India - Pakistan Crisis

[cyclohexane]

this a just an epic penis contest between two countries, it's not going to lead to war.

 

[crisscross]

Originally posted by: tvarad

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
.....

Firstly, Pakistan is as much a major military power as India, in the sense that they are both untouchable. Nuclear nations do not risk war because of the risk of nuclear bombardment. If India launched an attack on Pakistan and the war escalated, which is probably will considering the tensions on the sub-continent, we are looking at close to 500 million people dead on both sides and a limited nuclear winter globally.

There's no point in growing 10" claws if you don't have enough food to sustain the body. The question is when the body gives up. The military has commandeered all Pakistani institutions to finance this power and play big boy military games. Pakistan just doesn't have critical mass to sustain it forever.

Secondly, The US has as much say in Pakistan's nuclear deterrent as the US does in Russia's nuclear deterrent, and that is almost none. The Pakistan military holds the keys to the nukes, not the US president.

And yet it took just 24 hours after a phone call from Colin Powell for the military to change a course that it had been charting for more than two decades. If the military had b*lls why don't they use a couple of their nukes on the Americans for violating their sovereignty with impunity on the Western border?

Finally, India has nothing to gain and everything to lose, just as Pakistan has nothing to gain and everything to lose. The destruction of a few, probably already abandoned, terrorist camps? Really? Attacking the Pakistani chain of command is the quickest way to have 15 major Indian cities glowing by the day's end.

Really, this is the gist of any argument vis-a-vis Pakistan, right? The Pakistani military establishment is holding not just India, but the world at nuclear ransom. However, if the terrorist thugs pull off another Mumbai massacre or two, I seriously doubt that any Indian Govt. will be able to head off public opinion and not go after them on Pakistani soil one way or another.

As for India, the fundamental mistake it made was to dismantle it's formidable spy agency RAW's capabilities in the '70s after the '71 war was won. The only option it really has between now and the time Pakistan collapses from within is to revive this agency's capabilities on a war footing and go after thugs like Masood Azhar with targeted assassinations. I seriously doubt though that there's any military acumen in the current Indian Govt. to revive RAW or take other pro-active steps.

Tvarad: I am amazed the world still doesn't get it. They think that what Pakistan does is a threat only to India and doesn't affect them. One would have thought after 9/11 things would change but no.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I have seen the same basic news as tvarad has when he states "Swat has been overrun by extremists as we speak."

But from what I have seem, its only some 2,000 Taliban fighters doing the occupying of the Swat valley, so I would imagine Pakistani Government forces could easily take it back. And faced with massed Government strength and better weapons, its more like, IMHO, that the Taliban fighters would simply fade away rather than make a fight of it, hoping to come back later. But such is the nature of a gorilla war.

As General Petraeus says, Nato will not be able to kill its way to victory

Are you referring to the same Pakistani Government that has failed to "take it back" for more than eight years now!??

wow...

 

[crisscross]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I have seen the same basic news as tvarad has when he states "Swat has been overrun by extremists as we speak."

But from what I have seem, its only some 2,000 Taliban fighters doing the occupying of the Swat valley, so I would imagine Pakistani Government forces could easily take it back. And faced with massed Government strength and better weapons, its more like, IMHO, that the Taliban fighters would simply fade away rather than make a fight of it, hoping to come back later. But such is the nature of a gorilla war.

As General Petraeus says, Nato will not be able to kill its way to victory

umm what? almost ALL independent sources have reported that little if any of the US military and economic aid goes to fighting terrorists. All the money is either going into the pockets of corrupt Govt. and military officials or in buying arms targeted against India.

It blows my mind how are you Americans be so naive about Pakistan's actions?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: crisscross

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I have seen the same basic news as tvarad has when he states "Swat has been overrun by extremists as we speak."

But from what I have seem, its only some 2,000 Taliban fighters doing the occupying of the Swat valley, so I would imagine Pakistani Government forces could easily take it back. And faced with massed Government strength and better weapons, its more like, IMHO, that the Taliban fighters would simply fade away rather than make a fight of it, hoping to come back later. But such is the nature of a gorilla war.

As General Petraeus says, Nato will not be able to kill its way to victory

umm what? almost ALL independent sources have reported that little if any of the US military and economic aid goes to fighting terrorists. All the money is either going into the pockets of corrupt Govt. and military officials or in buying arms targeted against India.

It blows my mind how are you Americans be so naive about Pakistan's actions?

It is those that are blinded by the "goodness" of people and if "the olive branch is extended, it will be taken" mindset that meet your definition.

