How to get your F35 fighters for free

[Fayd]

No kidding. How does the fact they are no longer your ally change the need for Iran to have a full nuclear cycle or the legitimacy of its program?

yes, it does. because the fact that they are no longer our ally makes leaving them with the building blocks to the most devastating weapons on the face of the earth a bad move.

 

[P4man]

There are no laws and logic that support terrorist groups such as hezbollah and hamas.

Oh yes there are. You might be forgetting relevant articles of the geneva convention I quoted earlier that expressly allow resisting occupation, that allow the use of force to resist illegal practices by the occupier. Countless UN resolutions reaffirmed that later, like :

UN General Assembly Resolution
37/43, adopted 3 December 1982: “Reaffirms the
legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence,
territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from
colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation
by all available means, including armed struggle.”

http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/40/a40r025.htm

You might also be forgetting that both organisation's political wings where elected in to power by fair and free elections (in so far thats possible in a region where political leaders get abducted and assassinated on a regular basis by the occupier).

There are that are against it.

Name them.

 

[P4man]

yes, it does. because the fact that they are no longer our ally makes leaving them with the building blocks to the most devastating weapons on the face of the earth a bad move.

Quite on the contrary. Disallowing Iran to have those technologies that they are expressly permitted to have under the non proliferation treaty completely undermines the NPT and will cause Iran and other countries to reasses why they would subject themselves to the limitations and inspections from in the NPT in the first place. That will not prevent but guarantee nuclear proliferation.

Every country that signed the NPT, gave up their inherent sovereign right to build nukes, subject themselves to inspections (quite stringent for those that also signed the additional protocols, like Iran), voluntarily in return for certain rights and promises by the nuclear armed states. Those states are already not complying to their promises of nuclear disarmement and not providing aid to non signatories like India;

if you now take away those other rights to even closely monitored civilian nuclear power programs, just because you dont like the regime, there is absolutely no more incentive for any NN state to stay in the NPT. Israel, India and Pakistan figured that out long ago. You really want Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, Taiwan and countless others to come to the same conclusion?

If thats what you want, keep ignoring the NPT and deny Iran its rights. I dont think its very smart.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Oh yes there are. You might be forgetting relevant articles of the geneva convention I quoted earlier that expressly allow resisting occupation, that allow the use of force to resist illegal practices by the occupier. Countless UN resolutions reaffirmed that later, like :

http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/40/a40r025.htm

Armed struggle and specifically targeting citizens are two seperate things and as such has caused groups like Hamas and hezbollah to be classified as terroris entities.

You might also be forgetting that both organisation's political wings where elected in to power by fair and free elections (in so far thats possible in a region where political leaders get abducted and assassinated on a regular basis by the occupier).

Since when was Hezbollah elected into power?

Hamas took over Gaza after they killed hundreds of fatah members and made them flee to the west bank. There was nothing fair or free about it.

Name them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

Multiple countries, including Sunni Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan,[6] have condemned actions by Hezbollah. The United States, United Kingdom, Egypt,[7] Israel, Australia, and Canada regard Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, in whole or in part.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Australia The military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, is listed as a terrorist organization.[317]

Canada Lists Hamas as a terrorist group in the Canadian Criminal Code.[318][319]

European Union Hamas has been included in the black list of EU-designated terrorists groups since 2003[7]

Israel The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Hamas maintains a terrorist infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank, and acts to carry out terrorist attacks in the territories and Israel."[320]

Japan Stated in 2005 that it had frozen the assets of "terrorist organizations, including... Hamas."[12][321]

Jordan Banned Hamas in 1999[322]

United Kingdom Hamas as a whole was designated a terrorist organization by the UK Government in 2003 with no distinction made between its military and non-military wings.[327]

United States Lists Hamas as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization"[328]

The world consider these groups terrorist organizations.

The very heads of the UN Table you hold so dearly.

Stop picking and choosing what parts of the UN you want to follow. Either you are all in or all out.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

P4man, do you honestly believe that Iran would use nuclear power for peace only? They have a history of arming terrorist organizations and all of our enemies. How could their having nuclear power possibly be viewed as beneficial to the world?

 

[Freshgeardude]

P4man, do you honestly believe that Iran would use nuclear power for peace only? They have a history of arming terrorist organizations and all of our enemies. How could their having nuclear power possibly be viewed as beneficial to the world?

CV, p4man is simply closed minded. he doesnt think hezbollah or hamas are terrorist groups, so by his definition, they are the knight in shining armor for the middle east

 

[P4man]

P4man, do you honestly believe that Iran would use nuclear power for peace only?

Thats what 16 intelligence agencies of the US unanimously proclaimed to be their best assessment today. But that doesnt even matter; the whole premise of the NPT is based on distrust.

You dont have to trust the Iranian regime on their word, nor any other regime, you have to rigorously inspect their programs.

