India - Pakistan Crisis

[The Green Bean]

MULTAN: Foreign Minister, Shah Mahmood Quraishi has said, ?Pakistan doesn?t want war and we are desirous of peace, but if war is thrust on us, then we have all the rights to defend.?

Talking to media at Multan Airport, Foreign Minister, Shah Mahmood Quraishi said, ?We are prepared to fully cooperate with India, but India should provide concrete evidences. Foreign minister said we possess all the potentiality for defense and the Pakistan Armed Forces are absolutely prepared for defense.

I think it's kind of pointless it has all come down to this. Firstly it's totally ridiculous that 15 terrorists could cause so much damage with AK47s and keep the Indian commandos at bay for 3 long days! Second, the terrorist India has captured - investigative journalism revealed that no man of that name existed in the village the Indians claimed he was from! And now India is violating our airspace.

Even if the Pakistani were involved in whatever way it's total madness to risk a war that may leave 100million people dead for avenging the deaths of 172. The Indian media is full of crap and has been warmongering ever since the attacks. They said "it's now time to be angry at Pakistan" BEFORE the whole fiasco was over. I think the Indians know well enough that it's all internal politics but the can not afford to point the finger at anyone except us when elections are around the corner. In any case I'm happy that the vile BJP was not in power or we would have seen Mushroom clouds sprouting all over the subcontinent.

As much as I'd like Pakistan to be rid of terrorism this is all double standard. When the Marriot Bombings happened in Islamabad we were a "breeding ground of terrorism." No sympathy from the world. And now when something happens to India they get world support for "defending themselves." As much as I support India's call for our government to get rid of these so called terrorist organization, saber-rattling won't achieve much. It just fuels the fire and provokes our people to show India the middle finger and fight it out. But then again neither side can afford war; especially India.

Neither side can score an outright victory. Not when both sides are armed with nukes. So why go to war?

And before you call be anti-Indian I have the most to lose from this potential conflict. Half my family lives in India. So does my fiancee. I used to visit thrice a year but now dirty politics means that we won't get to see each other very often.

 

[Ozoned]

Must really suck, living in such a pathetic shit-hole, huh?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Must really suck, living in such a pathetic shit-hole, huh?

That does not help. Having said that I probably make a lot more money than you if that counts for anything. So life is not that bad.

 

[JJChicken]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Must really suck, living in such a pathetic shit-hole, huh?

That does not help. Having said that I probably make a lot more money than you if that counts for anything. So life is not that bad.

:roll:

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Must really suck, living in such a pathetic shit-hole, huh?

Jerkiest post I've seen in a long time, and that's saying something.

 

[Dari]

If you can't accept the fact that your country is a breeding ground for terrorists (almost every major act of international terrorism in the past 18 years has had powerful ties to Pakistan) then external forces may be needed to clean up the mess in your country.

While other countries export normal goods, Pakistan exports terrorism.

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

MULTAN: Foreign Minister, Shah Mahmood Quraishi has said, ?Pakistan doesn?t want war and we are desirous of peace, but if war is thrust on us, then we have all the rights to defend.?

Talking to media at Multan Airport, Foreign Minister, Shah Mahmood Quraishi said, ?We are prepared to fully cooperate with India, but India should provide concrete evidences. Foreign minister said we possess all the potentiality for defense and the Pakistan Armed Forces are absolutely prepared for defense.

I think it's kind of pointless it has all come down to this. Firstly it's totally ridiculous that 15 terrorists could cause so much damage with AK47s and keep the Indian commandos at bay for 3 long days! Second, the terrorist India has captured - investigative journalism revealed that no man of that name existed in the village the Indians claimed he was from! And now India is violating our airspace.

Even if the Pakistani were involved in whatever way it's total madness to risk a war that may leave 100million people dead for avenging the deaths of 172. The Indian media is full of crap and has been warmongering ever since the attacks. They said "it's now time to be angry at Pakistan" BEFORE the whole fiasco was over. I think the Indians know well enough that it's all internal politics but the can not afford to point the finger at anyone except us when elections are around the corner. In any case I'm happy that the vile BJP was not in power or we would have seen Mushroom clouds sprouting all over the subcontinent.

