India - Pakistan Crisis

[The Green Bean]

So what if the terrorist came from Pakistan? We know we are victims of terrorism. But it's hardly easy to bring down a terrorist network that is the taliban. If the USA is failing in Iraq and Afghanistan; what about the huge underworlds in the USA and India. It's not easy to dismantle terrorist organizations. However; I think our FO is acting in a mature manner. After considering the evidence we accepted. India was sounding the war drums from day one without any proof that they had shared. I think this comes at as a big blow to India who are it seems eager for war. They are "urgently" upgrading their Mig 27s.

And my fiancee wanted to travel to meet me next week. She could not get a visa. I wanted to make a work/school related trip which I couldn't make last month. So whatever is happening is affecting me more than your armchair generals here. Oh well; that's life.

 

[sciwizam]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
So what if the terrorist came from Pakistan? We know we are victims of terrorism. But it's hardly easy to bring down a terrorist network that is the taliban. If the USA is failing in Iraq and Afghanistan; what about the huge underworlds in the USA and India. It's not easy to dismantle terrorist organizations. However; I think our FO is acting in a mature manner. After considering the evidence we accepted. India was sounding the war drums from day one without any proof that they had shared. I think this comes at as a big blow to India who are it seems eager for war. They are "urgently" upgrading their Mig 27s.

And my fiancee wanted to travel to meet me next week. She could not get a visa. I wanted to make a work/school related trip which I couldn't make last month. So whatever is happening is affecting me more than your armchair generals here. Oh well; that's life.

If by "urgently" you mean the project that was started in 2002. :roll:

Link

16:12 GMT, January 6, 2009 New Delhi | India has completed the upgrade of the 120 Soviet-origin MiG-27 fighter bomber aircraft IANS reported today. The upgrade project gives the aircraft better navigational technology and a pilot friendly cockpit, a senior official said to the Indian news agency.

The project was initiated in the year 2002 through a tripartite Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) under the aegis of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Nasik and the Indian Air Force.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The problem is not that they came from Pakistan.

It is the fact that they were supported during the incident from Pakistan
And what other support may have come from within Pakistan from officials is a concern.

With respect to this incident, every denial that has come out of Pakistan has proven to be false; that track record makes it difficult to believe that somewhere within the government (military/intelligence, etc) was not involved - the attempt to discredit the evidence raises a red flag.


Because Pakistan immeiately started to spin the evidence, it rases suspicions on what they knew and how much.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
So what if the terrorist came from Pakistan? We know we are victims of terrorism. But it's hardly easy to bring down a terrorist network that is the taliban. If the USA is failing in Iraq and Afghanistan; what about the huge underworlds in the USA and India. It's not easy to dismantle terrorist organizations. However; I think our FO is acting in a mature manner. After considering the evidence we accepted. India was sounding the war drums from day one without any proof that they had shared. I think this comes at as a big blow to India who are it seems eager for war. They are "urgently" upgrading their Mig 27s.

And my fiancee wanted to travel to meet me next week. She could not get a visa. I wanted to make a work/school related trip which I couldn't make last month. So whatever is happening is affecting me more than your armchair generals here. Oh well; that's life.

read this:

http://www.economist.com/world....cfm?story_id=12906520

Dodging the dossier
Jan 8th 2009
From The Economist print edition


Exasperated with Pakistan, India tries international diplomacy?for now

EVER since the attack on Mumbai in November that left over 170 people dead, India has thundered against Pakistan?s complicity in the atrocity. But this has produced neither a full Pakistani admission of responsibility nor the requested surrender of terrorist suspects to India. This week India stepped up its efforts. It released a dossier of evidence to Pakistan and other governments. And it sharpened its accusation against Pakistan?s government. More than simply ignoring or conniving at preparations for the attack, argued India?s prime minister, Manmohan Singh, some of its agencies must have been actively involved in an operation of such sophistication.

The dossier includes the interrogation of the one surviving attacker, intercepted communications, and the evidence of their weaponry. Pakistan had insisted it had seen no evidence linking the government?or indeed, until this week, any Pakistani citizens?to an attack it blamed on ?stateless actors?. And it suggests that India might be planning military reprisals. India has denied this, but Pakistan has moved troops from the Afghan border in readiness. Indian diplomats say the talk of a threat from India is a smokescreen to divert attention from Pakistan?s failure to tackle the real issue: its nurturing of terrorists.

