I just watched the whole Serena Williams meltdown.

[manly]

Anything from anywhere at anytime can be considered offensive depending on who heard what and how they interpreted it. Please get off your politically correct soapbox of acting as-if there is some magical universe with rainbows and unicorn farts where everything is never considered offensive to anyone.

The cartoon wasn't meant to be racist or sexist in anyway. Quit painting your brush over other people's thoughts as if you are the grand wizard interpreter of offensiveness.

Why don't we just agree to disagree? When did I ever imply there's a utopia in print cartoons and an editorial cartoon is either good or offensive? How many times do I need to say intent or lack thereof is not the point? You can think whatever you want to, I DGAF and doubt I'll convince you anyhow. So your spiel about me trying to be the PC arbiter of good taste is bullshit. Several of us have explained why the cartoon is seen as problematic; either you agree to some degree or you don't. Just because you disagree doesn't mean the rest of us are easily offended.

Although it's been pointed out that this cartoon is very much in the artist's style, Brainonska511 also found a recent example that is probably more suspect. It's awesome that although I've never once claimed to know the cartoonist's intent, you definitively state it as if you are the artist himself. Do as I say, not as I do.

 

[Svnla]

As usual, Svnla misses the forest for the trees. The fact that the blonde girl in the cartoon has the barest resemblance to Naomi Osaka is secondary. The way that Serena is caricatured can be seen as highly offensive to some in American society for aforementioned historical reasons. Dudes like him don't understand an innocent mistake is still a mistake, regardless of intent. It's always someone else being overly sensitive about a nothingburger. It's almost like you'd have to put a KKK hood on the chair umpire for Svnla to even wonder if there's a racist overtone present.

Not too many here are outright defending Serena (although some in the media certainly are). What she did was unprofessional/unsporting and by the letter of the law, Carlos Ramos penalized her accordingly. He has a history of being a stickler and annoying top players, so it's hard to definitively make a case for bias against Williams. What Darwin333 is saying is that if you know her tennis history at the US Open, and her life history, you would at least understand why she flipped out. How sick is it that a lot of this stuff happens at the biggest tournament in her home country? Some of us are sports fans and believe in fair play, and letting the athletes decide it on the field. No matter who you root for and in what sport, most of us don't want match outcomes decided because a referee decided to dot his i's and cross his t's. That does not mean we excuse Serena's reactions as she definitely Diva'd it up and then doubled down with sexism claims.

It's hilarious that some here are outraged at Serena's boorish behavior, when they probably watch women's tennis once a year. But when tennis pros or retired players state they've never had the book thrown at them (and for worse verbal abuse), it's circling the wagon and we shouldn't care about those informed opinions. I'll take James Blake and Andy Roddick's words over some nerds on ATOT.

Gotta love how you accuse me of missing the forest for the trees yet you totally IGNORE my several links that I posted above from the artist himself, people that work with him and know him for years, and the newspaper (with over 500,000 readers) itself about the cartoon meaning and intention. Do as you say and not as you do, right? LOL. Should we take your words or from the artist himself and people with work with him and know him well about the cartoon? Uh huh.

Oh look, the same artist has a white woman with HUGE lips and Zuck with Big ears and HUGE nose. White folks, where you at? Let pull the race card out, now!!!! Oh wait.

ROTFLMAO. Must.Stop.Laughing.Too.Hard.

 

[manly]

What exactly is your point? I conceded yesterday that I'll take at face value the artist's statement that there was no racist intention to the caricature. Like I just wrote in my previous reply, that's beside the point. I for one never stated that the cartoon is racist. Brainonska511 succinctly explained why he thinks it's racist:
https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...illiams-meltdown.2553770/page-4#post-39567942

Of course the newspaper that published the cartoon is going to back its artist and strongly deny any charges of racism. What else would you expect? It's laughable that your A+ link game is supposed to convince us that the cartoon should not and cannot be offensive in the context of American social mores. Yes, the Herald Sun and Aussies should tell us what we can and cannot be offended by when it comes to depictions of American athletes! So no, I didn't ignore your A+ link game and if you understood what I've wrote, you would know that.

I actually believe political correctness does run amok in many cases, but negative reaction to this cartoon isn't one of them.