There are others that realize that evil will not voluntarily change until forced.

 

[tvarad]

So the post that started this thread (no evidence of Pakistani involvement) has been officially debunked. TGB, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

Official: Pakistani confesses to Mumbai attacks

By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writer Kathy Gannon, Associated Press Writer ? 11 mins ago

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan ? A militant arrested in Pakistan has confessed involvement in the Mumbai terror attacks and is giving investigators details of the plot, a senior Pakistani government official said Wednesday.

The revelation could add to pressure on Islamabad to either bring Zarar Shah and other suspects to trial or extradite them to India.

"(Shah) has made some statement that he was involved," said the government official, without providing specific details. "I can tell you that he is singing."

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the topic.

Shah's confession was first reported in the Wall Street Journal.

....

Full Story on Yahoo! News.

 

[sciwizam]

Here's the Wall Street Journal referred in the Yahoo story: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123068308893944123.html

 

[dawheat]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: dawheat

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: crisscross
Instead of going into Iraq, if GWB really cared about making the world a safer place he should have gone into Pakistan and dismantled their Nuclear weapons. The reason why Pakistan is doing it does is because it has nukes and every time India threatens to take action. Pakistan runs to mummy and cries of a Nuclear conflict.

So you mean to say that India's threats are justified. You are sick, twisted and brainwashed. And lets see you try and take our nuclear weapons. Tel Aviv and your bases in the region will be wastelands come what may.

Small words from a small country.

Obviously removing dispersed nuclear weapons from a country would be a nontrivial task, but flexing your nukes at India is a different story than flexing them at Israel or other major US installations (I suppose if you nuke Afganstan, you'd be doing us a favor).

In a purely hypothetical sense, once you remove the fixed Pakisanti long range missiles from play, they're reduce to aircraft delivered bombs. Whether several dozen F-16s can break through a fully mobilized USAF or IDF with airbourne radar support is highly debatable.

Bark all you want at India, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you're a major military or nuclear power.

Drop a bomb on Diego Garcia and all of Pakistan would be glassed - sound like a road you want to go down?

wtf? Do you even know how difficult it is to shoot an ballistic missile out of the air with another missile? It can't be done. The best US systems fail 50% in controlled settings (eg clear daytime, known trajectory, known intercept coordinates). Pakistan has hundreds of missiles that reach deep into Indian territory, all of them nuclear capable.

Firstly, Pakistan is as much a major military power as India, in the sense that they are both untouchable. Nuclear nations do not risk war because of the risk of nuclear bombardment. If India launched an attack on Pakistan and the war escalated, which is probably will considering the tensions on the sub-continent, we are looking at close to 500 million people dead on both sides and a limited nuclear winter globally.

Secondly, The US has as much say in Pakistan's nuclear deterrent as the US does in Russia's nuclear deterrent, and that is almost none. The Pakistan military holds the keys to the nukes, not the US president.

Finally, India has nothing to gain and everything to lose, just as Pakistan has nothing to gain and everything to lose. The destruction of a few, probably already abandoned, terrorist camps? Really? Attacking the Pakistani chain of command is the quickest way to have 15 major Indian cities glowing by the day's end.

To clarify I was only addressing the OP's threat to attack Israel and US installations, not India. India clearly has as much to lose in a nuclear conflict as Pakistan does - for ever Indian city glowing, you'd have the same in Pakistan.

Most of Pakistan's ballistic missiles do not have the range to reach Israel - the Shaheen-III, which may, is currently in development. In a strike-first philosophy, the US would hit them on the ground before they could be launched. Couple B-2 with deep penetrating bombs would make quick work of them.

Like I said, bark at India all you want, but piss off otherwise.

 

[GroundedSailor]

FBI set to present proof to Islamabad

FBI set to present proof to Islamabad
2 Jan 2009, 0158 hrs IST, TNN


NEW DELHI: Clinching and incontrovertible proof that the Mumbai terror attack was planned on and launched from Pakistani soil by Pakistanis will soon be presented to Islamabad by American sleuths after the FBI records enough evidence.

At all levels, from President Asif Ali Zardari to diplomats at the high commission in New Delhi, Pakistan has steadfastly denied that Ajmal Amir Kasab, the lone captured terrorist, is one of its nationals and rejected the huge body of evidence that proved the attackers were Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives, trained with the help of ISI, in Pakistani camps.

But soon, Islamabad will have little choice but to accept the Indian contention because an independent US-led investigation will not only present similar facts but Washington will insist that those suspected to be involved in the attack be handed over to the FBI.