As much as I'd like Pakistan to be rid of terrorism this is all double standard. When the Marriot Bombings happened in Islamabad we were a "breeding ground of terrorism." No sympathy from the world. And now when something happens to India they get world support for "defending themselves." As much as I support India's call for our government to get rid of these so called terrorist organization, saber-rattling won't achieve much. It just fuels the fire and provokes our people to show India the middle finger and fight it out. But then again neither side can afford war; especially India.

Neither side can score an outright victory. Not when both sides are armed with nukes. So why go to war?

And before you call be anti-Indian I have the most to lose from this potential conflict. Half my family lives in India. So does my fiancee. I used to visit thrice a year but now dirty politics means that we won't get to see each other very often.

A truly laughable post. Who are you trying to convince here that Pakistan is not the epicenter of terrorism? If Gordon Brown can say that 75% of the terrorist plots that Scotland Yard uncovers are somehow connected to Pakistan, do you seriously think that someone is going to believe Pakistan when it says that the terrorist misfits and malcontents who wreaked such havoc in Bombay were not from there? There is plenty of evidence that the attack originated in Pakistan which has been corroborated by Western intelligence agencies.

And if India provides "concrete evidence" to Pakistan, that information will be used against India to plot the next attack by the ISI operatives and the army who everyone knows run Pakistan (and not their useful idiots, the politicians like Zardari and Gilani).

The difference between the Marriot bombings and the Bombay attacks was that the attackers in the first instance were domestic and the ones in the second were foreign. I don't think Pakistanis understand how serious this is. Nations go to war on such provocation, especially when it's been established that it's been state sanctioned. And Pakistanis should stop deluding themselves that their "nuclear" weapons put them on an equal footing with India and will somehow shield them just because their army and it's ISI surrogates establish "plausible deniabiliity" for such attacks. BJP or no BJP, a couple more attacks like this and even a Mahatma-Gandhi like Prime Minister of India will not be able to stop a punitive strike on Pakistan.

If I were you, I would stop whining about how unfair the world is on Pakistan and impress upon your generals and their surrogates that their actions are starting to become eerily similar to the events that led to the unhinging of your country in 1971.

 

[crisscross]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

MULTAN: Foreign Minister, Shah Mahmood Quraishi has said, ?Pakistan doesn?t want war and we are desirous of peace, but if war is thrust on us, then we have all the rights to defend.?

Talking to media at Multan Airport, Foreign Minister, Shah Mahmood Quraishi said, ?We are prepared to fully cooperate with India, but India should provide concrete evidences. Foreign minister said we possess all the potentiality for defense and the Pakistan Armed Forces are absolutely prepared for defense.

I think it's kind of pointless it has all come down to this. Firstly it's totally ridiculous that 15 terrorists could cause so much damage with AK47s and keep the Indian commandos at bay for 3 long days! Second, the terrorist India has captured - investigative journalism revealed that no man of that name existed in the village the Indians claimed he was from! And now India is violating our airspace.

Even if the Pakistani were involved in whatever way it's total madness to risk a war that may leave 100million people dead for avenging the deaths of 172. The Indian media is full of crap and has been warmongering ever since the attacks. They said "it's now time to be angry at Pakistan" BEFORE the whole fiasco was over. I think the Indians know well enough that it's all internal politics but the can not afford to point the finger at anyone except us when elections are around the corner. In any case I'm happy that the vile BJP was not in power or we would have seen Mushroom clouds sprouting all over the subcontinent.

As much as I'd like Pakistan to be rid of terrorism this is all double standard. When the Marriot Bombings happened in Islamabad we were a "breeding ground of terrorism." No sympathy from the world. And now when something happens to India they get world support for "defending themselves." As much as I support India's call for our government to get rid of these so called terrorist organization, saber-rattling won't achieve much. It just fuels the fire and provokes our people to show India the middle finger and fight it out. But then again neither side can afford war; especially India.

Neither side can score an outright victory. Not when both sides are armed with nukes. So why go to war?