 

[Svnla]

What exactly is your point? I conceded yesterday that I'll take at face value the artist's statement that there was no racist intention to the caricature. Like I just wrote in my previous reply, that's beside the point. I for one never stated that the cartoon is racist. Brainonska511 succinctly explained why he thinks it's racist:
https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...illiams-meltdown.2553770/page-4#post-39567942

Of course the newspaper that published the cartoon is going to back its artist and strongly deny any charges of racism. What else would you expect? It's laughable that your A+ link game is supposed to convince us that the cartoon should not and cannot be offensive in the context of American social mores. Yes, the Herald Sun and Aussies should tell us what we can and cannot be offended by when it comes to depictions of American athletes! So no, I didn't ignore your A+ link game and if you understood what I've wrote, you would know that.

I actually believe political correctness does run amok in many cases, but negative reaction to this cartoon isn't one of them.

If you did follow the thread, then you would understand my point. I don't have to convince you or anyone of anything. Facts are facts.

Last time I check, the rule of debate in this forum is making your assertion/statement(s) then backing them up with links, not by butthurting and/or empty bullshitting. But you would know that, right? I am paraphrasing your own words here, shall we listen to people that know the artist for years or some nerds on ATOT?

Shall white people pull the race card out..ooops...have "negative reaction" to this artist because he did exaggerate the features on white folks on multiple occasions? Uh huh. Pathetic and laughable indeed.

Edit: Latest news, the artist claimed that he was forced to delete his Twitter account because of harassment and his wife and children were threatened on Instagram. So much for tolerance, peace, love, and understanding. Uh huh.

 

[purbeast0]

The only people who find that cartoon racist are people who are racist themself or SJW's. Even people in here who are calling it racist haven't said why it's racist. I'm curious what people even think is racist about it.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The only people who find that cartoon racist are people who are racist themself or SJW's. Even people in here who are calling it racist haven't said why it's racist. I'm curious what people even think is racist about it.

It has a black person in it and they aren't portrayed in a positive light.

Naomi Osaka doesn't count, she is only half black.

 

[manly]

If you did follow the thread, then you would understand my point. I don't have to convince you or anyone of anything. Facts are facts.

Last time I check, the rule of debate in this forum is making your assertion/statement(s) then backing them up with links, not by butthurting and/or empty bullshitting. But you would know that, right? I am paraphrasing your own words here, shall we listen to people that know the artist for years or some nerds on ATOT?

Shall white people pull the race card out..ooops...have "negative reaction" to this artist because he did exaggerate the features on white folks on multiple occasions? Uh huh. Pathetic and laughable indeed.

Edit: Latest news, the artist claimed that he was forced to delete his Twitter account because of harassment and his wife and children were threatened on Instagram. So much for tolerance, peace, love, and understanding. Uh huh.

Yes your point is the artist has defended himself, his newspaper defended him, and other Australians have lambasted Serena's behavior. You have moar links, so by ATOT rules, you win the argument!

Guess what, what people assert about Mark Knight's character is somewhat in the realm of personal opinions. What other people opine about Serena's meltdown likewise (I'm on the record here as stating she's mostly in the wrong). Whereas when retired pros James Blake and Andy Roddick simply state they've never been harshly penalized for worse verbal abuse towards an umpire, those aren't really opinions. Those are facts unless they are lying or have poor memory, or someone produces a counter-example.

But since you know for a fact Mark Knight is a stand-up guy, maybe you should read a little more about Australian cartoonists:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...an-cartoon-serena-williams-sexist-racist.html

Yes, Slate is a liberal rag but it's pretty crazy some of the shit they've published in the past. But damn, I still have to give you props. I have one measly op-ed link vs. your whole litany of FACTS so you win!

For those who continue asking why the cartoon is problematic or seen as insensitive, Brainonska511 stated it immediately. You can disagree with his statement, but don't sit there and claim it's never been explained. Honestly, I quit arguing about opposing opinions of the cartoon. I'll concede to these fine arguments such as "more links FTW" or that anyone who finds the cartoon insensitive must be a SJW.

 

[Svnla]

Yes your point is the artist has defended himself, his newspaper defended him, and other Australians have lambasted Serena's behavior. You have moar links, so by ATOT rules, you win the argument!

