India - Pakistan Crisis

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palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
It's not only the taliban that doesn't want the people educated to challenge them. The military; bureaucrats, corrupt politicians, nobody wants us to be educated. There's no point pretending to be in control. I'll let the political parties fight it out - with guns (like they do).

I still don't see any chance of the taliban taking over. Traitor Zardari's comments are just to milk money out of USA. Karachi City - The government claims the taliban's presence. I see nothing. There are girls who roam about with what I'd consider indecent exposure and nobody says anything let alone touching schools. It's all a game. No Taliban is coming here. The political parties are as well armed as the taliban even if the army was miraculously defeated for the taliban to conquer.

The max the Taliban can get is the NWFP. If the broke away I'd say good riddance. They are a burden on us in every way. I maybe called a traitor for saying that; but it's the truth. In fact I'd be happy to join any sort of Indian federation provided we have full autonomy except in defense and foreign relations.
Most of the high profile arrests of AQ terrorists have been made in some of Pakistan's largest cities; including Peshawar, Islamabad, and Karachi. In fact, at this point, the city of Peshawar is almost completely controlled by the Taliban and AQ.

What city is next? I'm guessing Quetta and/or Islamabad...
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
....

The max the Taliban can get is the NWFP. If the broke away I'd say good riddance. They are a burden on us in every way. I maybe called a traitor for saying that; but it's the truth. In fact I'd be happy to join any sort of Indian federation provided we have full autonomy except in defense and foreign relations.

Wow, TGB willing to sleep with the enemy! What's the world coming to?
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: palehorse

Most of the high profile arrests of AQ terrorists have been made in some of Pakistan's largest cities; including Peshawar, Islamabad, and Karachi. In fact, at this point, the city of Peshawar is almost completely controlled by the Taliban and AQ.

What city is next? I'm guessing Quetta and/or Islamabad...

Lol that's complete BS. Utter crap. Stop exaggerating. They wouldn't dare go into Balochi strongholds. If you thought the Pakhtuns were fierce wait until you get to Balochistan. Your stupidity is clear. You've just looked at a Pak-Afghan map and listed all areas close to the border as vulnerable to the Taliban.
 

Whitecloak

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
6,074
2
0
Originally posted by: tvarad
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
....

The max the Taliban can get is the NWFP. If the broke away I'd say good riddance. They are a burden on us in every way. I maybe called a traitor for saying that; but it's the truth. In fact I'd be happy to join any sort of Indian federation provided we have full autonomy except in defense and foreign relations.

Wow, TGB willing to sleep with the enemy! What's the world coming to?

yea, that surprised me too.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Whitecloak
Originally posted by: tvarad
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
....

The max the Taliban can get is the NWFP. If the broke away I'd say good riddance. They are a burden on us in every way. I maybe called a traitor for saying that; but it's the truth. In fact I'd be happy to join any sort of Indian federation provided we have full autonomy except in defense and foreign relations.

Wow, TGB willing to sleep with the enemy! What's the world coming to?

yea, that surprised me too.

I've never been against an Indian federation. What I'm against is the Indian policy of anti-Pakistanism to forward its own agendas. But it has too be a lose federation. There's no point fighting against one another. If there is an alliance we have the potential to become one of the greatest regions of the world. Too bad everybody here has wasted 65 years fighting amongst themselves. An alliance bonded by race, culture and ethnicity is stronger than fake alliances like ours with China. Again that's my opinion and doesn't represent the average Pakistani.
 

Whitecloak

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
6,074
2
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Whitecloak
Originally posted by: tvarad
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
....

The max the Taliban can get is the NWFP. If the broke away I'd say good riddance. They are a burden on us in every way. I maybe called a traitor for saying that; but it's the truth. In fact I'd be happy to join any sort of Indian federation provided we have full autonomy except in defense and foreign relations.

Wow, TGB willing to sleep with the enemy! What's the world coming to?

yea, that surprised me too.

I've never been against an Indian federation. What I'm against is the Indian policy of anti-Pakistanism to forward its own agendas. But it has too be a lose federation. There's no point fighting against one another. If there is an alliance we have the potential to become one of the greatest regions of the world. Too bad everybody here has wasted 65 years fighting amongst themselves. An alliance bonded by race, culture and ethnicity is stronger than fake alliances like ours with China. Again that's my opinion and doesn't represent the average Pakistani.

why would India want to form a federation? What's in it for India?
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Whitecloak
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Whitecloak
Originally posted by: tvarad
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
....

The max the Taliban can get is the NWFP. If the broke away I'd say good riddance. They are a burden on us in every way. I maybe called a traitor for saying that; but it's the truth. In fact I'd be happy to join any sort of Indian federation provided we have full autonomy except in defense and foreign relations.

Wow, TGB willing to sleep with the enemy! What's the world coming to?

yea, that surprised me too.

