Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
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In my personal opinion, the international community should step in and get the India Pakistani dispute over Kashmir solved because its a festering wound that leads to tensions on both sides.
And as long as the dispute continues, it deters both sides from delivering the benefits of modernity to its populations.
And as long as the dispute continues, it deters both sides from delivering the benefits of modernity to its populations.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
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OK, under your interpretation of Sharia Law...
1. Do you support the death penalty for adultery or sodomy?
2. Do you believe that females should have ALL of the same rights as males?
3. Do you support stoning and beheading as legal forms of execution?
4. Do you support the amputation of limbs as punishments for crimes?
5. Do you believe that any man should be allowed to marry any woman, regardless of the tribe, sect, social status, or religion of either person?
6. At what age to you believe women should be allowed to get married?
7. What evidence is required to convict a man of rape? what is his punishment? Will the victim of the rape also be punished?
8. Is the light physical beating of one's wife permissible? If so, can women also lightly beat their husbands?
9. Would Jews, Christians, and non-religious persons have ALL of the exact same rights, freedoms, and opportunities as their Muslim neighbors under Sharia Law?
We'll start with those questions... trust me, I'm VERY interested in your modern interpretations of Sharia Law -- I really am! So please take the time to answer these questions.
Thanks ahead of time!
Two soverign nations with nuclear arsinals will not allow other nations to get involved in a dispute over land they both feel belongs to them, and I really doubt it would help.
Regarding TGB's claim that Sharia law is the best law system, this is why Pakistan is a terrorist breeding ground. Even in the educated areas young men are being brainwashed into thinking a Balitan coalition of Israeli/America/India are behind all the attacks in the SWAT area, and that the Taliban are liberation forces helping the people. They develop these maniacal thoughts with no one other input into the discussion. Because of this they can delve deeper and deeper into the conspiracy mindset. It is an unfortunate cycle that isn't being helped by our drone attacks and other world events.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
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Once again, palehorse makes a false argument. Lets look at our systems of laws. Do we have real justice when a Parnell is allowed to sell tainted peanuts, a Madoff is allowed to run a ponzi scheme, a Ken Lay, a Dick Cheney is allowed to foment wars, and do we have any kinds of real civil rights?
The fact is Sharia law is based on old time Jewish law, and as we try to kill our way out of our problems in the Afghan area, all we manage to accomplish is the spread and appeal of Sharia law, because our presence tends to so totally destabilize the more modern justice systems they had, that the old systems collapse, leaving them no law at all.
Look what happened immediately after the Shah of Iran fell, the Mullahs of Iran gained immense power, but as that Sharia law brand was incompatible to Iranian values, it has tremendously moderated since. But if palehorse wants to rail against Sharia law, maybe he should cite Saudi Arabia for using Sharia law. Somehow I suspect our military will take up that mantra against Saudi Arabia when and if the powers that be decide to next invade them. First one must demonize them, and then it becomes time to self justify looting their country.
The fact is Sharia law is based on old time Jewish law, and as we try to kill our way out of our problems in the Afghan area, all we manage to accomplish is the spread and appeal of Sharia law, because our presence tends to so totally destabilize the more modern justice systems they had, that the old systems collapse, leaving them no law at all.
Look what happened immediately after the Shah of Iran fell, the Mullahs of Iran gained immense power, but as that Sharia law brand was incompatible to Iranian values, it has tremendously moderated since. But if palehorse wants to rail against Sharia law, maybe he should cite Saudi Arabia for using Sharia law. Somehow I suspect our military will take up that mantra against Saudi Arabia when and if the powers that be decide to next invade them. First one must demonize them, and then it becomes time to self justify looting their country.
Huh? litigation is being pursued for Parnell, Madoff is facing criminal probes, Ken Lay was going to be inprisoned until he died. Our system of justice revolves around trial by jury and fair treatment of all individuals. Yes it can be corrupted by expensive lawyers, but any system can be corrupted. The idea is that our system of justice starts off at a more fair and balanced position. Sharia law in it's literal form starts off at a brutal position, which is biased agaisnt all non-Islam religions in application of law, and is also biased agaisnt females in application of law. Who cares if it gets modernized, at its core it is a biased system based on inequalities. Start with some other form of law that doesn't incorporate biasness at the base level. Yes it might become corrupted but don't even try to pretend Sharia law doesn't get corrupted with lawyers/etc.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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CLite is somewhat semi-correct, I certainly do not advocate Sharia law for many of the reasons CLite cites, I am merely pointing out the our presence has tended to spread rather than deter the appeal of Sharia law.