These evidences include transcripts of conversations between the assailants and LeT commanders, Zaki-ur Rehman Lakhvi and Zarar Shah. The other two Lashkar commanders who passed on directives to terrorists using Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) calls were Abu Qafa and Abu Hamza. The media in the US and UK has reported that Washington has already handed over tapes of Shah's conversations with the terrorists to Islamabad.

Since six American nationals were among the 173 people killed in Mumbai, the FBI is required by US laws to probe the Mumbai attacks. The agency is also required to file a case and conduct a trial in an American court of law, sources said.

The evidence that FBI has includes the details of satphone and VoIP calls, the GPS device used by the attackers to reach Mumbai, and the email sent in the name of Deccan Mujahideen to own up the massacre which has now been traced to Zarar Shah.

A vindicated India on Thursday again asked Pakistan to hand over the suspects in light of the ``strong evidence'' which has been delivered to Islamabad by the US. ``We have been told that there is some strong evidence available with FBI and they have shared it with Pakistan. We expect that Pakistan will act on them and hand over the perpetrators of the terror attack in Mumbai to us,'' external affairs minister Pranab Mukherjee told a news channel, adding that Pakistan had not yet taken any ``tangible'' action against the perpetrators.

A source, in the know of progress of the US investigation, said Pakistan would never agree to hand over the suspects to India and in the absence of an extradition treaty between Delhi and Islamabad, even US pressure would have little impact. But if FBI registers a case and books Pakistani nationals as suspects, then Islamabad would have little option but to allow the American agency to arrest suspects like Shah and Lakhvi and even Hafiz Saeed, the LeT chief.

Reports on Thursday said an FBI team visited Faridkot in Pakistan's Punjab province, Kasab's native village. Geo TV said the five-member FBI team was headed by its South Asian director William Robert. Last month, Pakistani dailies said Kasab's father had admitted that his son was one of the Mumbai terrorists.

That an American probe was gathering pace was evident from reports in the US media on Wednesday about Shah, the LeT communications head, admitting to being a lead planner of the Mumbai attacks. US officers are already in Pakistan to probe Shah's role and may also take him and others like Lakhvi. Shah and Lakhvi had spoken to the attackers during the operations and transcripts are with the US agency, sources said.

As recently as August 2008, a US court obtained extradition of Taliban combatant Aafia Siddiqui, a US-educated 36-year-old Pakistani neuroscientist, who was accused of shooting at US soldiers in Afghanistan.

Sources said that investigations by the FBI have confirmed that the location of satellite phones used by LeT commanders to talk to the assailants while they were on their way to Mumbai, had been in Pakistan for months.
The VoIP calls to and from the cellphones of terrorists when the attacks were on have also been traced to Lashkar leaders in Pakistan.

The phones used by the terrorists in the two hotels had almost melted because of the fire that broke out, but FBI experts still managed to cull out call details and other relevant data once Indian authorities handed over the phones to them.

US intelligence chief John McConnell was said to have confirmed during his visit to India that one of the numbers logged on the satellite phone the terrorists used while navigating their way to Mumbai belonged to known Lashkar terrorist Abu Al Qama. Indian intelligence officials are familiar with the Thuraya satellite phone that Qama uses. The US, using its leverage with Sharjah, where Thuraya is headquartered, corroborated this fact.

The FBI is also said to have established independently that the email claiming responsibility for the attack was sent from Pakistan. The mail was sent in the name of Deccan Mujahideen and its IP address was traced to Russia. Indian agencies, however, had claimed that a proxy server was used to send the mail from Pakistan. Shah, investigations have revealed, was the man who sent the mail.

Why does Pakistan still take a head in the sand attitude and deny any involvement of its citizens in the attack? Or even that it was planned on Pakistani soil? Doesn't every country have bad elements or criminals? After all it's not as if anyone is accusing the Pakistani Govt of being involved. But their denials and apparent covering up does open their motives to further questions.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Why does Pakistan still take a head in the sand attitude and deny any involvement of its citizens in the attack? Or even that it was planned on Pakistani soil? Doesn't every country have bad elements or criminals? After all it's not as if anyone is accusing the Pakistani Govt of being involved. But their denials and apparent covering up does open their motives to further questions.

I think they're afraid what the terrorists might have to say once they're in custody. Everyone knows that the ISI has very close ties with LeT, the Taliban, and Al Qaeda. The Pakistani government and military are some of the most corrupt agencies in the world. They may not have been complicit in the Mumbai attacks themselves, but their history of cooperation and coordination with such terrorist groups may be enough for them to hide the suspects and bury that truth. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if all of the primary LeT suspects have "accidents" soon...