They do not spell out the implication of their analysis (though many private Indian commentators do): that if elements of the Pakistani army and government were involved in the attack, their intention was precisely to create friction with India. This would enable them to move troops from an unpopular war on the Afghan border. And it would reassert the dominant role of the army and its intelligence service over a notionally civilian government.

This puts India in a bind. If it responds belligerently, it plays into Pakistan?s hands. But if it rules out military action its threats are toothless. Hence it has mounted a concerted diplomatic drive to persuade Pakistan?s allies?notably America and Britain?to put pressure on its government and army to roll up the terrorist networks.

Pakistan will respond by emphasising the fragility of civilian rule; the army?s self-proclaimed role as a bulwark against Islamic fundamentalism; and its vital contribution to the West?s war in Afghanistan. In the past, these arguments have enabled Pakistan to withstand efforts to confront the terrorists. Now, however, public anger in India is such that if the government has nothing to show for its diplomatic blitzkrieg?or worse still, if there is another attack linked to Pakistan?it may be forced to bare its teeth after all.

India has not been beating the war drums but has been pointing the finger where it should point - to Pakistan. Unfortunately Pakistan has been in denial, mainly due to pressure from the military which seeks to minimize its involvement in terrorist activities.

Maybe it's time for you to open your eyes and see the reality.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
So what if the terrorist came from Pakistan? We know we are victims of terrorism. But it's hardly easy to bring down a terrorist network that is the taliban. If the USA is failing in Iraq and Afghanistan; what about the huge underworlds in the USA and India. It's not easy to dismantle terrorist organizations. However; I think our FO is acting in a mature manner. After considering the evidence we accepted. India was sounding the war drums from day one without any proof that they had shared. I think this comes at as a big blow to India who are it seems eager for war. They are "urgently" upgrading their Mig 27s.

And my fiancee wanted to travel to meet me next week. She could not get a visa. I wanted to make a work/school related trip which I couldn't make last month. So whatever is happening is affecting me more than your armchair generals here. Oh well; that's life.

Quit making excuses. Instead, motivate every decent man, woman, and child in Pakistan to get off their collective asses and rid your country of every last terrorist -- even if it comes down to stabbing every single one of them in their sleep and seeing your streets run with evil terrorist blood.

Until that happens, the fingers will continue to point at Pakistan's incompetence and impotence; and the rest of the world will continue to rightfully accuse Pakistan of being the world's largest exporter of terrorism.

Fix it.

now.

 

[The Green Bean]

Damn Indians won't let us live in peace. The threats of war are back and they're threatening to cut of all transport and business links. http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/co...tan-troop-movements-ts

I see it nothing more than pre-elections propaganda. They have to be careful not to overdo it though. If they bring this war upon themselves they will be sorry. Damn Indian propaganda makes my blood boil. Just look at online Media from Pakistan and India and notice the difference in tone. Fucking ridiculous! The damn Indian government is refusing to accept part of the blame for flaws in security and is trying to get out of jail by blaming us. Idiots!

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Damn Indians won't let us live in peace. The threats of war are back and they're threatening to cut of all transport and business links. http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/co...tan-troop-movements-ts

I see it nothing more than pre-elections propaganda. They have to be careful not to overdo it though. If they bring this war upon themselves they will be sorry. Damn Indian propaganda makes my blood boil. Just look at online Media from Pakistan and India and notice the difference in tone. Fucking ridiculous! The damn Indian government is refusing to accept part of the blame for flaws in security and is trying to get out of jail by blaming us. Idiots!

Yeah, those damn Indians! How dare they respond to terrorism!

Speaking of propaganda, you're basically a mouthpiece for Pakistani propaganda on this message board. Are you even aware of that?

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Damn Indians won't let us live in peace. The threats of war are back and they're threatening to cut of all transport and business links. http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/co...tan-troop-movements-ts

I see it nothing more than pre-elections propaganda. They have to be careful not to overdo it though. If they bring this war upon themselves they will be sorry. Damn Indian propaganda makes my blood boil. Just look at online Media from Pakistan and India and notice the difference in tone. Fucking ridiculous! The damn Indian government is refusing to accept part of the blame for flaws in security and is trying to get out of jail by blaming us. Idiots!

Yeah, those damn Indians! How dare they respond to terrorism!

Speaking of propaganda, you're basically a mouthpiece for Pakistani propaganda on this message board. Are you even aware of that?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to feel its my job to censor anyone who tries to set themselves up as the propaganda police. IMHO TheGreenBean has as much right to express his views
as anyone else, and there is no shortage of posters who spew various sides propaganda. If nothing else its a gage of emotions expressed, and human emotions
are as valid as hard and provable facts in terms of driving collective behavior.

