Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[jpiniero]

Where do you see 28W?

Rumor is all the Tiger U parts are intended to be 28 W. OEMs can of course change PL1 and PL2 to whatever they want.

 

[mikk]

That's the rumor that all the Tiger U parts are intended to be 28 W.

This is not true and absolutely makes no sense that TGL-U is limited to 28W. The rumors and Intels own data says TGL-Y 9W and TGL-U 15/28W just like Icelake . And pretty sure the standard TDP for TGL-U will be 15W. There is no 28W mention in this tweet.

 

[jpiniero]

This is not true and absolutely makes no sense that TGL-U is limited to 28W. The rumors and Intels own data says TGL-Y 9W and TGL-U 15/28W just like Icelake . And pretty sure the standard TDP for TGL-U will be 15W. There is no 28W mention in this tweet.

That's the rumor. Intel's roadmap is changing often so we'll have to see what actually comes out. But it does paint the picture that Tiger's availability will be limited compared to Comet LPDDR4/Rocket.

Edit: One scenario that I can think of is that OEMs got mad about the bunching and so Intel is keeping Comet LPDDR4 at 15 W and Tiger at 28 W because Comet will be the vast majority of the volume.

 

[mikk]

That's the rumor. Intel's roadmap is changing often so we'll have to see what actually comes out. But it does paint the picture that Tiger's availability will be limited compared to Comet LPDDR4/Rocket.

What rumor? Link it. You need a very good source to back it up. It's insane how much nonsense there is floating around lately.

 

[jpiniero]

What rumor? Link it. You need a very good source to back it up. It's insane how much nonsense there is floating around lately.

Too lazy. Besides, Intel's roadmap as I mention is changing daily so they could change their mind.

 

[mikk]

Too lazy. Besides, Intel's roadmap as I mention is changing daily so they are liable to change their mind.

As expected there is nothing, that is made up out of thin air. There is only one TDP leak from a trustable known source. It's from sharkbay, he claims 9W for TGL-U and 15/28W for TGL-U. It would be crazy if TGL-U starts at 28W, all the current 15W optimized chassis and cooling devices would be trash for TGL-U, it makes zero sense. You need to be more serious and logical sometimes.

 

[jpiniero]

As expected there is nothing, that is made up out of thin air. There is only one TDP leak from a trustable known source. It's from sharkbay, he claims 9W for TGL-U and 15/28W for TGL-U. It would be crazy if TGL-U starts at 28W, all the current 15W optimized chassis and cooling devices would be trash for TGL-U, it makes zero sense. You need to be more serious and logical sometimes.

That's what Comet LPDDR4 is for.

 

[IntelUser2000]

It does seem like 10nm++ clock is improving at least.

So if you combine it with earlier info, the ES has 2.7GHz base, and 4.3GHz Turbo.

The 28W 1068G7 was 2.3/4.1. Base clocks improving indicate SoC level power has improved considerably.

In the Kabylake generation, there's only a 100MHz difference between a 15W and a 28W part. 4.2GHz top ST boost and better sustained performance in multi-thread could get us quite decent gains.

That's what Comet LPDDR4 is for.

Arizona Fab will be coming online about now for 10nm. You'll see all TDP variants announced. This time, -Y will actually exist.

I think though manufacturers will continue to ignore 28W parts and just use cTDPup of 15W ones.

 

[jpiniero]

This time, -Y will actually exist.

Come to think of it, it would explain why Icelake Y and 28 W are MIA... they are quickly being replaced by Tiger Lake and OEMs decided to not bother.

 

[FriedMoose]

Come to think of it, it would explain why Icelake Y and 28 W are MIA... they are quickly being replaced by Tiger Lake and OEMs decided to not bother.

Tiger Lake supposedly has much better performance at low wattage than Ice Lake:

Jack: The first major assumption is that Tiger Lake is a more powerful processor than Ice Lake. Tiger Lake uses the second-generation 10nm process, which improves performance.In addition, since it incorporates a CPU and GPU with an improved architecture from Ice Lake, it can demonstrate higher performance than Ice Lake .

The other is for Ice Lake Y. In our internal testing, we found that the GPU on Ice Lake Y would not provide enough GPU performance unless TDP was set to 25W. The ONE-GX's 7-inch size cannot fit the TDP 25W, making Ice Lake unrealistic.

There is also the issue of the supply of Ice Lake Y. Ice Lake U is widely available, but Ice Lake Y is currently only available to Apple and Microsoft, and not even major companies like Lenovo. In the first place, the CPU was not available, so the adoption of ONE-GX was forgotten.

【特集】 7型ゲーミングUMPC「ONE-GX」が、Ice Lake採用をスキップするワケ ～ONE-NETBOOKの社長と副社長にインタビュー

　深センのONE-NETBOOK Technologyが、このところUMPCの新製品開発と日本市場に力を入れている。5月に国内の正規代理店として株式会社テックワンとパートナーシップを結んで以来、7型の「OneMix 2S」、「OneMix 1S」、8.4型の「OneMix 3」などを矢継ぎ早に投入。そして今回、世界初となるComet Lake Y搭載UMPC「OneMix 3 Pro」を、日本語キーボードの特別仕様で発売するとともに、2020年には夏頃には7型のゲーミングUMPC「ONE-GX」を投入することを予告した。

pc.watch.impress.co.jp

 

[jpiniero]

Ice Lake Y is currently only available to Apple and Microsoft

Possible that Intel only offered it to those two, but MS clearly isn't using going to use it and Apple could in theory refresh the Air with it but likely won't.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Come to think of it, it would explain why Icelake Y and 28 W are MIA... they are quickly being replaced by Tiger Lake and OEMs decided to not bother.