It's also a matter of pride. Since Pakistan really has no reason to remain proud in the 21st century, their defiance of Indian dominance in the region is about all they have left.

The combination of these two factors will prevent Pakistan from doing the right thing 99% of the time.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor
Why does Pakistan still take a head in the sand attitude and deny any involvement of its citizens in the attack? Or even that it was planned on Pakistani soil? Doesn't every country have bad elements or criminals? After all it's not as if anyone is accusing the Pakistani Govt of being involved. But their denials and apparent covering up does open their motives to further questions.

I think they're afraid what the terrorists might have to say once they're in custody. Everyone knows that the ISI has very close ties with LeT, the Taliban, and Al Qaeda. The Pakistani government and military are some of the most corrupt agencies in the world. They may not have been complicit in the Mumbai attacks themselves, but their history of cooperation and coordination with such terrorist groups may be enough for them to hide the suspects and bury that truth. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if all of the primary LeT suspects have "accidents" soon...

It's also a matter of pride. Since Pakistan really has no reason to remain proud in the 21st century, their defiance of Indian dominance in the region is about all they have left.

The combination of these two factors will prevent Pakistan from doing the right thing 99% of the time.

People cutting deals (squealing) to save their skins would prove to be very embarrassing.

Pakistan may still claim the evidence is fabricated. The US could not be neutral because they provide evidence against Pakistan. From the Pakistani view, the US would be neutral if the evidence pointed to inside India.


Similar to the situation in South America where the laptop was found with emails between the Rebels and Venezuela. Chavez swore that the info was bogus even when an internationl body verified the info. Then the laptop was claimed to have been planted.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Pakistan may still claim the evidence is fabricated. The US could not be neutral because they provide evidence against Pakistan. From the Pakistani view, the US would be neutral if the evidence pointed to inside India.

Similar to the situation in South America where the laptop was found with emails between the Rebels and Venezuela. Chavez swore that the info was bogus even when an internationl body verified the info. Then the laptop was claimed to have been planted.

I can almost guarantee that's what Pakistan will claim. After all, there are idiots out there -- TheGreenBean included -- who still demand more "proof" that Al Qaeda and OBL were behind 9/11.

Pakistan seems to be the denial capital of the world right now...

 

[GroundedSailor]

Well lets see how they spin this. Will Pakistan still be in denial?

India gives Pakistan evidence in Mumbai attacks

India gives Pakistan evidence in Mumbai attacks

The Associated Press
Monday, January 5, 2009

NEW DELHI: India gave Pakistan what it says is the most detailed evidence yet tying the militants who attacked Mumbai to "elements" in Pakistan on Monday, responding to weeks of demands from Islamabad for proof that the siege began across the border.

India has blamed Pakistani-based militants for the attacks in November that killed 163 people, but Islamabad has denied the accusations and requested proof.

The evidence handed to the Pakistani ambassador in New Delhi included material from the interrogation of the lone surviving gunman, alleged details of conversations between the gunmen and handlers in Pakistan, recovered weapons and data from satellite phones, according to a statement from the Indian Foreign Ministry.

"This material is linked to elements in Pakistan," the ministry statement said. "It is our expectation that the government of Pakistan will promptly undertake further investigations in Pakistan and share the results with us so as to bring the perpetrators to justice."

A Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman, Mohammed Sadiq, said the authorities were reviewing the evidence and would not elaborate.

India has laid the attack to Lashkar-e-Taiba, a militant group based in Pakistan, where the authorities have arrested at least two men accused of planning the attacks and began a nationwide crackdown on a charity believed to be a front for Lashkar.

India has called on Pakistan to hand over the suspects and to dismantle what they say is a terrorism network based across the border. Pakistani leaders say they would try any suspects in the attacks in their own courts.

Much of India's evidence against the militants comes from interrogations of Muhammad Ajmal Kasab, the only gunman to survive the attacks. He has reportedly told the authorities that he and nine others were Pakistani, that he was trained in Pakistan and that his handlers are still there.

Pakistan has said it has no record of Kasab as a Pakistani citizen.

The Mumbai attacks began Nov. 26 and lasted for nearly three days. The 10 gunmen attacked 10 sites across Mumbai, the Indian financial capital, including two five-star hotels, the main railroad station, popular restaurants and a Jewish center.

 

[palehorse]

I can't wait to read TGB's response to the evidence... $10 says he calls "bullshit!" and demands more "evidence" that he will never accept.... rinse and repeat.

any takers?