And before you call be anti-Indian I have the most to lose from this potential conflict. Half my family lives in India. So does my fiancee. I used to visit thrice a year but now dirty politics means that we won't get to see each other very often.

oh stfu. Your country has been exporting terror for years and while the Mumbai terror attacks were the latest, they were by no means the first.

And what investigative journalism are you talking about? your own news channel interviewed the captured terrorist's father who admitted that kasab is his son. Your own ex prime minister Nawaz Sharif has accepted that the terrorists were from Pakistan.

I am disappointed that people in my country have ties with someone like you.

 

[ZzZGuy]

I still think the carrot & stick method should be used.

Threaten to cut all economic aid and place harsh sanctions if the present situation continues, which would collapse the entire economy, threatening to turn Pakistan into a mirror image of Afghanistan (Don't think it'll get that bad? Wait till the Taliban take over).
Reward Pakistan with increased economic aid and cheap military hardware in relation to their counter terrorism efforts, along with training, if they make "good" headway in cleaning up their own country. And I don't mean token efforts that do nothing.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I still think the carrot & stick method should be used.

Threaten to cut all economic aid and place harsh sanctions if the present situation continues, which would collapse the entire economy, threatening to turn Pakistan into a mirror image of Afghanistan (Don't think it'll get that bad? Wait till the Taliban take over).
Reward Pakistan with increased economic aid and cheap military hardware in relation to their counter terrorism efforts, along with training, if they make "good" headway in cleaning up their own country. And I don't mean token efforts that do nothing.

The problem with that is, in addition to being America's "ally", Pakistan is also aligned with China. If we abandon them they can always go to China, which is the third largest economy in the world. That would be bad for us and the Indians. So we need Pakistan as much as they need us and everybody knows that.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I still think the carrot & stick method should be used.

Threaten to cut all economic aid and place harsh sanctions if the present situation continues, which would collapse the entire economy, threatening to turn Pakistan into a mirror image of Afghanistan (Don't think it'll get that bad? Wait till the Taliban take over).
Reward Pakistan with increased economic aid and cheap military hardware in relation to their counter terrorism efforts, along with training, if they make "good" headway in cleaning up their own country. And I don't mean token efforts that do nothing.

The problem with that is, in addition to being America's "ally", Pakistan is also aligned with China. If we abandon them they can always go to China, which is the third largest economy in the world. That would be bad for us and the Indians. So we need Pakistan as much as they need us and everybody knows that.

Ah, forgot about that.

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I still think the carrot & stick method should be used.

Threaten to cut all economic aid and place harsh sanctions if the present situation continues, which would collapse the entire economy, threatening to turn Pakistan into a mirror image of Afghanistan (Don't think it'll get that bad? Wait till the Taliban take over).
Reward Pakistan with increased economic aid and cheap military hardware in relation to their counter terrorism efforts, along with training, if they make "good" headway in cleaning up their own country. And I don't mean token efforts that do nothing.

The fundamental dynamic of Pakistan is that the army has too much of a good thing going for it to change it's ways with a carrot-and-stick approach. It owns or directly or indirectly controls most of the assets in Pakistan. It cares only about itself and is essentially a parasite in the body of the Pakistani politic. And parasites don't care about world-opinion, or sanctions or other measures. Look at how Mugabe has run Zimbabwe into the ground and is still ruling the roost despite such measures. All that will happen is that the host will wither and die while the parasite stays as strong as ever.

Short of prying it's hands off the levers of power in Pakistan (which I know is easier said than done), I cannot see anything else that will redeem that wretched country.

 

[crisscross]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I still think the carrot & stick method should be used.

Threaten to cut all economic aid and place harsh sanctions if the present situation continues, which would collapse the entire economy, threatening to turn Pakistan into a mirror image of Afghanistan (Don't think it'll get that bad? Wait till the Taliban take over).
Reward Pakistan with increased economic aid and cheap military hardware in relation to their counter terrorism efforts, along with training, if they make "good" headway in cleaning up their own country. And I don't mean token efforts that do nothing.

