I just watched the whole Serena Williams meltdown.

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Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
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I wanted equal treatment and that would have been not to enforce for her as well. You know in all sports champions get deference. I don't always like it but why should she be excluded.
Serena was in the wrong and her opponent was not, so Serena deserved the penalties. If she wants to be a positive role model for women and a force behind pushing for equal treatment, she should accept responsibility, apologize for her behavior, and then argue that men should also be penalized for similar behavior.

Two wrongs dont make a right. The solution for equal treatment is not to ignore wrongs by women, it is to start enforcing penalties for wrongs by men.

Also, is there a history of women being penalized for such behavior? If not, it's a big leap to the sexism card - suggesting Serena was penalized for being a woman, rather than for some other reason (her coach was particularly egregious, the umpire was in a bad mood or has a bad history with Serena, or maybe there was just a lot of coaching violations throughout the tournament and Serena's coach was the last straw after a long tournament).

If there are 3 people speeding and the cop pulls you over, throwing a tantrum that the cop should have pulled over the car in front of you is not a good excuse.
 
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PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
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I don't believe the narrative of this situation will ever be resolved to anyone's satisfaction.

Half believe she was mistreated grotesquely (including pretty much all of the sports media), half believe she was out of line.

No middle ground here, and it never will be achieved. Everybody just needs to believe what they want and move on.

For what it is worth, I think that both can be (and are) true in this case. I believe Serena was clearly out of line (probably in part because she was so frustrated by how poorly she was playing). I also think that the response of the umpire to her provocation was noticeably harsher than what we have seen when similar situations developed with the "bad boys" in the past (when was the last time some one was penalized a game in finals of a major tournament?).

I also agree with you that it is time to move on. ;)
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,634
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Serena was in the wrong and her opponent was not, so Serena deserved the penalties. If she wants to be a positive role model for women and a force behind pushing for equal treatment, she should accept responsibility, apologize for her behavior, and then argue that men should also be penalized for similar behavior.

Two wrongs dont make a right. The solution for equal treatment is not to ignore wrongs by women, it is to start enforcing penalties for wrongs by men.

Also, is there a history of women being penalized for such behavior? If not, it's a big leap to the sexism card - suggesting Serena was penalized for being a woman, rather than for some other reason (her coach was particularly egregious, the umpire was in a bad mood or has a bad history with Serena, or maybe there was just a lot of coaching violations throughout the tournament and Serena's coach was the last straw after a long tournament).

If there are 3 people speeding and the cop pulls you over, throwing a tantrum that the cop should have pulled over the car in front of you is not a good excuse.
You don't use the finals of the US Open to start strict enforcement of a rule where you have not enforced for others in the past. The tennis association should convene a meeting to clarify enforcement and go from there. Equal treatment is don't single out Serena for enforcement different from others.

BTW - At no time did I place any blame on her opponent. In fact I said Osaka was an innocent bystander and felt bad for her.
 

madoka

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2004
4,344
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and why is she a roid sister? because of her build or because of her emotional expression in regards to her being treated differently?

Here's why:

Serena has faced allegations of drug use throughout her career and for good reason.

  1. It was alleged that she managed to evade drug testers (for OC) entirely for two years in 2010 and 2011. She covered up failed ICs by citing phantom injuries. She also famously locked herself in a panic room and called 911 when an out-of-competition tester called on her in October 2011. She never provided a sample afterwards and the tennis authorities did not answer why.
  2. Serena was one of the players (including Venus Williams, Jennifer Capriati and Lindsey Davenport) who protested against the WTA’s new drug testing rules in 2000 which led to the cancellation of WTA’s off-season testing program too. She has protested vociferously against any attempts made by the WTA/ITF to make testing more rigorous and stringent. She once reportedly declared that “women don’t need to be tested because women don’t take steroids”. She also raised similar objections before the 2004 Olympics in Athens until the WTA gave in. However, the IOC did not and Williams ended up withdrawing from the games citing “terrorism fears” in Greece!
  3. A number of critics have pointed to Serena’s body and muscle size to allege use of steroids. However, it is not the best indicator in my opinion. Many black (and non-black) athletes are muscular and it is unfair to brand someone a doper on the basis of looks.
  4. A stronger and more incriminating pointer was the pulmonary embolism and hematoma that Williams suffered in March 2011. Since embolisms and DVT (Deep Vein Thrombosis) are often associated with sedentary lifestyles, it is surprising when healthy athletes develop the condition. However, it is not rare and there is enough evidence to suggest a link between anabolic steroid use and embolisms in athletes. In fact, anabolic steroid use is one of the biggest risk factors for the condition. Some body builders will also agree that hematomas often occur while injecting steroids.
  5. Another factor is Serena’s playing schedule. She takes an awful amount of time off during the year, playing only a few tournaments other than the Grand Slams. Many have questioned how it is possible for a player to win and dominate the game the way Serena does, while not playing it actively through the year. Is she super-human or does she need the time-off for her “juicing cycle”?
  6. Over the years, Serena has exhibited unpleasant and bizarre on-court behavior that may be attributed to “roid rage” - a“mysterious illness” that caused her to forfeit a Wimbledon doubles match due to poor co-ordination, death threats that she aimed at a line judge during a 2009 US Open semifinal, breaking racquets, a tirade against an umpire during the 2011 US Open final etc.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
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Australian newspaper (Herald Sun) cartoon about the incident:


DmtUvwfU0AAgMYg.jpg:large


Osaka won square and fair. Williams is just like the QB of the Panthers. Smiling and all when winning but whining and full of excuses when things didn't go their ways.
 