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: palehorse
I can't wait to read TGB's response to the evidence... $10 says he calls "bullshit!" and demands more "evidence" that he will never accept.... rinse and repeat.

any takers?

The deniers are gonna love this!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01...d/asia/07india.html?hp

January 7, 2009
India Accuses Pakistani ?Agencies?
By SOMINI SENGUPTA and JEREMY KAHN

NEW DELHI ? Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India accused unspecified official agencies in Pakistan on Tuesday of supporting the gunmen who struck in Mumbai in late November. He was speaking one day after India handed Pakistan what it said was the first comprehensive evidence linking Pakistan to an alleged ?conspiracy? hatched on Pakistani soil.

?Given the sophistication and military precision of the attack, it must have had the support of some official agencies in Pakistan,? Mr. Singh told a security conference here.

Pakistan rejected the accusation, saying India had embarked on a propaganda offensive.

?Instead of responding positively to Pakistan?s offer of cooperation and constructive proposals, India has chosen to embark on a propaganda offensive,? the foreign ministry said in a statement, Reuters reported.

India has demanded that those responsible for the Mumbai attack be tried in Indian courts, a demand likely to be rebuffed.

Speaking Monday evening to reporters here, the Indian foreign secretary, Shiv Shankar Menon, refused to say whether the suspected Mumbai conspirators were connected to current or retired government officials, but said that it was unlikely that a sophisticated, commando-style assault, like the one in Mumbai in late November, ?could occur without anybody anywhere in the establishment knowing it was happening.?

While Mr. Menon refused to specify whether India had evidence of complicity of Pakistan?s military or spy agency officials, he did not rule it out. ?We are not going to say this is where the line ends,? he said.

In a presentation to a number of foreign diplomats earlier in the day, Indian officials detailed the involvement of retired Pakistani military officials in training the gunmen who carried out the Mumbai attacks, according to two diplomats present.

The envoys, speaking on condition of anonymity in keeping with typical diplomatic protocol, said the 100-page dossier included transcripts of telephone conversations between the gunmen and their superiors in Pakistan during the course of the attacks; transcripts of interrogations of the sole surviving gunman, Muhammad Ajmal Kasab; phone numbers in Pakistan that the attackers called as they sailed across the Arabian Sea from Karachi, Pakistan, to Mumbai, India; and details of their movements, recovered from a GPS unit they had used.

In the three-day siege of Mumbai, gunmen attacked two luxury hotels, a railway station, a tourist restaurant, a Jewish center and other sites. The attacks killed 163 people, along with 9 of the 10 suspected gunmen.

The Indian authorities say the gunmen were citizens of Pakistan and belonged to a banned terrorist group, Lashkar-e-Taiba. The police have said that during interrogation, Mr. Kasab said he had been trained by retired Pakistani military men.

Immediately after the attacks, India assigned blame to ?elements? in Pakistan, taking pains not to accuse members of the government, which pledged to cooperate and announced the closing of camps of Lashkar-e-Taiba and its charitable wing, Jamaat-ud-Dawa.

Yet as India points out, the government in Islamabad permitted some of the groups? activities to continue unimpeded.

India previously gave Pakistan what it said was a letter written by Mr. Kasab, describing himself as Pakistani and requesting Pakistani legal assistance. Officials in Islamabad have said they have no record of Mr. Kasab in their central registry.

Throughout the tense diplomatic activity since the attacks, the United States has worked to tamp down hostility between the neighbors, which have nuclear arms and have fought two major wars since 1947.

During a stop in Islamabad on Monday, the United States assistant secretary of state for South and Central Asian affairs, Richard A. Boucher, said that it was ?clear? the attackers had ?links that lead to Pakistani soil.?

But he also said that in the aftermath of the attacks, the authorities in Pakistan had ?done quite a bit,? and that a ?significant? number of members of Lashkar-e-Taiba had been arrested. ?Pakistan has a number of people in custody? suspected in the planning and execution of the attacks, he said.

Mr. Boucher declined, however, to answer a question about whether evidence suggested any involvement or support for the Mumbai plot, directly or indirectly, by the Pakistani government.

According to a Pakistani official, Pakistani authorities have obtained confessions from members of Lashkar-e-Taiba who said they had been involved in the attacks. One of them, according to the official, is Zarrar Shah, the militant group?s communications chief. American intelligence officials say they believe he has served as a conduit between Lashkar and the premier Pakistani spy agency, Inter-Services Intelligence.

Mr. Boucher urged Pakistan and India to work together to bring the Mumbai attackers to justice.

