I no longer consider myself a christian

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child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
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If your argument is "you have to be dumb/ignorant to believe in Jesus" then consider this:

I'm not the smartest or most well educated person, but i'm not dumb or ignorant of the bible. It's just that after every period of reflection I come back to this conclusion:

Loving God helps me love my fellow man; Believing in Jesus helps me love God.

I make no other claims: For me, that my mind works this way is enough.

GH: Can we agree that we should intelligently consider the 'opportunity costs' associated with whatever we believe; and choose that which helps us be the best possible person?

What does it mean if you love your fellow man without needing to believe in God or Jesus? If a person showed you conclusively that God and Jesus did not exist, would you love your fellow man less? If the answer is "no," did you actually need God or Jesus to love your fellow man in the first place?
 
Nov 29, 2006
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What does it mean if you love your fellow man without needing to believe in God or Jesus? If a person showed you conclusively that God and Jesus did not exist, would you love your fellow man less? If the answer is "no," did you actually need God or Jesus to love your fellow man in the first place?

Yeah these kind of people scare me. Its like without this God crutch they'd be mass murderers or something.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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Religious beliefs seem to have the opposite effect of "love your neighbor" and "happy, happy Joy thoughts" a lot of the time.

It usually results in "you do not think like I do, therefore you need to be eradicated"
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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Yeah these kind of people scare me. Its like without this God crutch they'd be mass murderers or something.

I wasn't making that argument, but I understand why you would think so.

I'd still be as ethical if tomorrow I were an atheist.

But for me, belief helps in becoming more loving.

Here's a quote from GH in another thread:

What if said genius is working part time at Chiptole to support his life as a surf bum (or ski bum) because his sole desire in life is to catch the perfect wave or find the perfect slope? Isn't living life your own way to have as much fun as possible winning? Maybe it's not who dies with the most toys, it's who gets to spend the most time playing with them.

For me, as an ideal, it's making the most positive impact on others lives that is 'winning'.

I get this sense of 'winning' from my faith.


Religious beliefs seem to have the opposite effect of "love your neighbor" and "happy, happy Joy thoughts" a lot of the time.

It usually results in "you do not think like I do, therefore you need to be eradicated"

I agree; it's very sad that such potential is exploited the way it is.
 
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Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
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Actually proof that your mind doesn't work, you merely have the ability to repeat the nonsense you have been taught.
I don't think you can say that about everyone with some sort of religious belief. I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with fundamentalists (see what I did there), but the idea of a deity or some sort of supernatural realm doesn't have to be inimical to rational thought. In fact, to the extent that it allays existential fears about our ultimate demise, purpose for existing, etc., I think it can be very useful and on the whole makes society better.

For most people, religion isn't something that exists in the forefront of their consciousness. It's sort of a background routine that helps with the housekeeping. It's something that fills in the necessary gaps. It only becomes an issue when people start acting as if it's real.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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MtnMan: Who taught you?

Charmonium: well said.
It only becomes an issue when people start acting as if it's real.
What do you mean by real?

Like brick to the head; or like a traffic law?
 
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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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I wasn't making that argument, but I understand why you would think so.

I'd still be as ethical if tomorrow I were an atheist.

But for me, belief helps in becoming more loving.

See, what you've got there is faith in yourself to be a good person.

It's a nice coincidence as I've got faith that you're a nice person as well. :)
 

Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
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What do you mean by real?

Like brick to the head; or like a traffic law?
It's sort of a contradiction. That's why I characterized it as a background process. Religion is a little like quantum mechanics. It works only if you don't look at it too closely. As soon as you do, things become very bizarre - or at least they can.

So ideally, you want to have both faith and doubt in equal measure. As long as that balance exists, you're not likely to take any scriptural commands too much to heart and therefore never use your faith to justify the unjustifiable.

But as soon as faith completely overwhelms doubt to the point that it's not even a consideration any more, THAT is when you risk being manipulated into doing things that no sane person would do.
 
Nov 29, 2006
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It's sort of a contradiction. That's why I characterized it as a background process. Religion is a little like quantum mechanics. It works only if you don't look at it too closely. As soon as you do, things become very bizarre - or at least they can.

So ideally, you want to have both faith and doubt in equal measure. As long as that balance exists, you're not likely to take any scriptural commands too much to heart and therefore never use your faith to justify the unjustifiable.

But as soon as faith completely overwhelms doubt to the point that it's not even a consideration any more, THAT is when you risk being manipulated into doing things that no sane person would do.

But what does that say of a theist who believes the bible is the word of god (through man)? I mean they really should be stoning people and owning slaves etc. They just pick and choose what fits into modern society. But is that what their god would want? Maybe he is mad Christians are not stoning fornicators etc :p
 

midwestfisherman

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2003
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So here I am almost exactly 5 years later and I stumble upon this thread I started. A few observations and thoughts.

1. I'm ashamed I called someone a lovely human.

2. I'm still an atheist/agnostic. Some would argue they are different, but really they are essentially the same. Most of my friends are atheist. All of my family knows my stance, it has been the cause of some divide, mostly do to my choosing. I no longer have a relationship with my grandparents. Religion isn't the only reason, but it played a big part in my decision that I was just done with that part of my life. They are really conservative southern baptist Christians. I decided I didn't want my future kids getting their heads filled with their bat shit insane idea's about the world. (I'm engaged now)

3. I went from a staunch right wing republican to a someone who is a Bernie Sanders supporter. I wouldn't call myself a liberal. I don't necessarily like political labels. I like to separate each issue as its own issue and make a reasoned decision not based on what group i identify with believes in. Once you put all the religion BS aside and out of your mind it really opens up your view of the world and you think about things a different way. I liken my personal experience with religion as a sickness. It crept into every crevice of the way I acted and thought. When I was a "christian", I never acted the part. I had the belief part, but I didn't follow the "rules". But even so, it drastically changed the way I thought and acted in certain situations.

4. I'm no longer afraid to be wrong. I like to debate and I like to listen to others and exchange thoughts. I like listening to the greatest minds of our times (Richard Dawkins, NGD, L. Krauss) just to name a few. I generally feel like I care more about my fellow man and the world as a whole now that I don't have this fear of some invisible sky man that watches everything I do.

5. I never considered myself racist in the traditional sense. But being brought up the way I was, it would be next to impossible for some of my families discriminatory habits and remarks not to rub off on me. I have never been the type of person that would openly discriminate against someone in public, or do an action against that person because the color of their skin. To give an example, I would say I would not have had an open mind to the discrimination that some minorities face today in this country of ours. The reason I didn't have an open mind is because of how I was raised, and that racism kind of crept into that part of my life when dealing with the social issues of another race. To be more clear, I was essentially in denial that real issues existed and that it wasn't just as easy as "blacks commit more crimes". I suppose I'll always fight against that instinct, but now I'm aware of it. I think deep down we are all a little discriminatory against others not like ourselves. I think half the battle is knowing that about yourself.

6. I'm still not a troll.

7. The reason I decided to bump this thread is that maybe someone else is just coming into where I was 5 years ago. Plus its just kind of cool to see what a difference 5 years makes. I now see that Christianity does not have the monopoly on morality. I can now hold my own against any bible toting southerner ready to argue with me about religion or politics. Overall I feel like a more intelligent person, while still knowing that I'm ignorant about a lot of things. But things like logic and the scientific method have given me the tools necessary to solve many of life's little problems and queries.

So in conclusion, you're pretty 'effed up and you're going to burn in hell for eternity!!

Oh and....

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