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Papagayo

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2003
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It was shameful..

If Naomi wasn't part black, I guarantee that Serena would have pulled a race card also..


Naomi out played Serena even without all this drama..
Congrats to Naomi.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
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Careful, for certain people that can get you elected President.

Not claiming the emotional tirade was correct, if you examine at the content off her complaints she had a valid point. Try that.

You probably don't watch much tennis. They are plenty of clips of players having meltdowns. Hell, John McEnroe was famous for it and he is one of the all time greats. I don't know why you are singling out Serena.

Because one is ancient history, and one is current.

And McEnroe was repeatedly penalized. He was even completely disqualified in a Grand Slam, game set and match, when he was leading, before that:
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/john-mcenroe-disqualified-from-the-australian-open

It's not the bad calls that are the issue. It's the tantrums that follow. Note the bad call, carry on, file some kind of protest afterwards.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
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I think a lot of keyboard warriors here are not realizing what kind of hard work and dedication it takes to get as high as she has - and to be in this _championship match_, only to be wronged once again - that is cause for emotion. Are there steroid allegations this year? Then why is that a factor here?

The gender behavior card - "Two wrongs don't make a right" is easy to argue in a vacuum, but enough is enough with the BS against her at the US Open. Especially again in this scenario. Absolutely she should stand up for herself. If you watched the entire 14 minute video unfold, the emotions she actually exhibited were more controlled than what any of us would've done in a private setting so get off your high horses. It sure is easy to bring down star/popular athletes, point and laugh - but they too are human.
 
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NetWareHead

THAT guy
Aug 10, 2002
5,847
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I think a lot of keyboard warriors here are not realizing what kind of hard work and dedication it takes to get as high as she has - and to be in this _championship match_, only to be wronged once again - that is cause for emotion. Are there steroid allegations this year? Then why is that a factor here?

The gender behavior card - "Two wrongs don't make a right" is easy to argue in a vacuum, but enough is enough with the BS against her at the US Open. Especially again in this scenario. Absolutely she should stand up for herself. If you watched the entire 14 minute video unfold, the emotions she actually exhibited were more controlled than what any of us would've done in a private setting so get off your high horses. It sure is easy to bring down star/popular athletes, point and laugh - but they too are human.

I understand your point but it doesnt excuse that behavior in a setting where professionalism is expected. There is no excuse for a tantrum, babies being the exception. Straight up embarrassing.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Questioning their judgement alone - I don't believe - is in the code of acceptable conduct, is it? Whether you call someone an asshole or say "You cheated and stole my points!" does it really matter? You're questioning their judgement regardless and insulting their authority - of which this ump had quite a history of 30+ years IIRC.

Again, what she REALLY did wrong here wasn't what she said - it was the fact that she would not fucking drop it. 15 minutes of cut footage is CRINGE worthy. You can cite other male players all you want, I challenge you to find an example where a male would keep harassing the ump for that amount of footage. I'll place a bet right now and say it doesn't exist.

At a certain point - especially after she kept harping on after the point loss - I honestly get the suspicion that she knew she was going to lose and was just grabbing for victim culture at that point. Why lose when you can just keep pushing the narrative that the game was rigged?

The ONE ounce of any shot at condemning the ump was when he made the odd-call for coaching. Yes, I agree - based on what everyone is saying that seemed out of the ordinary. But when you act like a baby for the rest of the match that won't help your cause. At the end of the day, the odd-call was a warning - and even if you didn't realize it until the loss of point you STILL could have won if you didn't suck.

Male players are typically given far more warnings for that kind of behavior and told "look if you keep this up I'm going to give you a penalty and that will be a game penalty". If she continued after that then OK. As far as the coaching thing, I have read from numerous places that it is absurdly common for that to occur and they are never warned or issued a penalty. Her coach even said that has done it in almost every match he coached and this was the very first time he got called on it. The US Open final is NOT the place to start putting your foot down on a widespread practice. Worse she wasn't even looking at the coach. I would "think" that the absolute last thing a ref would want to do is give a game penalty in the US Open final. Also, in the very same US Open a male player absolutely destroys his racket and he wasn't penalized:

2018_09_09_14_57_30.2018_09_09_15_07_28.gif


All of the male players coming to her defense and saying they have done much worse is telling as well. Some men just can't handle being talked to like that by a woman, yes it did go on excessively long but like I said he should have verbally warned her that if she continued she would lose a game. If it wasn't for that call this wouldn't be such an issue since it would have only been a single point in a single game and poor Naomi Osaka wouldn't have her win shrouded in this controversy, which is absolutely a tragedy.
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,754
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I personally think the worst thing Serena did was repetitively say, "You owe me..."