Its still a matter that we cannot go a half a world away, attack sovereign nations like Pakistan, and expect them to allow us to impose our values on them.
That is not justice either! And no, no, and no, we have not made the situation better for us or them. The only big winner here has been the terrorists.
Its still a matter that we cannot go a half a world away, attack sovereign nations like Pakistan, and expect them to allow us to impose our values on them.
That is not justice either! And no, no, and no, we have not made the situation better for us or them. The only big winner here has been the terrorists.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
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Once again, Lemon Law makes a complete ass of himself and argues for the sake of arguing when he asks, do we have real justice when a Parnell is allowed to sell tainted peanuts, a Madoff is allowed to run a ponzi scheme, a Ken Lay, a Dick Cheney is allowed to foment wars, and do we have any kinds of real civil rights?
No system is perfect, but Sharia Law is much worse than any other system in use today.
Lemon Law then drones on with semi-sorta-half-correct wrongness when he says that Sharia law is based on old time Jewish law, and as we try to kill our way out of our problems in the Afghan area, all we manage to accomplish is the spread and appeal of Sharia law, because our presence tends to so totally destabilize the more modern justice systems they had, that the old systems collapse, leaving them no law at all.
yes yes, it's all our fault, we know... it's not like TGB and his ilk ever sought to implement Sharia Law prior to our arrival... nope... no chance of that. :roll:
Last, and as usual, Lemon makes a fatal assumption when he proposes the challenge that if palehorse wants to rail against Sharia law, maybe he should cite Saudi Arabia for using Sharia law. Somehow I suspect our military will take up that mantra against Saudi Arabia when and if the powers that be decide to next invade them. First one must demonize them, and then it becomes time to self justify looting their country.
I do condemn Saudi Arabia -- as well as every other fundamentalist shithole where inhumane Sharia Law is the standard. My entire goal is to prevent yet another fundamentalist haven from popping up. If we can contain the issue, we can properly deal with inhumane fucks, like KSA, later...
NOTE: I hope you appreciate the ridiculous "Lemon-Law-Style" format that I chose for this post. I figure maybe you're too dumb to understand posts using the quote function, so I responded on your level in an attempt to get through. Good luck finding my comments scattered throughout the wall of text... but maybe, if we're lucky, you'll realize just how difficult it is to read your own drivel!
No system is perfect, but Sharia Law is much worse than any other system in use today.
Lemon Law then drones on with semi-sorta-half-correct wrongness when he says that Sharia law is based on old time Jewish law, and as we try to kill our way out of our problems in the Afghan area, all we manage to accomplish is the spread and appeal of Sharia law, because our presence tends to so totally destabilize the more modern justice systems they had, that the old systems collapse, leaving them no law at all.
yes yes, it's all our fault, we know... it's not like TGB and his ilk ever sought to implement Sharia Law prior to our arrival... nope... no chance of that. :roll:
Last, and as usual, Lemon makes a fatal assumption when he proposes the challenge that if palehorse wants to rail against Sharia law, maybe he should cite Saudi Arabia for using Sharia law. Somehow I suspect our military will take up that mantra against Saudi Arabia when and if the powers that be decide to next invade them. First one must demonize them, and then it becomes time to self justify looting their country.
I do condemn Saudi Arabia -- as well as every other fundamentalist shithole where inhumane Sharia Law is the standard. My entire goal is to prevent yet another fundamentalist haven from popping up. If we can contain the issue, we can properly deal with inhumane fucks, like KSA, later...
NOTE: I hope you appreciate the ridiculous "Lemon-Law-Style" format that I chose for this post. I figure maybe you're too dumb to understand posts using the quote function, so I responded on your level in an attempt to get through. Good luck finding my comments scattered throughout the wall of text... but maybe, if we're lucky, you'll realize just how difficult it is to read your own drivel!
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
TGB, believe it or not, sometimes I don't enjoy being right...