Its impossible to secretly build a nuke while under IAEA monitoring, especially those countries that subjected themselves to the additional protocols. No country in 40 years has managed to build nukes secretively while under NPT safeguards and the IAEA is quite clear its 100% certain no nuclear material has been diverted for non peaceful means in Iran. All the material is accounted for.

If one day, Iran starts diverting material, then you can talk about sanctions, or even military action You will have several years before they would have a nuke after they started. THATs why its so bloody important Iran (and all other countries) remains cooperative with the IAEA and a member of the NPT. Thats the only way to guarantee its not building a nuke.

By not following our end of the bargain, we are sure to drive countries like Iran, but also besides Iran out of the NPT, and dont think we will be able to stop them all from building nukes secretly or publically when they decide to do so. We havent stopped Pakistan, nor India, nor South Africa, nor North Korea nor Israel. We have prevented all 180+ countries that did sign the NPT from building nukes as long as they were in the NPT.

They have a history of arming terrorist organizations and all of our enemies. How could their having nuclear power possibly be viewed as beneficial to the world?

Its beneficial to the world to have a non proliferation treaty that actually prevents rather than stimulates proliferation. Without NPT, Iran will be able to build a bomb if it so desires, its that simple really.

 

[P4man]

CV, p4man is simply closed minded. he doesnt think hezbollah or hamas are terrorist groups, so by his definition, they are the knight in shining armor for the middle east

"Terrorist organisation" is the word you slap on resistance movements that resist your worldview, freedom fighters would be the word for resistance fighters that do take marching orders from you. Or other fancy names like "Northern Alliance" or "Awakening counsil" or Haganah/Etzel/Irgun/..IDF

Im sorry my world isnt as black and white as yours. Not much is black and white in that region, there are no knights in shining armor, I dont know how many demonstrations of Jewish/Israeli terrorism, warcrimes and blatant breaches of international law it takes to convince you of that.

All I know is that there are international laws, and if we make all parties obey those, that would be a pretty damn good start and far more effective than debating who is a terrorist.

BTW, if you didnt know Hezbollah participates in elections in Lebanon, do some more reading.

 

[Freshgeardude]

"Terrorist organisation" is the word you slap on resistance movements that resist your worldview, freedom fighters would be the word for resistance fighters that do take marching orders from you. Or other fancy names like "Northern Alliance" or "Awakening counsil" or Haganah/Etzel/Irgun/..IDF

Im sorry my world isnt as black and white as yours. Not much is black and white in that region, there are no knights in shining armor, I dont know how many demonstrations of Jewish/Israeli terrorism, warcrimes and blatant breaches of international law it takes to convince you of that.

All I know is that there are international laws, and if we make all parties obey those, that would be a pretty damn good start and far more effective than debating who is a terrorist.

BTW, if you didnt know Hezbollah participates in elections in Lebanon, do some more reading.

im not the one who designated hamas an hezbollah as terrorist groups, the world powers did, so your logic is fail

 

[P4man]

Your world must be a lot smaller than mine. In mine there are about 195 countries, and if I count the inhabitants of that list of US allies you quoted, I dont even come anywhere near the population of just China or India alone. You might want to look up how they view the Palestine issue.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Your world must be a lot smaller than mine. In mine there are about 195 countries, and if I count the inhabitants of that list of US allies you quoted, I dont even come anywhere near the population of just China or India alone. You might want to look up how they view the Palestine issue.

What does population have to do with the world powers deciding hamas and hezbollah being terrorist organizations?


you are trying to deflect off topic yet again.


does the truth hurt?

 

[P4man]

Only in your world is Canada, Jordan or Australia a world power, and Russia, China or India not.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Only in your world is Canada, Jordan or Australia a world power, and Russia, China or India not.

I didnt say that.


Some of the world powers consider them terrorist entities


Other countries that consider them terrorist entities just reaffirms what i said.


oh and please, china and russia only dont classify them as terrorists because they know it will piss off their supply of oil.

 

[Lemon law]

I have to agree with P4man on this larger side argument.

The USA is a status quo power, and therefore the USA wants to preserve the existing power structure that they formerly prospered in.

The USA as a staus quo power is doing a horrible job of trying to stop change, and worse yet, doing an even more horrible job at exploiting the inevitable changes.

 

[JEDIYoda]

P4man on the other hand is all over the map....
One minute he state the IEAE has jurisdition over all things nuclear and over other countries nuclear efforts and enforcement power yet in the next breath he states countries can refuse to allow the IEAE to monitor other countries nuclear efforts.


Then P4man states the UN is all powerful and the members must abide by and all that garbage....

Hell, even lemon law knows in a perfect world all treaties and things agreed on and charters would be adherd too....

But this is not a perfect world..lol

 

[Lemon law]

JediY says, "Hell, even lemon law knows in a perfect world all treaties and things agreed on and charters would be adherd too....

But this is not a perfect world..lol "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can certainly agree this is far from being a perfect world, but it must just fly right over my minuscule mind exactly why its any reason for the larger world to continue to accept Israeli bullshit and stalling on a Palestinian State.