Its our jobs as readers to filter out what we think is propaganda, and rebut it with facts. There is evidently much Indian anger out there, and its not helping to see
both sides engaging in Propaganda rather than working towards seeing incidents like the Mumbai terrorist do not recur.

In terms of the deeper reasons for the Mumbai attack, it was, IMHO, a cynical terrorist plot to force the Pakistan army into taking the pressure off of the tribal
areas of Pakistan and divert them to the Indian border, it seems to be working, and do we want the terrorists to win?

If not, wise up and think.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Damn Indians won't let us live in peace. The threats of war are back and they're threatening to cut of all transport and business links. http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/co...tan-troop-movements-ts

I see it nothing more than pre-elections propaganda. They have to be careful not to overdo it though. If they bring this war upon themselves they will be sorry. Damn Indian propaganda makes my blood boil. Just look at online Media from Pakistan and India and notice the difference in tone. Fucking ridiculous! The damn Indian government is refusing to accept part of the blame for flaws in security and is trying to get out of jail by blaming us. Idiots!

Yeah, those damn Indians! How dare they respond to terrorism!

Speaking of propaganda, you're basically a mouthpiece for Pakistani propaganda on this message board. Are you even aware of that?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to feel its my job to censor anyone who tries to set themselves up as the propaganda police. IMHO TheGreenBean has as much right to express his views
as anyone else, and there is no shortage of posters who spew various sides propaganda. If nothing else its a gage of emotions expressed, and human emotions
are as valid as hard and provable facts in terms of driving collective behavior.

Its our jobs as readers to filter out what we think is propaganda, and rebut it with facts. There is evidently much Indian anger out there, and its not helping to see
both sides engaging in Propaganda rather than working towards seeing incidents like the Mumbai terrorist do not recur.

In terms of the deeper reasons for the Mumbai attack, it was, IMHO, a cynical terrorist plot to force the Pakistan army into taking the pressure off of the tribal
areas of Pakistan and divert them to the Indian border, it seems to be working, and do we want the terrorists to win?

If not, wise up and think.

Wow, you feel it is your job to censor people who are the "propaganda police?" Nowhere did I say TGB has no right to say what he says - I only said it was propaganda. Maybe you need to think before you post.

 

[Caesar]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Damn Indians won't let us live in peace. The threats of war are back and they're threatening to cut of all transport and business links. http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/co...tan-troop-movements-ts

I see it nothing more than pre-elections propaganda. They have to be careful not to overdo it though. If they bring this war upon themselves they will be sorry. Damn Indian propaganda makes my blood boil. Just look at online Media from Pakistan and India and notice the difference in tone. Fucking ridiculous! The damn Indian government is refusing to accept part of the blame for flaws in security and is trying to get out of jail by blaming us. Idiots!

LOL! The damn Pakistanis will only be able to live in peace when they have gotten rid of all the terrorists they have growing their country. India has every right to go this far because your country does not do enough. Now even after them recognizing that the terrorists were Pakistanis they are not doing anything. Have they taken any action against LeT?

 

[palehorse]

stop exporting terrorism.

 

[The Green Bean]

India knew about the attacks 5 days before they happened. They didnt do anything. If that's not their fault whose is it?

MUMBAI: India government had received the vital and critical intelligence five days before Mumbai attacks which had been simply ignored.

According to Indian web site Tehlka.com, sources in the highest quarters in New Delhi have told that the mobile numbers that were used by the Mumbai terrorists were available with the Intelligence Bureau at least five days before 26/11.

Highly placed sources shared the contents of a ?Secret? note that contains 35 mobile numbers. Of the 35 SIM cards, 32 had been purchased from Kolkata and three from Delhi and sent to Pakistan-adminstered Kashmir by mid- November.

Highly placed sources reveal that crucial and stunning piece of information was received by the Intelligence Bureau (IB) on 21 November, at least five full days before Ajmal Amir Kasav, the lone surviving terrorist and his nine accomplices got off the inflatable dinghy at Mumbai?s Badhwar Park on the evening of 26/11.


The Prime Minister and Home Minister are aware that for all the five crucial days that the numbers were available, they were not being monitored. The lapse is all the more critical because at least three of the 32 numbers contained in the Secret note, were the exact same cell numbers that the Mumbai terrorists used to keep in touch with their handlers in Pakistan.

It is well possible that the terrorists only activated their mobile numbers after reaching Mumbai but that does not excuse the fact that the numbers were not put under surveillance despite the knowledge that they had been sent to trained militants in PoK.

