I no longer consider myself a christian

[MongGrel]

Ah, there is the mighty moral high horse we come to expect of typical Christians. Nevermind though, that before Christianity even existed, civilizations have always developed moral teachings. Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Confucius, Buddha, and many others have taught moral philosophy long before the invention of Christ. Christians act like they invented the Golden Rule.

Sorry, folks. It is all plagiarized. There is nothing new under the sun. You would have to be willfully ignorant of world history to think it all comes from one source.

+1

 

[OverVolt]

Uh huh, rocking the world religions 101.

 

[John Connor]

Ah, there is the mighty moral high horse we come to expect of typical Christians. Nevermind though, that before Christianity even existed, civilizations have always developed moral teachings. Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Confucius, Buddha, and many others have taught moral philosophy long before the invention of Christ. Christians act like they invented the Golden Rule.

Sorry, folks. It is all plagiarized. There is nothing new under the sun. You would have to be willfully ignorant of world history to think it all comes from one source.

Well, that may be true, but I'm not going to be so ignorant as to say, meh there's isn't a creator. There's more to this universe then we know. So far we have the Bible as a source and it's followed by millions in various degrees. Some more extreme than others.

I'm a baptized Lutheran, but I really don't subscribe to any one religon personally. My religion is going to the lake on my mountain bike just before the sun rises and standing on the beach and watching the sun rise, and realizing every thing has a reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

It was probably 4th grade. Catholic school. The subject was science, specifically Darwin. The nun teaching class screwed up her faced and exclaimed "Man can't possibly be descended from apes." In my innocence, man evolving from something previous seemed perfectly reasonable to me so I asked "Why not?" Her reply was "Because apes have no soul."

That was the point when I realized that religion was spurious bullshit. Nothing I've encountered since has changed my mind on the subject.

 

[OverVolt]

It was probably 4th grade. Catholic school. The subject was science, specifically Darwin. The nun teaching class screwed up her faced and exclaimed "Man can't possibly be descended from apes." In my innocence, man evolving from something previous seemed perfectly reasonable to me so I asked "Why not?" Her reply was "Because apes have no soul."

That was the point when I realized that religion was spurious bullshit. Nothing I've encountered since has changed my mind on the subject.

Be me. Catholic school. Learned evolution.

 

[ctark]

Ah, there is the mighty moral high horse we come to expect of typical Christians. Nevermind though, that before Christianity even existed, civilizations have always developed moral teachings. Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Confucius, Buddha, and many others have taught moral philosophy long before the invention of Christ. Christians act like they invented the Golden Rule.

Sorry, folks. It is all plagiarized. There is nothing new under the sun. You would have to be willfully ignorant of world history to think it all comes from one source.

There is one minor flaw in this post

You forgot that....

 

[MongGrel]

Nah, that was just bait.

Was on another post doesn't matter.

 

[norseamd]

ctark watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETlQqHAaY_k

 

[Ricochet]

Well, that may be true, but I'm not going to be so ignorant as to say, meh there's isn't a creator. There's more to this universe then we know. So far we have the Bible as a source and it's followed by millions in various degrees. Some more extreme than others.

I'm a baptized Lutheran, but I really don't subscribe to any one religon personally. My religion is going to the lake on my mountain bike just before the sun rises and standing on the beach and watching the sun rise, and realizing every thing has a reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4

I'll agree with you there (reference bolded), but I would rather not accept explanations of the superstitious. Until definitive answer is obtained I'd rather not presumed. Just because millions of people (billions even) follow ancient texts one way or another, doesn't mean they are closer to the truth. Religion has an extremely poor track record of explaining our natural world.

If you're raised Christian chances are you're going to think in the Christian world view. Muslim, Islamic world view. Buddhists, the Buddhist world view. And so on. Each will defend their beliefs vehemently. No one can be proven wrong. It is harder to unlearn something than to learn something. Once a concept is ingrained as a child it becomes a part of the person. It is passed down by customs, ritual, and re-enforced by loved ones. Whether that concept has any bearing of truth, is a different matter altogether, but hardly ever come to question again. Defending ones faith is often times defending ones identity. That's why a lot of religious argument doesn't resolve anything.

My view of the modern world religions is that none of them bare anymore truth than the old religions, the ones we call myths. They all borrow from those so called myths. For an example, folks in the Bible practice burnt offerings that is very prominent in Hellenic ritual. Today, we would consider that barbaric and extremely wasteful. Babylonian flood myth and creation of man from clay also permeates the Bible.

BTW, you're using Kirk Cameron's argument when putting yourself in awe at everything around you and surmising there must be a creator. Let's hope you do not ask us to find a crocoduck.

 

[Ricochet]

There is one minor flaw in this post

You forgot that....