He acknowledged, however, that in terms of cooperation, ?There?s not much so far.?

The Pakistani government confirmed that India had handed over materials about the Mumbai attacks and said the evidence was being examined by ?concerned authorities,? according to the country?s state news agency.

Richard A. Oppel Jr. contributed reporting from Islamabad, Pakistan. Alan Cowell contributed from Paris.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: dawheat

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: dawheat

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: crisscross
Instead of going into Iraq, if GWB really cared about making the world a safer place he should have gone into Pakistan and dismantled their Nuclear weapons. The reason why Pakistan is doing it does is because it has nukes and every time India threatens to take action. Pakistan runs to mummy and cries of a Nuclear conflict.

So you mean to say that India's threats are justified. You are sick, twisted and brainwashed. And lets see you try and take our nuclear weapons. Tel Aviv and your bases in the region will be wastelands come what may.

Small words from a small country.

Obviously removing dispersed nuclear weapons from a country would be a nontrivial task, but flexing your nukes at India is a different story than flexing them at Israel or other major US installations (I suppose if you nuke Afganstan, you'd be doing us a favor).

In a purely hypothetical sense, once you remove the fixed Pakisanti long range missiles from play, they're reduce to aircraft delivered bombs. Whether several dozen F-16s can break through a fully mobilized USAF or IDF with airbourne radar support is highly debatable.

Bark all you want at India, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you're a major military or nuclear power.

Drop a bomb on Diego Garcia and all of Pakistan would be glassed - sound like a road you want to go down?

wtf? Do you even know how difficult it is to shoot an ballistic missile out of the air with another missile? It can't be done. The best US systems fail 50% in controlled settings (eg clear daytime, known trajectory, known intercept coordinates). Pakistan has hundreds of missiles that reach deep into Indian territory, all of them nuclear capable.

Firstly, Pakistan is as much a major military power as India, in the sense that they are both untouchable. Nuclear nations do not risk war because of the risk of nuclear bombardment. If India launched an attack on Pakistan and the war escalated, which is probably will considering the tensions on the sub-continent, we are looking at close to 500 million people dead on both sides and a limited nuclear winter globally.

Secondly, The US has as much say in Pakistan's nuclear deterrent as the US does in Russia's nuclear deterrent, and that is almost none. The Pakistan military holds the keys to the nukes, not the US president.

Finally, India has nothing to gain and everything to lose, just as Pakistan has nothing to gain and everything to lose. The destruction of a few, probably already abandoned, terrorist camps? Really? Attacking the Pakistani chain of command is the quickest way to have 15 major Indian cities glowing by the day's end.

To clarify I was only addressing the OP's threat to attack Israel and US installations, not India. India clearly has as much to lose in a nuclear conflict as Pakistan does - for ever Indian city glowing, you'd have the same in Pakistan.

Most of Pakistan's ballistic missiles do not have the range to reach Israel - the Shaheen-III, which may, is currently in development. In a strike-first philosophy, the US would hit them on the ground before they could be launched. Couple B-2 with deep penetrating bombs would make quick work of them.

Like I said, bark at India all you want, but piss off otherwise.

Iran would be more than happy if we shared our tech with them in a war with Israel. Israel should be wiped off the map. The jews can go back to Germany but the terror network of the IDF has to be destroyed. This world has no place for barbarians.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
The jews can go back to Germany but the terror network of the IDF has to be destroyed. This world has no place for barbarians.

That's funny coming from a person who lives among Barbarians.

 

[yllus]

As always, Pakistan continues to deflect any responsibility for even that which is obviously its own fault and busies itself with propping up its various boogeymen before its uneducated and ill-informed populace. India! Israel! Rally against the outsiders! Pay no attention to the daily bombings taking place in your city perpetrated by your countrymen!

 

[Arkaign]

I think the human race needs to think more about killing, about conflict.

 

[crisscross]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: dawheat

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: dawheat

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: crisscross
Instead of going into Iraq, if GWB really cared about making the world a safer place he should have gone into Pakistan and dismantled their Nuclear weapons. The reason why Pakistan is doing it does is because it has nukes and every time India threatens to take action. Pakistan runs to mummy and cries of a Nuclear conflict.

So you mean to say that India's threats are justified. You are sick, twisted and brainwashed. And lets see you try and take our nuclear weapons. Tel Aviv and your bases in the region will be wastelands come what may.

Small words from a small country.

Obviously removing dispersed nuclear weapons from a country would be a nontrivial task, but flexing your nukes at India is a different story than flexing them at Israel or other major US installations (I suppose if you nuke Afganstan, you'd be doing us a favor).