I've never been against an Indian federation. What I'm against is the Indian policy of anti-Pakistanism to forward its own agendas. But it has too be a lose federation. There's no point fighting against one another. If there is an alliance we have the potential to become one of the greatest regions of the world. Too bad everybody here has wasted 65 years fighting amongst themselves. An alliance bonded by race, culture and ethnicity is stronger than fake alliances like ours with China. Again that's my opinion and doesn't represent the average Pakistani.

why would India want to form a federation? What's in it for India?

peace and economic development. The recently discovered $20 trillion worth of coal could help fuel its economy for decades.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: palehorse

Most of the high profile arrests of AQ terrorists have been made in some of Pakistan's largest cities; including Peshawar, Islamabad, and Karachi. In fact, at this point, the city of Peshawar is almost completely controlled by the Taliban and AQ.

What city is next? I'm guessing Quetta and/or Islamabad...

Lol that's complete BS. Utter crap. Stop exaggerating. They wouldn't dare go into Balochi strongholds. If you thought the Pakhtuns were fierce wait until you get to Balochistan. Your stupidity is clear. You've just looked at a Pak-Afghan map and listed all areas close to the border as vulnerable to the Taliban.

Keep telling yourself that... if it helps you sleep better at night. :roll:

Many Taliban leaders walk freely and without fear throughout much of Peshawar, and all of the surrounding areas.

Care to comment on the arrests of most high-profile AQ members taking place within Pakistan's largest cities?
 

nixium

Senior member
Aug 25, 2008
919
3
81
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Whitecloak
Originally posted by: tvarad
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
....

The max the Taliban can get is the NWFP. If the broke away I'd say good riddance. They are a burden on us in every way. I maybe called a traitor for saying that; but it's the truth. In fact I'd be happy to join any sort of Indian federation provided we have full autonomy except in defense and foreign relations.

Wow, TGB willing to sleep with the enemy! What's the world coming to?

yea, that surprised me too.

I've never been against an Indian federation. What I'm against is the Indian policy of anti-Pakistanism to forward its own agendas. But it has too be a lose federation. There's no point fighting against one another. If there is an alliance we have the potential to become one of the greatest regions of the world. Too bad everybody here has wasted 65 years fighting amongst themselves. An alliance bonded by race, culture and ethnicity is stronger than fake alliances like ours with China. Again that's my opinion and doesn't represent the average Pakistani.

:thumbsup:

I wish more Pakistanis (and Indians) had this thought. This war being fought is meaningless. We should make peace over Kashmir, break the back of any terrorist movement, and form an alliance which will be a counterbalance to China's influence in Asia. You CANNOT trust the Chinese government.

How many centuries has the subcontinent been suffering? There needs to be an end to the savagery and bloodlust. If only something like this can happen in our lifetimes.
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
0
Originally posted by: nixium
......

:thumbsup:

I wish more Pakistanis (and Indians) had this thought. This war being fought is meaningless. We should make peace over Kashmir, break the back of any terrorist movement, and form an alliance which will be a counterbalance to China's influence in Asia. You CANNOT trust the Chinese government.

How many centuries has the subcontinent been suffering? There needs to be an end to the savagery and bloodlust. If only something like this can happen in our lifetimes.

The only reason Pakistanis are suddenly turning peaceniks is because realization is dawning on them that they're about to be consumed by the very monsters they created and let loose on the world at large and the region in particular. I would like to think that we can all sing "peace, love and happiness" and bring everything to a close, but I've got a feeling it's going to be a little tougher than that.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
EXHIBIT A:

Islamic Law to Be Imposed in Parts of Pakistan

Excerpt:
PESHAWAR, Pakistan ? The government agreed to impose Islamic law and suspend a military offensive across a large swath of northwest Pakistan on Monday in concessions aimed at pacifying a spreading Taliban insurgency there.
...the former tourist haven is supposed to be under full government control and lies less than 100 miles (160 kilometers) from the provincial capital, Islamabad.
...the United States, Pakistan and India face an "an enemy which poses direct threats to our leadership, our capitals and our people."

So... what were you saying TGB?

We all get to watch as your cowardly military and inept government continue to cave in to terrorist demands and give up control of one city after another...

swell.
 

nixium

Senior member
Aug 25, 2008
919
3
81
Originally posted by: tvarad
Originally posted by: nixium
......

:thumbsup:

I wish more Pakistanis (and Indians) had this thought. This war being fought is meaningless. We should make peace over Kashmir, break the back of any terrorist movement, and form an alliance which will be a counterbalance to China's influence in Asia. You CANNOT trust the Chinese government.

How many centuries has the subcontinent been suffering? There needs to be an end to the savagery and bloodlust. If only something like this can happen in our lifetimes.