On 18 September, for example, the Research and Analysis Wing had intercepted a satellite phone conversation, which clearly indicated that a hotel at the Gateway of India in Mumbai would be targeted.

Crucially, the intercept also revealed that the sea route would be used to launch this operation. Again, on 24 September, RAW recorded another conversation. This time, the hotels were mentioned by name and they included the Taj, the Sea Rock Hotel and the Marriott hotel. If these inputs were being analysed, it would have become clearer that hotels in Mumbai would be attacked and that the sea route would be used.

Security breached ease with which Mumbai came under attack brought back the question of internal security.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
India knew about the attacks 5 days before they happened. They didnt do anything. If that's not their fault whose is it?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahaahhhaaaaaaaaa....

You amuse me greenbean, please don't ever stop posting here.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse
stop exporting terrorism.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheer up, palehorse, to many in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the larger world, it the USA and Nato who are viewed as the imported terrorists.

One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter cuts both ways.

And after all the money, lives, and property damage expended in the so called "war on terrorism", we have managed to create more terrorists than we had before. And that is no propaganda line BS, that comes from our own National Intelligence Assessment.

Nato and the US military may be far better armed and better able to control the air, sea, and sky, and better able to self import them selves, but your definition of terrorists are every bit as intelligent, and far more aware of their limitations.

When we manage to drive moderates out of the political processes, extremists on all sides are empowered.

 

[piasabird]

Maybe they will Nuke each other.

I just saw this special on PBS about how great India is. They made it look like India was the peaceful loving country. It probably is a very peaceful, loving country for the most part. The question arises "why Muslim terrorists want to kill people in India?"

 

[Caesar]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Maybe they will Nuke each other.

I just saw this special on PBS about how great India is. They made it look like India was the peaceful loving country. It probably is a very peaceful, loving country for the most part. The question arises "why Muslim terrorists want to kill people in India?"

Just the same reasons these "muslim terrorists" want to kill Americans, Jews and everybody else. Are you seriously looking for a reason why terrorists kill people?

 

[Lemon law]

Historically, India has been a battleground front line in wars of religion, and Hindu's, Buddists, and Muslims as well as other sects, have battled back and forth long before the British came. And the British, in a divide and conquer strategy, exploited Indian religious difference to their own advantages. And it took a Gandhi to finally temporarily unite what he called the two eyes of India in the Muslims and Hindus. And once Gandhi pulled that off by force of personality, he was finally able to tell the Brits, don't go away mad, just go away. But like Tito in Yugoslavia, ancient back and forth battlegrounds of two or more competing religions
tend to suddenly remember all their old hatreds once the temporary force uniting them is removed.

And while we tend to concentrate on the latest piece of terrorism in the Mumbai attack, in the past five years, there have been countless Indian home grown Hindu mob attacks on Muslims
and quite a few not originating from Pakistan Muslim attacks on Hindus.

Which says nothing about Pakistan, other than its being destabilized from the West in Afghanistan, Afghan terrorists are being pushed into Pakistan's loosely held tribal regions where the locals don't like the Pakistani army interfering with their autonomy either. And at least IMHO, those terrorists shove back by brewing up trouble in their own divide and conquer strategy by brewing up trouble in India. And to the extent that its diverted the Pakistani army South and east and away of the tribal regions, from their point of view, its worked brilliantly.

But the mistake, IMHO, is to knee jerk blame Pakistan. All that does is to empower extremists in India and Pakistan, and the whole Kashmir dispute was explosive as it was.

I think if anyone reads the recent history, the hypothesis of India as a hotbed of inner tranquility and religious harmony fails the first sniff tests.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Maybe they will Nuke each other.

I just saw this special on PBS about how great India is. They made it look like India was the peaceful loving country. It probably is a very peaceful, loving country for the most part. The question arises "why Muslim terrorists want to kill people in India?"

India is anything but a peaceful country. I'll start with the internet conflicts and probably will miss many.


Maoist insurgency
http://www.alertnet.org/db/cri...IN_MAO.htm?v=in_detail

Caste system violence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...ated_violence_in_India

Gujarat Civil War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence

Religious violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...ious_violence_in_India

Kashmir violence (I don't need links for this do I?)

Bombay Hindu Muslim riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Riots

Aligarh Riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Aligarh_Riots

Anti SIKH riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Anti-Sikh_massacre

And many more...