In a purely hypothetical sense, once you remove the fixed Pakisanti long range missiles from play, they're reduce to aircraft delivered bombs. Whether several dozen F-16s can break through a fully mobilized USAF or IDF with airbourne radar support is highly debatable.

Bark all you want at India, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you're a major military or nuclear power.

Drop a bomb on Diego Garcia and all of Pakistan would be glassed - sound like a road you want to go down?

wtf? Do you even know how difficult it is to shoot an ballistic missile out of the air with another missile? It can't be done. The best US systems fail 50% in controlled settings (eg clear daytime, known trajectory, known intercept coordinates). Pakistan has hundreds of missiles that reach deep into Indian territory, all of them nuclear capable.

Firstly, Pakistan is as much a major military power as India, in the sense that they are both untouchable. Nuclear nations do not risk war because of the risk of nuclear bombardment. If India launched an attack on Pakistan and the war escalated, which is probably will considering the tensions on the sub-continent, we are looking at close to 500 million people dead on both sides and a limited nuclear winter globally.

Secondly, The US has as much say in Pakistan's nuclear deterrent as the US does in Russia's nuclear deterrent, and that is almost none. The Pakistan military holds the keys to the nukes, not the US president.

Finally, India has nothing to gain and everything to lose, just as Pakistan has nothing to gain and everything to lose. The destruction of a few, probably already abandoned, terrorist camps? Really? Attacking the Pakistani chain of command is the quickest way to have 15 major Indian cities glowing by the day's end.

To clarify I was only addressing the OP's threat to attack Israel and US installations, not India. India clearly has as much to lose in a nuclear conflict as Pakistan does - for ever Indian city glowing, you'd have the same in Pakistan.

Most of Pakistan's ballistic missiles do not have the range to reach Israel - the Shaheen-III, which may, is currently in development. In a strike-first philosophy, the US would hit them on the ground before they could be launched. Couple B-2 with deep penetrating bombs would make quick work of them.

Like I said, bark at India all you want, but piss off otherwise.

Iran would be more than happy if we shared our tech with them in a war with Israel. Israel should be wiped off the map. The jews can go back to Germany but the terror network of the IDF has to be destroyed. This world has no place for barbarians.

Wow. Is there anyone you don't hate?

 

[sciwizam]

Pakistan acknowledges surviving Mumbai gunman is a Pakistani

Reporting from Islamabad ? Breaking weeks of silence on a highly sensitive subject, Pakistani authorities acknowledged for the first time today that the lone surviving gunman in the Mumbai attacks is a Pakistani national.

Authorities here have been extremely reluctant to formally acknowledge Pakistani links to the shooting rampage in India's commercial and entertainment hub, even though Indian officials had almost immediately identified the captured gunman, Ajmal Amir Kasab, as a Pakistani.

Pakistan has been under heavy U.S. pressure to move against militants based on its soil who are suspected of having planned and aided the Mumbai attacks, which took place six weeks ago and left more than 160 people dead.

However, India's swift finger-pointing in the wake of the onslaught angered and offended many Pakistanis. Many people here do not accept the Indian contention, backed up by U.S. intelligence, that the banned Pakistan-based group Lashkar-e-Taiba carried out the shootings.

Mindful of pervasive nationalistic sentiment at home, Pakistan's weak civilian government has tried to strike a balance between meeting international expectations that it will carry out a thorough investigation of its own while avoiding the appearance it is knuckling under to the demands of its archrival, India.

So strong is the taboo surrounding any acknowledgment of Pakistani ties to the case that Kasab's nationality was at first confirmed here only by Pakistani officials speaking on condition of anonymity. Hours later, Information Minister Sherry Rehman said in a terse text message: "We are confirming Kasab is Pakistani, but investigations are ongoing."

Pakistani media generally shied away from attempting to confirm the gunman's identity, but a month ago, a British newspaper, the Observer, reported that it had ascertained his origins using national identity cards and voter registration rolls in Faridkot, the village in Punjab province that Indian authorities identified as Kasab's hometown.

The other nine known gunmen were killed in the attacks.

India this week presented Pakistan with a 100-page dossier of evidence, including what it said were transcripts of intercepted calls between the gunmen and their handlers in Pakistan during the assault on targets including luxury hotels, a train station and a Jewish center.

The transcripts painted a chilling portrait of the methodical nature of the attacks. Excerpts translated and printed today by the Indian newspaper The Hindu indicated the gunmen repeatedly called their handlers for instructions as they rounded up hostages.

