed ARM transition for several years at least.
 

Glo.

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Apr 25, 2015
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If there weren't so many rumors or reports about Apple transitioning to their own ARM based solution starting in 2020 (or 2021), I would have said it is strongly possible for Apple to use custom AMD solution for their Macbooks. When Apple switches CPU vendor, i would assume that Apple should be committed for at least 5 years when it decides to do so. I can't imagine Apple switching for AMD for short term stop gap solution before changing to one of their own A based ARM solution. If Apple indeed starts using AMD for their macbooks or their other product line, then I would assume they might have scrapped or delayed ARM transition for several years at least.
There are NO rumors about Apple shifting to ARM, but all of the rumors said that Apple will shift to their OWN, designed by them CPUs. The matter of ARM was completely made up by community built around over Apple.

Currently, in Mac OS Catalina Beta we have ALL of AMD APUs available. Including Renoir, and Semi-Custom Van Gogh, which does not appear on any AMD roadmap. And it is first time, ever, we have AMD APU kexts in any Apple OS. What this means?

Apple needs an OS that they can test stability of AMD based machines and software, while working on next gen AMD CPU based product. That is why they have put those previous generation APU kexts in the OS, in the first place.

So yes, if Apple ditches Intel, and they do, they are switching over to AMD for CPUs. If Apple will ever use ARM in their laptops, or any computer, it will be for Chromebook replacement(education) and access to their services, extremely basic tasks.

ARM is not ready and never will be ready to offload workloads from Workstation computers, and even semi-pro machines, like MacBook Pro.

In the first paragraph I said that Apple will switch to their own, designed by them APUs. Semi-Custom can also be considered this way, that Apple designed those CPUs. The wafers will be ordered by Apple from TSMC.

I will repeat one more time. Apple is not shifting away from x86 on their computers. They are just ditching Intel. In 2020 we will see first AMD CPU based Apple computer, alongside ARM Chromebook competitor from Apple.
MacBook - ARM.
MacBook Air - x86.
MacBook Pro - x86.
 

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