Foreign Relations:

India has territorial disputes with almost all her neighbors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...iaforeignrelations.png

Just a few days back while during the Mumbai fiasco there was tension on the Bangladeshi border as well. Indian ships were apparently exploiting and searching of resources in Bangladeshi waters. The situation is still tense.

India has fought a war with China and India's relations with Pakistan have never been better than bad. India's relations with Sri Lanka are also pretty bad. India has been accused by the Lankans of funding the Tamil Tiger terrorists.

Peaceful? My ass!

No nuclear-armed country can claim to be peaceful. Not the USA, not China, not Pakistan, not Israel not India. None can be called peaceful or peace loving. I also believe that Asia should be first in showing the world the way to nuclear disarmament. However that will not happen. As long as the USA doesn't disarm first; China won't. If China won't, India won't. If India won't Pakistan won't. And neither will the terrorist IDF.

 

[The Green Bean]

rare good news
http://geo.tv/1-15-2009/32728.htm

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: palehorse
stop exporting terrorism.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheer up, palehorse, to many in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the larger world -- including myself -- , it's the USA and Nato who are viewed as the imported terrorists.

fixed.

Congrats on discovering the quote function btw...

/golfclap

 

[Whitecloak]

tgb's threads are golden.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: palehorse
stop exporting terrorism.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheer up, palehorse, to many in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the larger world -- including myself -- , it's the USA and Nato who are viewed as the imported terrorists.

fixed.

Congrats on discovering the quote function btw...

/golfclap

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
palehorse, the quote function is all well and fine, but when you add or subtract something from someone Else's quote, it simply makes you into a liar.

What I do or do not personally believe may not matter, but when 200 million people in the region do not think all that highly of Nato, it matters a great deal. And denying what many Afghans think is a greater distortion. And in that, you only fool yourself as Nato is sadly failing in Afghanistan. And those results are very hard to deny.

 

[The Green Bean]

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan?s High Commissioner to India Shahid Malik has received a death threat from an Indian extremist group, Dawn learnt Saturday.
The organization has also threatened to bomb Pakistan?s parliament, high commission in Delhi and other places in the country amidst strained relations between New Delhi and Islamabad in the aftermath of the Mumbai terrorist attacks.
The threat, made by a previously unknown group ?All India Anti-Terrorism Group? (AIATG), has prompted a strong reaction by Islamabad, which has lodged a protest with New Delhi and asked for better security for the envoy.
India, a source said, has been told that it would be held responsible in case of any harm to the high commissioner.
?The safety, security and welfare of the envoy is paramount in Pakistan?s response to these threats,? the source said.
The three-page threatening letter delivered by surface mail at Pakistan?s high commission asked the high commissioner to leave Delhi in three days or else face dire consequences.
?We don?t need to make any kind of relation and also no place for any Pakistani in our country (sic),? a person claiming to be the chief of AIATG wrote in the letter, further warning that if the threat is taken lightly ?it is 200% sure? he would be killed.
Additionally, the letter threatened bombing of the parliament in Islamabad, high commission in Delhi and other places in Pakistan. For this purpose, the letter said, the sub-groups of AIATG namely Students of Hinduism Movement in India and Pakistan, Students Against Terrorism, and Pride of India were already active.
The letter gave 11 reasons for forming the anti-Pakistan group and said: ?you can understand we have many reasons to take lethal steps towards you and your country, so tell your government that we are mad, zealot and thirsty of Pakistani blood (sic).?
The relations between the two neighbours have been strained after the Mumbai terrorist attack that was blamed by India on an extremist group Lashkar-e-Taiba operating from Pakistan.
The threatening letter was the latest indication of increased activities of hate groups in India in the wake of Mumbai attack that have previously seen TV comedian Shahid Siddiqui thrown out of a Mumbai studio by a group called Maharastra Nav Nirman Sena. The group had also forced booksellers to remove books of Pakistani authors from their shelves.
The threat came as a group of civil society activists was in India on a peace mission to prevent further deterioration in ties.

Now it's India's turn to act. If there is a terrorist attack on Pakistan... hard to say what will happen but things will get bad really quick.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Now it's India's turn to act. If there is a terrorist attack on Pakistan... hard to say what will happen but things will get bad really quick.

I see that you're still trying to find a way to blame India for your mess of a country.

sad that.

Stop exporting terrorism.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Now it's India's turn to act. If there is a terrorist attack on Pakistan... hard to say what will happen but things will get bad really quick.

I see that you're still trying to find a way to blame India for your mess of a country.

sad that.

Stop exporting terrorism.

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