Pakistani woman watches Taliban take over town she loves
Excerpt:
Pakistani woman watches Taliban take over town she loves
Excerpt:
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
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Your thesis is weak. The three richest Islamic countries practice Sharia. One, Saudi, has been politically stable for 70 years and it's pretty much to the tee of taliban. But then you're a guy who thinks the poor become suicide bombers too when it's the educated and wealthy.
I know the Western powers are to blame for everything in your eyes. You are so preoccupied to an excessive, irrational, and pathological degree, to virtues like trying to transcend xenophobia and criticizing one?s own culture you can't see barbarity and evil for what it is. That's sad. I blame Christianity instead for infusing these self destructive values into secular humanism.
PS - You're not taking me along with you I have no problem calling a spade a spade so modern ideals of Hobbes and Locke and Rousseau, Mill and Bentham, etc are not lost to this retrograde faith.
I can agree with this. Our military involvement in SWAT is promoting rebound reactions from young extremists. I wouldn't say we are the seed of it by any means, but we are certaintly nurturing the seed that already exists there. Trust me, a friend of mine runs a blog about progressive Pakistan and she posts a lot of interesting articles, people who visit almost all have modernizing views HOWEVER every single one of them is disgusted by the drone attacks/etc. You can not begin to understand how big of a recruiting tool these are when even very modernized people who have lived in the U.S.A. are disgusted by the activity.
I believe it's a dual edged sword situation and it really need to be solved by Pakistan stepping up to the plate and taking internal responsibility for the area w/out US involvement.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
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That's not entirely true. Islamists who are well educated and wealthy may become high-profile suicide bombers and members of AQ, such as those involved in 9/11; but the large majority of the day-to-day suicide bombers throughout Pakistan, Indonesia, Israel, Somalia, Iraq, or elsewhere, are not wealthy or well educated by any stretch of the imagination.
The vast majority of well educated and wealthy Islamists become cell leaders, facilitators, trainers, financiers, etc.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
So what other options are there, for the U.S. and NATO, when Pakistan fails to do so? Should we allow the Taliban and AQ to continue to exist and operate unmolested? Should we just give up and leave?
When the very things needed for progress -- education, technology, infrastructure, etc -- are the very things that are banished under strict Taliban rule, and the Pakistani government fails to do anything about said Taliban rule, what are our remaining options?
Well Pakistan-proper will continue to progress and I think as they continue to modernize the outlying regions can begin to be turned. IT's just my personal opinion that by striking their bases we are creating 10 new ones for every one bombed. Don't underestimate the value of PR, while I don't agree that what we are doing is necessarily *wrong* since we have the government's agreement, it is murdering our reputation and spawning thousands of wannabe terrorists in Pakistan's youth population.
Sorry my above post didn't really address your question.
I think the steps needed:
1) Fortify afghan border
2) Distance self from Pakistan politics so the current government is percieved as less of a U.S. puppet by its own people
3) Initiate proganda in the region with ground-based word of mouth. The people truly are sick of the Taliban
4) Covertly assist in training Pakistani forces with special forces, any large training mission would be perceived as collaboration and undermine the current government.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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Zebo states " Your thesis is weak. The three richest Islamic countries practice Sharia. One, Saudi, has been politically stable for 70 years and it's pretty much to the tee of taliban. But then you're a guy who thinks the poor become suicide bombers too when it's the educated and wealthy."
I merely point out, our status quo results are far weaker. We have this big war on terrorism that creates more terrorists than we kill, we assert the right to kill innocent civilians in other countries to avenge 911, we toss our lives and money down rat holes, and when it does not work, we think more of the same is called for?????????????????????????????
Get a clue, its not working, and the fact that its not working should be obvious to all with any brains.
I merely point out, our status quo results are far weaker. We have this big war on terrorism that creates more terrorists than we kill, we assert the right to kill innocent civilians in other countries to avenge 911, we toss our lives and money down rat holes, and when it does not work, we think more of the same is called for?????????????????????????????
Get a clue, its not working, and the fact that its not working should be obvious to all with any brains.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
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I certainly agree that we're stuck in a catch-22. However, I have to disagree with your theory of a modern Pakistan eventually expanding into the territories. As it stands, in terms of expansion, the exact opposite is happening! It's the Taliban and other extremists whose areas of operation are becoming larger every year. "Modern Pakistan" is actually retreating...
Nemesis 1
Lifer
- Dec 30, 2006
- 11,366
- 2
- 0
The word coward. I wonder who benefits from that word usage. The Poor - Nope.