I did, of course. However, for the master of tautology I turn to William Lane Craig. Listening to him makes my head spin.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Moonbeam strikes again!! -- I don't know why people who believe in God via faith don't see that a God found through faith can only be found through faith. Trying to persuade atheists, people who do not believe things for which there is no logical evidence, the very need that faith transcends, seems to me to be a useless waste of time.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

You would have to be willfully ignorant of world history to think it all comes from one source.

Have you read the Tao Te Ching? Nicomachean Ethics? Romans? Crito? Bhagavad Gita? Jataka*? Sufist writing*?

These are not rhetorical; say "no" to any or all of them. I want to meet you where you are.

I've not read much in the way of the two with *'s, but i'll dig in to meet you if you're there.

 

[MongGrel]

There were some predated that...

 

[tcsenter]

I'm pretty sure he's mentioned by Roman (and Jewish) historian Josephus and I think there are some mentions in the Talmud. But from a purely historical point of view, the record is pretty thin. Personally I don't think it's any more likely that Jesus is a fiction any more than Buddha or Mohammed but there is probably more objective historical support for the latter 2.

The overwhelming consensus on Josephus' Jesus passages encompass one or some mix of the following:

A. Josephus is a Christian telling the Christian view or narrative of things.

B. Are partially interpolated or edited by later Christian scribes.

C. Are complete forgeries by later Christians.

Only a teensy minority of scholars, almost all of whom happen to be believing (and probably Creationist type) Christians, take the view that Josephus' account of Jesus is non-suspect, trustworthy, and historical.

Stick to talking about something you actually know about or are willing to give true logical open thought and discussion on the subject.

although scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the accounts of his life, and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

AFAIK, non-Christian non-Gospel evidence for the very existence of Pontius Pilate is non-existent, except for some stone or tile that was discovered only in 1961, which could itself be a later forgery. There is nothing of Pilate in surviving Roman records.

 

[zinfamous]

This thread reminds me of:
http://www.gotquestions.org/narrow-path.html

Half of you are just weaklings stuck behind a keyboard eating fast food and becoming obese. Which is why I'll not only always be physically stronger than 99% of you, but also walk the narrow spiritual path unlike most of you as well. For if you don't even have faith in yourself to better yourself, you sure as hell aren't going to have faith in a higher power to bless you and look after you. Just the way society has become, everyone scared of their neighbor and scared to love each other like Jesus said. I don't fault any of you for not believing anymore, it's what the sheeple have programmed you to believe. The narrow path is designed that way for a reason. Carry on.

lmao! The sheeple are the non-believers? That is cute. Whatever you need to convince yourself, bro.

 

[WelshBloke]

lmao! The sheeple are the non-believers? That is cute. Whatever you need to convince yourself, bro.

I thought pretty much the same about his "atheists are all fatties" rant as well. Wonder what results we'd get if we correlated which are the most religious Western countries and which are the fastest. Also for US states.

 

[WelshBloke]

Faith is interesting, though, and I think that is what people like NGT understand: belief/faith is so uniquely strange and profound in the animal kingdom, that it is worth investigating, and certainly appreciating.

An unshakable belief in something regardless of a dearth of evidence for something and ignoring all and any evidence to the contrary doesn't seem that worth appreciating tbh.

 

[WelshBloke]

To my mind: moving beyond tribalism into respecting persons is an amazing.

Religion is perpetuating tribalism. "Follow our beliefs or your lesser and an outsider"

My argument: we need that spiritual foundation to get to where we can be scientific.

Maybe I'm missing something (I'm reading this on my phone, it's not the easiest way to follow) but your point seems to be that religion is OK if we disregard all the religious or nonsensical bits. Which I'd broadly agree with. But as someone else said that's just common sense and not acting like an arsehole.

 

[tcsenter]

An unshakable belief in something regardless of a dearth of evidence for something and ignoring all and any evidence to the contrary doesn't seem that worth appreciating tbh.

Unless it is culture-bound normative. Check the psychiatry diagnostic handbook on delusions and delusional belief: If it is normative of the person's cultural teachings, then it should not be considered a delusional belief.

Translation: if your culture teaches you to believe in the absolutely absurd, then it must be respected as a reasonable belief and not a delusion.

 

[zinfamous]

An unshakable belief in something regardless of a dearth of evidence for something and ignoring all and any evidence to the contrary doesn't seem that worth appreciating tbh.

That's a bit too cynical imo, and really ignores the point of faith. There are some faithful that cling to this faith as utter truth, and nothing else matters--yes, such people are deserving of ridicule, I think.

Others, faith isn't a crutch and it really doesn't have to be truth. It gives comfort and strength, but it doesn't have to be everything. I think nearly all people have the thought/desire to understand and accept a power greater than themselves--whether it be nature, the frustrating laws of physics (damn you gravity!), God, whatever.

well, then there is Sp33demon, who is both the strongest, sexiest, smartest human on earth and possibly the universe, but is also humbled before his God. A unique creature, this one.