Guess what, what people assert about Mark Knight's character is somewhat in the realm of personal opinions. What other people opine about Serena's meltdown likewise (I'm on the record here as stating she's mostly in the wrong). Whereas when retired pros James Blake and Andy Roddick simply state they've never been harshly penalized for worse verbal abuse towards an umpire, those aren't really opinions. Those are facts unless they are lying or have poor memory, or someone produces a counter-example.

But since you know for a fact Mark Knight is a stand-up guy, maybe you should read a little more about Australian cartoonists:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...an-cartoon-serena-williams-sexist-racist.html

Yes, Slate is a liberal rag but it's pretty crazy some of the shit they've published in the past. But damn, I still have to give you props. I have one measly op-ed link vs. your whole litany of FACTS so you win!

For those who continue asking why the cartoon is problematic or seen as insensitive, Brainonska511 stated it immediately. You can disagree with his statement, but don't sit there and claim it's never been explained. Honestly, I quit arguing about opposing opinions of the cartoon. I'll concede to these fine arguments such as "more links FTW" or that anyone who finds the cartoon insensitive must be a SJW.

This is why I know for a fact that you did NOT follow this thread because if you did, you would be able to see my point very clearly. Here it is, my very first post in this thread, not a freaking thing about race of the players, the artist or anything but this:

Osaka won square and fair. Williams is just like the QB of the Panthers. Smiling and all when winning but whining and full of excuses when things didn't go their ways.

My point was never about the artist, whether he was stand-up guy or not as you claimed it was as my own words and shove it down my throat.

Funny how you IGNORE my link about Martina Navratilova statement of "Just because the guys might be able to get away with it doesn’t mean it’s acceptable" yet rant on and on about James Blake and Andy Roddick. Of course, nothing about do as you say and not as you do, right? Uh huh.

Still nothing from you about shall white people pull the race card out..ooops...have "negative reaction" to this artist because he did exaggerate the features on white folks on multiple occasions? Not a word? What is the matter, cup cake?

OMG, he is against white folks, hateful bastard, let burn him at the stake. What good for the goose is good for the gander, right? ROTFLMAO.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Yes your point is the artist has defended himself, his newspaper defended him, and other Australians have lambasted Serena's behavior. You have moar links, so by ATOT rules, you win the argument!

Guess what, what people assert about Mark Knight's character is somewhat in the realm of personal opinions. What other people opine about Serena's meltdown likewise (I'm on the record here as stating she's mostly in the wrong). Whereas when retired pros James Blake and Andy Roddick simply state they've never been harshly penalized for worse verbal abuse towards an umpire, those aren't really opinions. Those are facts unless they are lying or have poor memory, or someone produces a counter-example.

But since you know for a fact Mark Knight is a stand-up guy, maybe you should read a little more about Australian cartoonists:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...an-cartoon-serena-williams-sexist-racist.html

Yes, Slate is a liberal rag but it's pretty crazy some of the shit they've published in the past. But damn, I still have to give you props. I have one measly op-ed link vs. your whole litany of FACTS so you win!

For those who continue asking why the cartoon is problematic or seen as insensitive, Brainonska511 stated it immediately. You can disagree with his statement, but don't sit there and claim it's never been explained. Honestly, I quit arguing about opposing opinions of the cartoon. I'll concede to these fine arguments such as "more links FTW" or that anyone who finds the cartoon insensitive must be a SJW.

You're entitled to your opinion - the problem with all of your opinions is that you have nothing to base it on. This is a discussion and you make statements such as "The Cartoon is racist".... You offer no real basis or explanation. Your last 5 posts of trying to explain yourself boils down to an answer of "because".

What is your ultimate basis for saying it's racist?

Is it because the cartoon of her is black? Because she is black.

Is it because the cartoon of her is her having a hissy fit? Because she was having a hissy fit.

Is it because the cartoon of her is a caricature and shows things like the fact that she has big lips and is overall a very big person? Because she has big lips and is a very big person. This was shown.


You're probably attributing it to old racist cartoons as if there is a similarity - which there isn't. If that's the case feel free to show away. But you wont. You will just keep going with mindless drivel. You don't get to say "It reminds me of racist cartoons" - you have to you know... actually put in some effort to explain WHY that is.

 

[Artorias]

Apparently, some folks here need basic definitions. Well, here is one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caricature

IMO, those are the most talented people that do caricatures. They not only have to draw beautifully but also have the ability to show exaggerated nature of the subject.