The problem with that is, in addition to being America's "ally", Pakistan is also aligned with China. If we abandon them they can always go to China, which is the third largest economy in the world. That would be bad for us and the Indians. So we need Pakistan as much as they need us and everybody knows that.

Ah, forgot about that.

Actually, they are in very very bad shape economically and are close to bankruptcy. They went to their usual saviors the Saudis and China who both refused to bail them out. As a last recourse they have gone to the IMF who are now giving them a loan.

Pakistan is very closed to a "failed state" if not already so.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: tvarad

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I still think the carrot & stick method should be used.

Threaten to cut all economic aid and place harsh sanctions if the present situation continues, which would collapse the entire economy, threatening to turn Pakistan into a mirror image of Afghanistan (Don't think it'll get that bad? Wait till the Taliban take over).
Reward Pakistan with increased economic aid and cheap military hardware in relation to their counter terrorism efforts, along with training, if they make "good" headway in cleaning up their own country. And I don't mean token efforts that do nothing.

The fundamental dynamic of Pakistan is that the army has too much of a good thing going for it to change it's ways with a carrot-and-stick approach. It owns or directly or indirectly controls most of the assets in Pakistan. It cares only about itself and is essentially a parasite in the body of the Pakistani politic. And parasites don't care about world-opinion, or sanctions or other measures. Look at how Mugabe has run Zimbabwe into the ground and is still ruling the roost despite such measures. All that will happen is that the host will wither and die while the parasite stays as strong as ever.

Short of prying it's hands off the levers of power in Pakistan (which I know is easier said than done), I cannot see anything else that will redeem that wretched country.

Well, in Zimbabwe they don't have a serious terrorist problem.

In Pakistan, they are infested. I can see the taliban launching a all out war against whatever is left of the current government if the country collapses, and probably winning. The Pakistani military will be non existent if the country collapsed, no money to pay the troops and no money for supplies. This is not like NK where they are the only terrorists in town, able to stomp out any and all resistance that might pop up. That and ruling sheeple helps.

Then you have all the other terrorist groups that will try and carve out their own little hell hole, it will be total and utter chaos

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: crisscross

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
I still think the carrot & stick method should be used.

Threaten to cut all economic aid and place harsh sanctions if the present situation continues, which would collapse the entire economy, threatening to turn Pakistan into a mirror image of Afghanistan (Don't think it'll get that bad? Wait till the Taliban take over).
Reward Pakistan with increased economic aid and cheap military hardware in relation to their counter terrorism efforts, along with training, if they make "good" headway in cleaning up their own country. And I don't mean token efforts that do nothing.

The problem with that is, in addition to being America's "ally", Pakistan is also aligned with China. If we abandon them they can always go to China, which is the third largest economy in the world. That would be bad for us and the Indians. So we need Pakistan as much as they need us and everybody knows that.

Ah, forgot about that.

Actually, they are in very very bad shape economically and are close to bankruptcy. They went to their usual saviors the Saudis and China who both refused to bail them out. As a last recourse they have gone to the IMF who are now giving them a loan.

Pakistan is very closed to a "failed state" if not already so.

Reading between the tea leaves, their meeting with the IMF was like "you owe us for our part in the GWoT". I know, it's laughable but Pakistan can do a lot more damage if it wanted to. It is a failed state and a blackmail state.

 

[KGB]

Bean,

In a previous thread I lauded your participation and viewpoints and even encouraged more.
However, the same question needs to be answered: When will your country do something about the ISI? They are playing both sides against the middle and are part of the problem; not the solution.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: KGBMAN
Bean,

In a previous thread I lauded your participation and viewpoints and even encouraged more.
However, the same question needs to be answered: When will your country do something about the ISI? They are playing both sides against the middle and are part of the problem; not the solution.

I think signaling out the ISI is unfair. Pakistan has concrete evidence against the RAW fueling the insurgency in Balochistan. I Refuse to believe the ISI had anything to do with the Mumbai attacks until someone shows me solid proof. The burden of proof is on India's shoulders not mine. Why should I believe something just because a million people say so? There are hundreds of terrorists groups working inside India like the Maoists. It could very well be one of them.