 

[lxskllr]

Translation: if your culture teaches you to believe in the absolutely absurd, then it must be respected as a reasonable belief and not a delusion.

Nonsense never needs respect, only acknowledgment. "God" gave us free will, and the ability to think. I don't respect people that choose not to think for themselves.

 

[WelshBloke]

Unless it is culture-bound normative. Check the psychiatry diagnostic handbook on delusions and delusional belief: If it is normative of the person's cultural teachings, then it should not be considered a delusional belief.

Translation: if your culture teaches you to believe in the absolutely absurd, then it must be respected as a reasonable belief and not a delusion.

I think that your taking 'respected' and 'reasonable' out of context there. I suspect that they actually mean 'not necessarily bat shit insane'

That's a bit too cynical imo, and really ignores the point of faith. There are some faithful that cling to this faith as utter truth, and nothing else matters--yes, such people are deserving of ridicule, I think.

That's what 'faith' is though. If you don't believe it's true then you don't have faith and if you insist in evidence then you don't have faith.

Treating religion like a comfortable childhood fiction that may or may not be true but makes you feel better relegates religion to fictional literature.

 

[Grooveriding]

Religion is easily explained by mostly one thing, there are lots of other things you can offer as well, but it's primarily due to the human animal having a large primate brain unlike any other animal.

Because we have such high order intelligence and self-awareness we are aware of our mortality and the mortality of everything else living, human or otherwise. We are the only animal that understands through the majority of our lives that you live and then you inevitably die, perhaps there are a handful of other species that may have this awareness, but not to the degree we do. Also through our lives we witness the loss of other humans, close to us or otherwise, and again because of this large brain capable of emotion, we experience that loss profoundly.

This large brain also allows us to possess empathy for other living animals, experience the loss of those close to us with deep sadness and possess a fear of death no other animal does because of our awareness of its inevitability - rather than most animals with a simple instinct to avoid danger and predators. This same empathetic center is the explanation for why most of us are uncomfortable with murder, theft, rape, hurting others or what have you. It has nothing to do with religion, the created moral tenets of the various religions are just a reflection that humans have always possessed this empathetic center in the brain.

Religion is an attempt to come to terms with our mortality without confronting the uncomfortable, for us, truth that eventually we and those we love all die and are gone forever. That big primate brain also gives us our imagination which lets us create all sorts of high order fantasies and mysticism related to nature. Other examples are things like an irrational fear of the dark even when you're in your own home or hearing creaks in a house and coming up with stories about ghosts. All a product of the imagination running away with things. This same imagination is what can let you look around and 'see' the proof of religion in the world around you. Nature is amazing, it's going to be difficult when you don't know everything about it, and have this great imagination, not to try and explain it with mystical origins.

If you look at the time when the prevalent religions were created, people then had no understanding of the nature of the universe and how things worked. It was easy for ideas of some sort of magical underpinning to everything to come about. Naturally these would be related to where we came from and how everything started. Today in these more advanced times we still are trying to answer these same questions, but now we have the benefit of greatly advanced technology and science to get to the real truth of it, rather than make up mystical stories and events to explain it we have actually started to slowly figure out the truth of it.

I expect if human civilization manages to continue to thrive for a good deal longer that religion will continue to slowly decline and eventually become a fringe. It's unfortunate that in this day and age you can't even be a viable candidate in politics without affirming you believe something that has no evidence to support its existence. A testament to how difficult it is for humans to accept that we are just another animal that through the fruits of evolution became exceptionally intelligent, and just like the other animals we all die and that is the end of things for us like it is for the other species.

I don't disbelieve that there is the possibility of a sentient creator of all the universe, benevolent or otherwise, there is just no evidence one way or the other. So right now it has no more credence to it than any far fetched tale anyone could dream up and write down on paper with no evidence to support it. As far as the current major religions of the world, none of those books are explanations for how the universe came into existence.

 

[IronWing]

Moonbeam strikes again!! -- I don't know why people who believe in God via faith don't see that a God found through faith can only be found through faith. Trying to persuade atheists, people who do not believe things for which there is no logical evidence, the very need that faith transcends, seems to me to be a useless waste of time.

^^ This. Sadly for all involved, many religions include an imperative to proselytize.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Religion is perpetuating tribalism. "Follow our beliefs or your lesser and an outsider"






Maybe I'm missing something (I'm reading this on my phone, it's not the easiest way to follow) but your point seems to be that religion is OK if we disregard all the religious or nonsensical bits. Which I'd broadly agree with. But as someone else said that's just common sense and not acting like an arsehole.

Yes, it is common sense. I agree, religions are notoriously tribalistic.

My argument is about why common sense is as it is.

And why we define 'asshole' as we do in our society.

Just look at how big our tribe is: from across the world we agree Sp33demon's an ass.