The only reason Pakistanis are suddenly turning peaceniks is because realization is dawning on them that they're about to be consumed by the very monsters they created and let loose on the world at large and the region in particular. I would like to think that we can all sing "peace, love and happiness" and bring everything to a close, but I've got a feeling it's going to be a little tougher than that.

True, which is why I think it won't happen in our lifetimes. Besides, TGB himself admitted his is not the representative Pakistani thought.

There's far too much bitterness, mistrust and hatred for a meaningful peace anytime soon, but we can always hope.
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
EXHIBIT A:

Islamic Law to Be Imposed in Parts of Pakistan

Excerpt:
PESHAWAR, Pakistan ? The government agreed to impose Islamic law and suspend a military offensive across a large swath of northwest Pakistan on Monday in concessions aimed at pacifying a spreading Taliban insurgency there.
...the former tourist haven is supposed to be under full government control and lies less than 100 miles (160 kilometers) from the provincial capital, Islamabad.
...the United States, Pakistan and India face an "an enemy which poses direct threats to our leadership, our capitals and our people."

So... what were you saying TGB?

We all get to watch as your cowardly military and inept government continue to cave in to terrorist demands and give up control of one city after another...

swell.

Palehorse, you are missing the point. A significant part of the military and ruling establishment does not think imposition of Shariah law is necessarily a bad thing. They'll go along with it, much like Germans went along with Hitler. It's when our Shariah obsessed Islamists transfer their megalomaniac views to the world stage that they will be confronted and Pakistanis, like the Germans will pay for it.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: palehorse
EXHIBIT A:

Islamic Law to Be Imposed in Parts of Pakistan

Excerpt:
PESHAWAR, Pakistan ? The government agreed to impose Islamic law and suspend a military offensive across a large swath of northwest Pakistan on Monday in concessions aimed at pacifying a spreading Taliban insurgency there.
...the former tourist haven is supposed to be under full government control and lies less than 100 miles (160 kilometers) from the provincial capital, Islamabad.
...the United States, Pakistan and India face an "an enemy which poses direct threats to our leadership, our capitals and our people."

So... what were you saying TGB?

We all get to watch as your cowardly military and inept government continue to cave in to terrorist demands and give up control of one city after another...

swell.

I agree in principle that the Sharia law should be implemented. But not the barbaric laws the taliban are imposing. Their version is oppressive and unacceptable. Who gave them the right to be the rulers? Islamic law can not be imposed by someone like them.

On the other hand the government is going totally against the Sharia by making a pact with them. According to Islamic law rebellions should first be offered to give up their arms or face the consequences. The heavy weapons should be bought and the Taliban should be eliminated once and for all. Those civilians that want to leave can leave. Otherwise I am for flattening the entire area if required.

If the taliban ever come near Karachi; I'm going to apply for assylum. It's not going to happen though. It's more about ethnicity than religion in this.
Islam and the implementation of the Sharia is just a pretext to come into power and cause the sort of destruction they did in Afghanistan. Is the government sleeping or what? idiotic!

Australia thinks this is a good thing:
http://dawn.net/wps/wcm/connec...ositive-development-rs

The Indians should also wake up and throw away the British legal system. 60 years and we are still slaves to them.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I agree in principle that the Sharia law should be implemented. But not the barbaric laws the taliban are imposing.

Sharia is barbaric by Western Standards. All major juristic schools of Islam condone slavery, institutionalized second class status for women to include beating them, chopping of hands and feet of thieves,death penalty for sodomy, adultly, apostasy and so on. This has no place in modern world except where Sharia dominates.



Their version is oppressive and unacceptable. Who gave them the right to be the rulers? Islamic law can not be imposed by someone like them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir

The principle of Takfir in Islam allows the crazy and violent to terrorize peaceful Muslims into submission due to fear. Same thing that killed 150,000 Algerians for not "being quite Muslim enough" It does not take many violent extremists to control a population, Germany only had 1-2% brownshirts/nazis.


You need to wake up. Muslims are killing Muslims in the name of Islam. Taliban killed 7000 Pakistanis last year in 600 bomb blasts for Not being quite Muslim enough. In 2002, there were only 2 suicide attacks. You're country is falling to these guys and will get nukes sooner or later. Then I really fear for you and yours.

If the taliban ever come near Karachi; I'm going to apply for assylum

Where? Islam, true Islam, is having a bit of a redivivus at the moment. I fully expect every Muslim country within 20 years to be Taliban like. You know Taliban are pious and living like the prophet in the Hadiths and following Allah's word from Qu'ran it's exactly why no Moderate Muslim can oppose them on scholarly grounds.
 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
0
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Whitecloak
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Originally posted by: Whitecloak
Originally posted by: tvarad
Originally posted by: The Green Bean
....