There was a time when I thought my countrymen were hateful against India. But now seeing that India blames everything on us this hatefulness is justified.

I also find it ridiculous that with the satellite defense system India has a naval vessel could actually land on the shore of a major city laden with weapons and use them like the did. What I find more ridiculous is people actually believe that. Indian Coast guard ships arrest Pakistani fishermen everyday for crossing into Indian waters. How this boat could have got through beats me.

And if India wants to go to war; let them. We will give them a befitting reply. Oppressors seldom win. They are just taking advantage of the situation we are in.

And guess who the biggest losers of the war will be? It will be the Americans in Afghanistan. We have 100,000 troops on the Afghan border fighting the Taliban which will be shifted to the eastern border the moment war breaks out.

Even though I consider nukes to be immoral and should be banned, the Pakistani army might use them causing the whole region to be turned into ash.

 

[The Green Bean]

KARACHI, Pakistan?As if the hilarious propaganda by the Indian media was not enough, the Indian police has come up with some more details about the email in which the so-called Deccan Mujahedeen claimed responsibility for Mumbai attacks.

According to their investigation, the attackers used a Russian-based email address and the email account was later used from a computer in Pakistan to send email and claim responsibility for the attacks.

The investigators also claim that the Hindi email content was not typed but rather dictated using a speech recognition system.

There are literally thousands of unsecured proxy servers on the internet that can be used to relay internet traffic. Such proxy servers are used by internet hackers all over the world to hide information about their actual location. So, for example, a person sitting in India can use a Russian proxy server which would make the email look as if it originated from Russia.

As evident from the attacks, the attackers were trained and very professional. If so, then it seems intriguing that they used their home computers to send an email claiming responsibility for the attacks.

The Indians are known to use unsecured proxy servers and internet ?anonymizers? to hide their actual location. Like unprotected proxy servers, there is a free service called Tor, which is a global network built by its users (users share their internet bandwidth for relaying traffic for other users and become a Tor node) to relay encrypted traffic to hide location information and access banned content and websites. Last year a Swedish hacker who was running a TOR anonymizer node posted details of usernames and passwords he gathered by monitoring his Tor node.

Surprisingly, most of the usernames and passwords were of Indian embassies, consulates and different government departments (including Indian Embassies in China, Oman, Germany, Finland, USA, India National Defense Academy and Defence Research & Development Organisation Govt. Of India, Ministry of Defence). This was a solid evidence that Indian officials and their assets in foreign countries use internet anonymizers to hide their location information. We can now easily guess how the email was registered in Russia and later used from Pakistan.

I should add here that it is not possible to find out if someone used special speech recognition software to create an email. This information is never included in the email, which makes the claim of Indian investigators totally baseless. The matter of fact is that since the email was sent in Indian language using ?Devnagari script? and had some spelling mistakes, the investigators are of the view that the person dictating the email was unable to read or write Hindi and so he used speech recognition software but couldn?t proofread the text output in Hindi. The question is: Do you really think that people who planned such a professional attack and had access to Indian maps, bank accounts, mobile SIMs and credit cards couldn?t get access to someone to write or even read Hindi?

The Hindi language uses the Devnagri script, which is very complicated when compared to the English language. Here are some interesting facts about writing Hindi with computers. The following also strengthens the theory of an ?inside job? in Mumbai attacks:

1. The Devnagri script used in Hindi has over 40 basic characters, and some 12 modifiers to the characters that are represented above or below the basic characters

2. There are many keyboards available for the Devnagri script, but a user has to press a combination of keys to input one character of the script

3. HP India has designed a ?gesture keyboard? which uses a combination of keyboard presses and gestures to handle Hindi. The touch-pad only has the basic characters of the Devnagri script

4. IBM recently developed a Desktop Hindi Speech Recognition technology, which is still in its infancy and is being tested at the Centre for Development of Advanced Computing, India

So a person needs to have an above-average Hindi reading and writing skills in order to use any of the above mentioned possibilities. With all of this information combined, we can clearly say that the email was fabricated by the Indians and they added speech recognition to add spice to the story and make it look like some Hollywood high tech movie. Albeit, it still has distinct spice of Bollywood.