The problem with the Y chip is that sometimes its not enough of a differentiator. It's using the same platform so the battery life is not any better, and it doesn't save a ton of board space. -Y is for 13-inch fanless systems. Look at what Dell did with the XPS 13 2-in-1. They went from Kabylake-Y to Icelake-U.

It's different from Lakefield which enables whole new category of systems.

Possible that Intel only offered it to those two, but MS clearly isn't using going to use it and Apple could in theory refresh the Air with it but likely won't.

We could still see them, because some systems have long design cycles. With desktops, you can build the system on Day 1 of launch. But laptops aren't like that. Those that require more work take even longer time. It's the same reason why Lakefield is launched already but systems won't show for several more months.

I could maybe see a Surface Go with it.

 

[jpiniero]

I wouldn't really call Lakefield launched. The impression I am getting is that they are in the process of producing the first batch of final production chips but haven't sent it to OEMs yet.

Maybe they will launch Lakefield at CES.

 

[csbin]

It does seem like 10nm++ clock is improving at least.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1208799232427036673

TGL-U ES2

4.3GHz single core Turbo

4GHz all core Turbo

 

[csbin]

Where do you see 28W?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1209051526607429635

 

[csbin]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1209051526607429635

TGL-U ES2
4.3GHz single core Turbo
4GHz all core Turbo

VS 1065G7@15W

IPC up to 5-8%

 

[mikk]

So there is TGL-U 15/28 as I said. The gains are really big in this SPEC test and needless to say an ES2 sample isn't necessarily running final clock speeds, even though I have to take the claims with a pinch of salt. Or does anyone know if this is a known trustable leaker? I believe these gains are doable because 10nm+ on Icelake is really low clocked and underwhelmimg, they potentially could make big gains with 10nm++ and Willow Cove.

 

[uzzi38]

Where do you see 28W?

Does it matter if it is or it isn't when it can't achieve the 4.3GHz ST boost at 15W?

The TDP is mostly irrelevant.

 

[uzzi38]

As expected there is nothing, that is made up out of thin air. There is only one TDP leak from a trustable known source. It's from sharkbay, he claims 9W for TGL-U and 15/28W for TGL-U. It would be crazy if TGL-U starts at 28W, all the current 15W optimized chassis and cooling devices would be trash for TGL-U, it makes zero sense. You need to be more serious and logical sometimes.

He did not claim 15W for ICL-U. Sharkbay only listed 28W. The 28W ICL-U exists, and yet he did not mention it (ICL-U listed 4c@15W only), whereas he did list 4c@28W for -U and that alone.

The 28W ICL-U exists, and he did not mention it. Take a guess why.

 

[FriedMoose]

Does it matter if it is or it isn't when it can't achieve the 4.3GHz ST boost at 15W?

The TDP is mostly irrelevant.

So they're both at 15W and neither can sustain turbo clocks under those constraints. Sounds like a laptop CPU.

 

[jpiniero]

So there is TGL-U 15/28 as I said. The gains are really big in this SPEC test and needless to say an ES2 sample isn't necessarily running final clock speeds, even though I have to take the claims with a pinch of salt. Or does anyone know if this is a known trustable leaker? I believe these gains are doable because 10nm+ on Icelake is really low clocked and underwhelmimg, they potentially could make big gains with 10nm++ and Willow Cove.

That ES is a 28 W model. The person is claiming they set the (TDP? PL2?) to 15 to add to the comparison.

 

[mikk]

That ES is a 28 W model. The person is claiming they set the (TDP? PL2?) to 15 to add to the comparison.

You still believe in TGL being 28W only? Really?

 

[jpiniero]

You still believe in TGL being 28W only? Really?

As I am saying, Intel's roadmap is changing daily so anything is possible. But that ES is definitely 28 W, no question.

 

[mikk]

But that ES is definitely 28 W, no question.

Do you have a better translation than google?

TGL-U ES2, single-threaded 4.3GHz, full-core 4GHz, 1065G7 single-threaded 3.9GHz full-core 3.5GHz, with the same power consumption of 15 watts, the single instance performance of spec06 / 17 is close to 20% (15-18%), if Set TDP at 28 watts, a single instance will lead more.

From this translation I wouldn't claim definitely 28 W, it's only clear to me that he did run the test with 15W as well as 28W. If the standard is 15 or 28 is completely unclear based on this translation. I mean this is an ES2 (Alpha 2)model, not sure if there even is a default TDP on this.


Oh and by the way Intels Roadmap for the ULV segment is extremely solid when it comes to the TDP. 15W is standard for so many years with 28W as an upper option for a few SKUs, it's not like they are changing the TDP every generation. And OEMs have the option to operate 15W models with 25W using cTDP up. You argument "changing it daily" doesn't make sense.

 

[coercitiv]

Why is it so important whether Intel intends to make a full lineup of TGL-U or not?!

The bread and butter of Intel's near-future mobile lineup is RKL, and TGL, just like ICL, is a headline grabber.