The middle class- Nope. THe Rich = Yep . They use the word on the other 2 classes if we don't fight for their benefit. In todays world . I would gladly be labaled a coward than a hero in todays word. I hero stands up to injustice and says NO. We aren't your puppets anymore. You want to war with someone go for it. But were all cowards now . You have lost your power over us . We refuse to do what our minds tell us is wrong. You have lost your power over me . For I rather die than submit to your will. Call me a coward . Your words mean little as your less than nothing.
Thats my kind of Hero, A true thinking Coward. I will take 6 billion of them please.
The middle class- Nope. THe Rich = Yep . They use the word on the other 2 classes if we don't fight for their benefit. In todays world . I would gladly be labaled a coward than a hero in todays word. I hero stands up to injustice and says NO. We aren't your puppets anymore. You want to war with someone go for it. But were all cowards now . You have lost your power over us . We refuse to do what our minds tell us is wrong. You have lost your power over me . For I rather die than submit to your will. Call me a coward . Your words mean little as your less than nothing.
Thats my kind of Hero, A true thinking Coward. I will take 6 billion of them please.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
What if I told you that all/most of the above were already being done?
1. The "border," as it was drawn by the Brits, is impossible to fortify completely. It lies on some of the planet's roughest terrain. Even with drones and 500k troops, we probably couldn't lock it down...
2. As an ally of the U.S. they will always be perceived as a puppet by their own citizens. The only possible solution would be a total disconnect -- which is too costly for the U.S. and NATO, in terms of access, supply routes, information, coordinated ops, etc.
3. Word-of-mouth propaganda is slow and ultimately ineffective when the Taliban threaten and/or slaughter any who might object to their presence or practices. That said, there are certainly other types of perception management that can be effective. Heck, many Pakistani Lashkars have already formed up and attempted to kick the Taliban out of certain tribal areas. The problem is that nobody -- NATO, U.S., or Pakistan -- has taken advantage of these Lashkars. If handled properly, they could be leveraged in the region, similar to the way the Sons of the Awakening were leveraged in Iraq, to great effect. I'm still waiting to see this happen...
4. Open source reporting indicates that we are already training the Pakistani Special Services Group and others; and that said training has been going on for quite some time. It does not appear that the training has trickled down to the normal Pakistani military forces on the front lines, however, as they have consistently failed to be effective against the Extremists in Swat or the NWFP. They're practically useless... and they're retreating!
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Well we can agree on that. This war is not going to be won with bombing our way out. There are only two paths to victory against this what I call Islam redivivus, or true hard core Islam, taking over the Muslim world.
Treat as a police action and work with what we have to work with, including Ayatollas and even oppressive leaders. But this should include some type of reciprocal modicum of human and religious rights to maintain trade, aid and relations.
Or, Obviously what many of your type, secular humanists, irrationally fears by our condemnation, of going down that slippery slope toward the horribly unethical collective measures against all Muslims?from mass deportation, to mass internment, to ethnic cleansing, and finally, genocide.
1. True, I think this plays into having a ground populace that supports us. Their information has already greatly assisted drone strikes, they could do much to help locate movements across the border
2. Our military strikes are greatly contributing to the perception of them being a puppet. It is a huge factor, in addition to that, our nuclear treaty with India has upset a lot of the previous semi-moderates in Pakistan and have made them more extremist towards the U.S. Don't underestimate Pakistan's hate of India when thinking of relations.
3. If the people become disenfranchised with the Taliban they will turn to the tribal leaders or the pakistani army to kick them out. You are talking about some of the toughest people living in one of the toughest places in the planet. They already have started to turn unfortunately we are using this to provide information for drone strikes rather than taking other steps, like Pakistani army intervention.
4. Training: yeah I know, it just is a slow as hell process.
Sharia Law is bigoted and barbaric. Now if you want some system based off of a system of Sharia Law that cleanses all of the evils of it, then that would be fine. But maybe if you 'clean' it of all of the evil of Sharia Law, then there may not be much left to base a system off of it.
I think people here are not getting the seriousness of the situation, that country is providing safe haven to din laden and other trigger-happy killjoys for over 10 years according to CIA reports, now their govt has allied with them. So eventually, nukes will fall in the hands of these illiterate morons and then every other country will say it's time to panic.
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