"We have three foreigners, including women," a gunman reportedly said in one such call. "Kill them," came the reply.

At another point during the three-day siege, handlers urged the gunmen to continue with the killings despite their fatigue. The transcripts also recorded the gunmen confessing to a key blunder -- having left behind a satellite phone on a hijacked vessel used to sail to Mumbai from the Pakistani port of Karachi.

Although India and Pakistan have both engaged in a degree of saber-rattling in the weeks since the attack, Pakistan made new efforts to cool some of the harsh rhetoric of recent days.

"Pakistan does not want war," Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said today during a visit to Kabul, Afghanistan. "Pakistan wants peace. Pakistan wants regional stability."

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: sciwizam
Pakistan acknowledges surviving Mumbai gunman is a Pakistani

The Green bean is owned!

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
I think it's kind of pointless it has all come down to this. Firstly it's totally ridiculous that 15 terrorists could cause so much damage with AK47s and keep the Indian commandos at bay for 3 long days! Second, the terrorist India has captured - investigative journalism revealed that no man of that name existed in the village the Indians claimed he was from! And now India is violating our airspace.

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Show me proof that a Pakistani was invloved. And even if the terrorist was of Pakistani origin there is no proof that this was planned in Pakistan.

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
There is absolutely no proof of Pakistan's involvement.There is no proof that the attack was planned IN Pakistan.

 

[kalster]

Originally posted by: GroundedSailor

Originally posted by: sciwizam
Pakistan acknowledges surviving Mumbai gunman is a Pakistani

The Green bean is owned!

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
I think it's kind of pointless it has all come down to this. Firstly it's totally ridiculous that 15 terrorists could cause so much damage with AK47s and keep the Indian commandos at bay for 3 long days! Second, the terrorist India has captured - investigative journalism revealed that no man of that name existed in the village the Indians claimed he was from! And now India is violating our airspace.

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Show me proof that a Pakistani was invloved. And even if the terrorist was of Pakistani origin there is no proof that this was planned in Pakistan.

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
There is absolutely no proof of Pakistan's involvement.There is no proof that the attack was planned IN Pakistan.

Came here to post just that. Hopefully the LET and other similar organizations are eliminated from Pakistan, but I doubt the President/PM has enough power/willingness to do that.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot

Originally posted by: kalster
India needs to learn a few things from Israel when it comes to dealing with problematic neighbors. Pakistan's inability to keep ISI activities in check is the whole problem. Of course India has more to lose, when you think about Pakistan you think about Al Qaeda, Dictatorship when you think about India you think about 8-9% growth, growing economy

The difference between the Palestinians and Pakistanis is that the Palestinians fight back with rocks and homemade rockets, the Pakistanis will fight back with tanks, cruise missiles, fighter jets and nuclear weapons.

There is no parallel. If India does the same things as Israel, the entire sub-continent will be glowing.

Kalster is another delusional Indian that thinks India is some superpower now because it got a few outsourced Dell jobs. The Indians on these forums are living in a fantasy.

Still bitter about losing your job to Indians?

 

[kalster]

Pakistan sacks NSA for 'irresponsible behaviour'



Pakistan's National Security Advisor Maj Gen(retd) Mahmud Ali Durrani has been sacked for having indicated days ago that Ajmal Amir Qasab, the lone Pakistani terrorist arrested for the Mumbai terror attacks, may have been a Pakistani.

This fact, ironically, was confirmed by the Pakistan government earlier in the day.

A brief statement issued by the Prime Minister's House said Yousuf Raza Gilani had sacked Durrani "for his irresponsible behaviour (of) not taking Prime Minister and other stakeholders into confidence and lack of coordination on matters of national security".

Gilani was quoted by Geo News channel as saying that he had sacked Durrani for commenting on the issue of the nationality of Iman alias Ajmal Qasab without taking him (Gilani) or the government into confidence.

The premier told the channel that Durrani's "irresponsible" comments had affected Pakistan's image and went against the government's policies.

The move came soon after Information Minister Sherry Rehman and Foreign Office spokesman Mohammad Sadiq both told reporters that an investigation by Pakistani security agencies had confirmed that Iman was a Pakistani national.

Rehman also said Pakistan's investigation into the Mumbai attacks was continuing.

Some reports suggested that Durrani's sacking would have to be endorsed by President Asif Ali Zardari.

Speaking to NDTV after being sacked, Durrani said, "I have not done anything wrong. I was supposed to tell the media that Qasab is Pakistani and I did just that."

Wishing the government good luck in tackling security issues, Durrani said that he did not consult the PM before giving statement on Qasab.