 

[The Green Bean]

Pakistan is yet to verify Indian claims about Kassab. But his name is already on the list of Pakistani citizens kidnapped by Indians from Nepal. A Nepalese court is looking into the matter. So, was the Mumbai attack an inside job, a bright Indian idea to replicate 9/11 that launched America?s global military offensive? The Indians watch too much Bollywood, which is based on an overdose of fantasy. Those addicted on this form of entertainment can do anything.



By THE NEWS INTERNATIONAL

Monday, 15 December 2008.

WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM



RAWALPINDI, Pakistan? A Pakistani lawyer C M Farooque claimed that many people, including Ajmal Kasab, were arrested in 2006 from Katmandu by the Indian agencies with the help of Nepalese forces.

He said Ajmal Kasab went to the Nepalese capital on a business tour. His application regarding his arrest was lying pending in the Nepalese Supreme Court in which a reply was sought from Nepalese forces and Indian High Commission.

While talking to the Geo News, C M Farooque Advocate said the Nepalese forces arrested almost 200 people including Ajmal Kasab before 2006 and his application in this regard was lying pending in the Nepalese Supreme Court in which Nepalese forces and Indian High Commission were made respondents.

The advocate said he wrote letters to Pakistan and Indian governments in this regard. He said that he had also addressed a press conference in Nepal highlighting the issue in which he revealed that the Nepalese forces arrested Ajmal Kasab and many others and held them at an unknown place and that these people would be used for their ulterior designs at some later stage. He said that he had no contact with Ajmal Kasab ever since he disappeared.

The lawyer said he was still pleading the case of Kasab and was to visit Nepal towards the end of this month. The Nepalese Supreme Court had repeatedly issued notices to the respondents to furnish their reply but they did not submit any reply.

Advocate Farooque said he had filed the petition in the Nepalese Supreme Court in February 2008. He said he was running an NGO, ?Voice of Human and Prisoners Rights? and the parents of Ajmal Kasab contacted him for help in this regard after appealing to the Pakistan Government for help.

The people arrested in Nepal had gone there on legal visa for business but Indian agencies were in the habit of capturing Pakistanis from Nepal and afterwards implicated them in the Mumbai-like incidents to malign Pakistan.

 

[0marTheZealot]

India can go ahead and attack Pakistan.

They will have to accept that their 15 major cities will be nuked out ruins.

Pakistan is going to lose no matter what in a war. Unless they can lightning blitz the Indian army into nothingness, they have no chance in a conventional war. However, the game changes drastically when India knows that it's 15 major cities will be nuked. This is nothing but posturing.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
India can go ahead and attack Pakistan.

They will have to accept that their 15 major cities will be nuked out ruins.

Pakistan is going to lose no matter what in a war. Unless they can lightning blitz the Indian army into nothingness, they have no chance in a conventional war. However, the game changes drastically when India knows that it's 15 major cities will be nuked. This is nothing but posturing.

Who would win the air war? That would probably declare the winner.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Ozoned
Must really suck, living in such a pathetic shit-hole, huh?

Jerkiest post I've seen in a long time, and that's saying something.

Oh, how cute. I have a stalker.

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
India can go ahead and attack Pakistan.

They will have to accept that their 15 major cities will be nuked out ruins.

Pakistan is going to lose no matter what in a war. Unless they can lightning blitz the Indian army into nothingness, they have no chance in a conventional war. However, the game changes drastically when India knows that it's 15 major cities will be nuked. This is nothing but posturing.

The Pakistani army is populated by a bunch of cowards. Whenever their monkey tactics of tweaking the elephants tail have elicited a response, like in 1965, 1971, 1999 what have they done? Either they've turned tail, surrendered en-masse or plain dropped their trousers and showed their a*ses for the whupping to come.

Your bravado doesn't amount to squat.

 

[daniel49]

whom do I believe Pakistan or India.
Hmmm not much of a contest there.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: daniel49
whom do I believe Pakistan or India.
Hmmm not much of a contest there.

It's not about believing India or Pakistan. It's about believing common sense.