Serena's one is just perfect. She f'd up like a 4 year old. Period.

Racist? Not really. Let's see next time a white or Asian player throws tantrum when they play Serena and let's see the titles then.

Exactly!

 

[zinfamous]

Ahh yes, someone had to play the race card.

I mean, the guy drew a patently racist cartoon. Blame that guy. Her tirade and behavior aside, that cartoon is clearly, undoubtedly, beyond the pale.

 

[baydude]

Does anyone know who won the 2018 US Open tennis championship??

 

[manly]

This is why I know for a fact that you did NOT follow this thread because if you did, you would be able to see my point very clearly. Here it is, my very first post in this thread, not a freaking thing about race of the players, the artist or anything but this:


My point was never about the artist, whether he was stand-up guy or not as you claimed it was as my own words and shove it down my throat.

Funny how you IGNORE my link about Martina Navratilova statement of "Just because the guys might be able to get away with it doesn’t mean it’s acceptable" yet rant on and on about James Blake and Andy Roddick. Of course, nothing about do as you say and not as you do, right? Uh huh.

Still nothing from you about shall white people pull the race card out..ooops...have "negative reaction" to this artist because he did exaggerate the features on white folks on multiple occasions? Not a word? What is the matter, cup cake?

OMG, he is against white folks, hateful bastard, let burn him at the stake. What good for the goose is good for the gander, right? ROTFLMAO.

Yes, I watched the match and wholeheartedly believe Naomi Osaka won fair and square. Although Carlos Ramos may have robbed the fans of a competitive 2nd (or 3rd) set, I take nothing away from Osaka. If Williams can't keep her emotions in check over a point penalty, I'm not going to defend her right to play out the match. Comparing Williams to Cam Newton is laughable, but since you brought it up, I'll respond. Williams is one of the 2 greatest women's tennis players of all time. You may not like her, you may question her physique and insult her looks (I've been there), but most believe she and Steffi Graf have no equals at the top. So likening Williams to Cam Newton as a sore loser is wholly unfair. Even if Williams rubs some fans the wrong way, she probably has her own reasons for wearing a big chip on her shoulders despite all the success.

When the topic of the cartoon came up is when you started linking to the Herald Sun's official denial of racism. But your point was never about Mark Knight when you kept on bringing up his intent with your A+ link game? You're the guy who cited all of your links as irrefutable FACTS. Like I said, I'm done arguing about the cartoon. If Knight has drawn benign caricatures in the past is not evidence that the latest one is without issue.

I read Martina's op-ed and I found it well argued. She clearly believes in taking the high road for the good of the sport. I'll take opinions about this fiasco from those who played the game at the highest level over yours, and I'll do that every single time.

@s0me0nesmind1 The Slate article clearly explains in its second paragraph why some people are offended by the cartoon. Again you can disagree with the stated rationale or remain unconvinced, but quit denying that it has been explained. And unlike other commentators, I've never even said "this cartoon is racist." Honestly there's nothing to debate since a group of you strongly feel this cartoon is perfectly innocent (because the artist even said so!). Let's save the endless talking past each other for P&N.

 

[highland145]

Does anyone know who won the 2018 US Open tennis championship??

Florence.

 

[HomerJS]

You do know that Osaka did look like this and not as you posted while she played for the US Open Championship, right? Blonde ponytail with visor and black top. OMG, it was in the cartoon. How could it be? <awe shock>

And you do know that it was a satire cartoon and not supposed to be an accurate personal portrait, right? Uh huh.

This explains it better then I can. For the record Serena's behavior was bad even though her points were valid.
http://theconversation.com/the-hera...-damaging-history-of-racist-caricature-102982

 

[highland145]

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

This explains it better then I can. For the record Serena's behavior was bad even though her points were valid.
http://theconversation.com/the-hera...-damaging-history-of-racist-caricature-102982

The problem with this incredibly stupid argument is that they do not in the slightest get into what SPECIFICS they are referencing. They just say "It kinda looks sort-a-like this old racist cartoon therefore it's racist".

I challenge you to find a caricature of a black person that you DONT find racist. Because chances are any caricature is always going to rub you the wrong way because you're too inept to see outside of your bias.

 

[Brainonska511]

The problem with this incredibly stupid argument is that they do not in the slightest get into what SPECIFICS they are referencing. They just say "It kinda looks sort-a-like this old racist cartoon therefore it's racist".