The max the Taliban can get is the NWFP. If the broke away I'd say good riddance. They are a burden on us in every way. I maybe called a traitor for saying that; but it's the truth. In fact I'd be happy to join any sort of Indian federation provided we have full autonomy except in defense and foreign relations.

Wow, TGB willing to sleep with the enemy! What's the world coming to?

yea, that surprised me too.

I've never been against an Indian federation. What I'm against is the Indian policy of anti-Pakistanism to forward its own agendas. But it has too be a lose federation. There's no point fighting against one another. If there is an alliance we have the potential to become one of the greatest regions of the world. Too bad everybody here has wasted 65 years fighting amongst themselves. An alliance bonded by race, culture and ethnicity is stronger than fake alliances like ours with China. Again that's my opinion and doesn't represent the average Pakistani.

why would India want to form a federation? What's in it for India?

peace and economic development. The recently discovered $20 trillion worth of coal could help fuel its economy for decades.


That sounds more like a protection racket to me. India may lose a couple of development percentage points to Pakistani terrorism, but will hardly grind to a halt if Pakistan is consumed by flames of it's own creation. At the end of the day, there's absolutely no commonality with how India has developed and how Pakistan has developed since independence form Britain, so all this talk about federation is BS.

I wish you guys good luck because you're going to need it with matters coming to a head in Afghanistan and the border areas. My gut feeling is that the U.S./NATO forces will pretty much assume that the Pakistani army has chickened out in the border areas with it's surrender in SWAT and will take matters into their own hands. It will be interesting times, to say the least.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Whitecloak
so shariat should be applied in india because its better than british common law?

They can apply laws with Indian values.

And to those that think Islamic law is barbaric. Too bad. You won't be able to make me change my opinion so deal with it. It's a reality.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Zebo

Where? Islam, true Islam, is having a bit of a redivivus at the moment. I fully expect every Muslim country within 20 years to be Taliban like. You know Taliban are pious and living like the prophet in the Hadiths and following Allah's word from Qu'ran it's exactly why no Moderate Muslim can oppose them on scholarly grounds.

That's because the rest of the country is more educated. Both in modern subjects as well as theology. They wouldn't accept the taliban's rule. You look at things from a narrow scope. No time to waste replying to you.
 

Aberforth

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2006
1,707
1
0
I can't believe India keeping quiet in spite of gaining 4th place in world military strength.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
We are somewhat operating on a false assumption here, as if, given the choice of Sharia law or a more modern Islamic system of laws adopted by much of the modern Muslem world, the tribal regions of Pakistan are taking that giant step backwards by adopting Sharia law.

When that is in fact, not quite the case at all when we are dealing with a region with an somewhat Nato self imported civil war that has resulted in a total breakdown of the more normal and preferred modern justice system that has now totally broken down into a State of total anarchy.

So in reality, the choice has become Sharia Law vs. a system in which there is NO LAW AT ALL.

Sadly that choice is also present in largely Afghanistan and still persists in large parts of Iraq. Its also why large troop numbers are needed in any responsible military occupation, as soon as the existing government falls, the justice system becomes the responsibility of the occupying power. And nothing can be built until a justice system is in place that punishes the the thieves, the corrupt, and thuggish.

That failure after seven years is the number one reason for our failure in Afghanistan, and now its imported itself into the tribal regions of Pakistan.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Sharia Law has no place in the modern world. Any who choose to embrace it will be shunned and barred from the world stage. Period.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: palehorse
Sharia Law has no place in the modern world. Any who choose to embrace it will be shunned and barred from the world stage. Period.

You come out with your true colors. Shun me and bar me! All talk no action! Sharia law is the best law system. Period. I don't want to argue with you people why; that's my belief and it will not change so keep your comments to yourself.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
7
81
Originally posted by: Aberforth
I can't believe India keeping quiet in spite of gaining 4th place in world military strength.

One word: nukes.
Besides India doesn't have much advantage when it comes to conventional weapons either. They recently admitted they are behind us in missile technology. They would probably suffer more even in conventional war. I highly doubt they can establish air superiority over Pakistani territory.

Additionally there is no basis on which this attack would be justifiable in the UN.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
Sharia Law has no place in the modern world. Any who choose to embrace it will be shunned and barred from the world stage. Period.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The palehorse delusion is that many of those in the tribal regions of Pakistan want anything to do with the world stage in the first place. All its brought them is misery.

In terms of the more modern areas of Pakistan, both THE Green Bean and palehorse are correct, Sharia law is incompatible with a modern world and the local populace is almost 100% united in rejecting it.

Which then in itself implies the way to beat the Taliban, simply bring in the non military benefits of technology and modernity to Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan, and even the Taliban will realize Sharia law has to go. Which is simply what the bulk of the Islamic world has already done, but in conditions of civil war and anarchy, any population tends to rally around old time values and religion.