Even if a ref is wrong they will never owe you anything. That is up to the governing body.

Remember

I love Serena but please own your mistakes.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,352
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I wonder if how you view this depends on what sport you normally watch. I watch rugby mostly and if a player pulled that behaviour they'd be sent off the pitch and probably got a several game ban.

Looks like the problem is not them being hard on her but them letting far too many people get away with way too much for too long.

That said it livened up a dull sport I guess.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
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Just to highlight the absurdity of the coaching rule that started this entire train wreck, this is from ESPN.

Section L in "Article III -- Player On-Site Offense" in the Grand Slam Rulebook, begins: "Players shall not receive coaching during a match (including the warm-up). Communications of any kind, audible or visible, between a player and a coach may be construed as coaching."

So is it coaching to yell, "Come on," when your protege hits a winner? Is it not cool for a player to look at the box that seats his parents, coach, physio and agent and point to his leg, indicating cramps? When a coach plants his left elbow into his right palm, is it a pre-agreed signal?

As it turned out, there was no doubt Mouratoglou was coaching because he admitted as much on air to ESPN analyst Pam Shriver: "I was coaching, but I don't think [Serena] looked at me. [Osaka's] coach was coaching the whole time, too. Everyone is doing it, 100 percent of the time."

The coach was guilty as charged, but the absurdity of the coaching rule -- or the selective, sometimes capricious way it's enforced -- was suggested in Williams' post-match reaction. She claimed she was unaware of her coach's actions -- or of his admitting to it.

"I don't know. I literally just heard that, too," Williams said of Mouratoglou's confession when she met with the press after the match. "I just texted Patrick, like, what is he talking about? Because we don't have signals. We have never discussed signals. I'm trying to figure out why he would say that. I was on the far other end, so I'm not sure. I want to clarify myself what he's talking about."

The confusion -- "mess" might be a better word -- highlighted the weakness in the broadly-written rule. That it was Williams who suffered is ironic because she's never been a promising target for the coaching police. She doesn't even avail herself of the on-court coaching allowed by the WTA at its tour-level events.

Williams takes pride in her ability to navigate difficult moments without looking to see if her coach is tugging at an earlobe or strategically placing his elbow on a handrail, like an erstwhile third-base coach in Major League Baseball.

That's more than you can say for a lot of other players.

"One thing I love about tennis is being out there," she said. "It's the one time I don't want to hear anyone tell me anything. It's my moment of peace when I'm out on the court where I don't hear anyone, I don't need it, I just try to problem-solve on myself."

The code violation was certainly unfair to Williams. The rule itself is so amorphous that it can be bent to any purpose. It needs to be changed -- or scrapped altogether.

Perhaps the rules should call for the ejection of a coach who gets caught red-handed. That would surely more effective and disturbing punishment for a team actively cheating. A warning is just a slap on the wrist, and usually it's taken that way. In this case -- and Williams didn't seem to understand this -- it was a slap on her coach's wrist.

But then this was no ordinary occasion. Williams was under a lot of stress. This was a US Open final, the apex of her comeback to tennis as a mother, in her home Grand Slam. She was also trying to equal Margaret Court's all-time Grand Slam singles title record (24).

Given those circumstances it's easier to understand how Williams' equilibrium was upset. Coaching violation? You have got to be kidding! With the kind of stuff that goes on every day on the tour? Williams' moment of peace was shattered during what should have been a grand occasion, win or lose. Somebody ought to get a code violation for that.
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,673
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All of the male players coming to her defense and saying they have done much worse is telling as well.

People are expecting tennis players, male or female, to not back Serena? Seriously?

That would be like a golfer taking negatively about Tiger Woods. Only one professional golfer that I know of has ever been critical of TW: Brandel Chamblee.

The result: He's been belittled, threatened, his family has been threatened, a concerted effort was made to get him fired (Woods didn't discourage it), and pretty much every effort imaginable has been made to ruin his life.

Yeah - pro tennis players are really a great source of honest commentary when it comes to stuff like this.
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,754
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Another PS. The player doesn't necessarily need to have received coaching to receive the penalty. Some things are out of the players hand(s). (Philly Fans throwing batteries comes to mind)

The rule is good. Imagine a coach from the stands can see something that the player may not.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
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Why is there no coaching to begin with? Why is this sport special? Because they actually sit in the stands? Look at football coaches and their O/D coordinators radio'ing from the press boxes.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,842
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It was shameful..

If Naomi wasn't part black, I guarantee that Serena would have pulled a race card also..


Naomi out played Serena even without all this drama..
Congrats to Naomi.

Whatever card you try to pull out of your ass - at the end of the day it just makes you look like a baby.

You're against black people! Oh wait she is half black half asian...
You're against women! (The card she went with)... oh wait, the fucking opponent is a woman, so how is it oppressing women when it gives an advantage to another woman?

Retards gonna retard.