I challenge you to find a caricature of a black person that you DONT find racist. Because chances are any caricature is always going to rub you the wrong way because you're too inept to see outside of your bias.

The problem with your argument is you want to ignore the long and storied history that surrounds the depictions of people of color. Whether you like it or not, history casts a long shadow and this artist should have been aware of this when he chose how to depict people.

 

[NetWareHead]

I mean, the guy drew a patently racist cartoon. Blame that guy. Her tirade and behavior aside, that cartoon is clearly, undoubtedly, beyond the pale.

My PoV on this cartoon is that is has to be reasonably accurate in order for the reader to connect the dots and have them realize who the artist is depicting. Someone looking at that cartoon has to quickly identify the depiction as Serena. That means portraying black people with nappy hair, big lips and wide noses; textbook identifiers of those with african heritage. I dont see that as racist but rather drawing a person as they really look. Would a photograph also be racist if the photo shows these characteristics?
Of course when drawing caricature, certain features are bound to be exaggerated for comical purpose. This happens to anybody of any racial background when depicted in caricature. Jay Leno, a white guy, was depicted as having an enormous chin in caricature. Blagojevich depicted as an enormous head of hair. And etc... etc... etc...
The only way to avoid any claims of racism is to "whitewash" any depictions of Serena by drawing her with normal sized lips/hair/nose. But we all know that would lead to crying that we are robbing black people, misrepresenting them, cultural appropriation. Just cant win, so fuck 'em.

 

[13Gigatons]

He mostly trashes white people:

 

[DrunkenSano]

He mostly trashes white people:

Wow, the Herald Sun is like a racism machine gun, out to offend everyone!

People have such thin skin these days, some minor thing will offend them and they getting offended on behalf of other people. Why don't people get offended by violent action movies since it portrays a very pro-gun and pro-violence scenario? Are people who visit comedy skits that use stereotypes or sexist jokes also racists and sexists themselves? No. It's entertainment, you're not supposed to take it seriously. Cartoons are supposed to be entertaining and not boring, sometimes they *gasp* aren't 100% realistic looking and aren't meant to be. People need to take giant butt plugs out of their ass and stop being so offended. Or... go back to living in caves and just watch their single favorite news channel so they don't get offended so easily.

 

[Brainonska511]

He mostly trashes white people:

So if he only draws racist cartoons sometimes, then it's okay? Don't think it works that way.

Wow, the Herald Sun is like a racism machine gun, out to offend everyone!

People have such thin skin these days, some minor thing will offend them and they getting offended on behalf of other people. Why don't people get offended by violent action movies since it portrays a very pro-gun and pro-violence scenario? Are people who visit comedy skits that use stereotypes or sexist jokes also racists and sexists themselves? No. It's entertainment, you're not supposed to take it seriously. Cartoons are supposed to be entertaining and not boring, sometimes they *gasp* aren't 100% realistic looking and aren't meant to be. People need to take giant butt plugs out of their ass and stop being so offended. Or... go back to living in caves and just watch their single favorite news channel so they don't get offended so easily.

Nice whataboutism

 

[NetWareHead]

The problem with your argument is you want to ignore the long and storied history that surrounds the depictions of people of color. Whether you like it or not, history casts a long shadow and this artist should have been aware of this when he chose how to depict people.

Yawn. Every culture/race/creed/ethnic group has it's sob story. Many of us are sick of being told to walk on eggshells for some shit that happened years and years ago. Lets move on and make some progress instead of using history as a crutch and in this case, as reason to lambast a cartoon and it's author with far-reaching accusations of racism.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The problem with your argument is you want to ignore the long and storied history that surrounds the depictions of people of color. Whether you like it or not, history casts a long shadow and this artist should have been aware of this when he chose how to depict people.

Answer my point: What caricature of a black person WILL pass off for you?

I mean, we already know your IQ level just by using terms like "People of color" as a euphanism for someone that is black - yet never using it for anyone else (Asian, Hispanic) - is just facepalm worthy. The hilariousness of supposedly knowing what is racist... more than someone OF THAT RACE is just plain comical.

This is basically you @ 1:04

 

[DrunkenSano]

Nice whataboutism

What? What are you talking about? You must not go to any comedy clubs or watch a lot of movies. Try to get out more, it's good for you.