Did I miss something here JediY? Please explain. Because it basically sounds like you are citing Israel as a prime example of why the world is less perfect.

 

[P4man]

oh and please, china and russia only dont classify them as terrorists because they know it will piss off their supply of oil.

Yeah lol. As if Russia is an oil importer!
Oops. try again. Maybe its because they love Muslims? Like those Chechen terrorists.. that in the West we almost never call terrorists but Chechen rebels for some reason? That would also explain why India loves them, no doubt.

When are you going to open your eyes?

 

[Zebo]

Kill em all and let Allah sort them out.

It's coming.


You havnt seen nothin yet. Wait till resource wars start.

You realize oil is at top of bell curve? You realize oil is everything? 10/10 things around you was because of oil. You computer used at least 2 barrels of oil to make. We will not accept re-primitvization lightly. prepare.

 

[P4man]

P4man on the other hand is all over the map....
One minute he state the IEAE has jurisdition over all things nuclear and over other countries nuclear efforts and enforcement power yet in the next breath he states countries can refuse to allow the IEAE to monitor other countries nuclear efforts.

Clearly you have no idea how the NPT works. Im sorry if its somehow confusing to you, considering how simple it really is; the NPT is a treaty that a country voluntarily signs (or not, especially if you are a rogue state that desires nukes).

By signing it, any country other than the recognized nuclear powers waves its sovereign right to build nukes (but not its "inalienable" right to develop a full nuclear cycle!), gives the IAEA permission to inspect their nuclear program to verify this and subjects itself to sanctions when its found violating the NPT.

In return those countries get certain promises from the nuclear states, like that they will disarm, will not aid non signatories (like India *cough* or Israel) to develop nukes, and will aid the signatories with their civilian program. Iran signed this. As did over 180 other countries. Israel did not.

Any country can withdraw from the treaty with a 3 month notice. After which, the IAEA has absolutely zero oversight and can be kicked out of the country without legal repercussion and there is no other legal obstruction to building nuclear weapons. The NPT is the only thing that prevents a country from legally building a nuke. The IAEA estimated 35-40 countries have the required knowledge to build a nuke.

Now, do you think its good or bad all but a few countries in the world voluntarily waved their right to nukes and let the IAEA monitor their nuclear programs to ensure they are not building nukes? Or would you rather live in your non perfect world where several dozen states follow the shining example set by India, Pakistan, North Korea and Israel and start building nukes?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Clearly you have no idea how the NPT works. Im sorry if its somehow confusing to you, considering how simple it really is; the NPT is a treaty that a country voluntarily signs (or not, especially if you are a rogue state that desires nukes).

By signing it, any country other than the recognized nuclear powers waves its sovereign right to build nukes (but not its "inalienable" right to develop a full nuclear cycle!), gives the IAEA permission to inspect their nuclear program to verify this and subjects itself to sanctions when its found violating the NPT.

In return those countries get certain promises from the nuclear states, like that they will disarm, will not aid non signatories (like India *cough* or Israel) to develop nukes, and will aid the signatories with their civilian program. Iran signed this. As did over 180 other countries. Israel did not.

Any country can withdraw from the treaty with a 3 month notice. After which, the IAEA has absolutely zero oversight and can be kicked out of the country without legal repercussion and there is no other legal obstruction to building nuclear weapons. The NPT is the only thing that prevents a country from legally building a nuke. The IAEA estimated 35-40 countries have the required knowledge to build a nuke.

Now, do you think its good or bad all but a few countries in the world voluntarily waved their right to nukes and let the IAEA monitor their nuclear programs to ensure they are not building nukes? Or would you rather live in your non perfect world where several dozen states follow the shining example set by India, Pakistan, North Korea and Israel and start building nukes?

Clearly yopur as looney tunes as they come.....
One minute you say the IEAE had authority over...the next minute you say nay...then you laumch inbto a pile full of baloney that you think backs your wishy washyness on the issues...

make up your mind you cannot have it both way.......

BTW the NPT is just like the UN, a paper tiger.....

Keep playing your wishy washy games.
You think you have an explanation for all your wishy washy stoopidity...well you don`t!

 

[P4man]

Kill em all and let Allah sort them out.

Nice job torpedoing the argument of your compatriots trying to brush the US as the righteous party here. Now how will they argue Hamas is evil when you are advocating the US commit the biggest genocide in history to get your paws on more oil?

It's coming.
You havnt seen nothin yet. Wait till resource wars start.

Yeah good luck with that. Last time I checked you spent $3 trillion borrowed from China to defeat a badly crippled WW2 army of a hated dictator, who's soldiers barely even shot back. ANd you spent more trying to defeat a bunch of armed peasants in Afghanistan and all you've really conquered is Kabul. If you plan on invading Iran now, indeed you aint seen nothing yet.

At least he US administration seems to have realized the impossibility and is now focusing its attention on one of the few countries in the region it might actually conquer, even though it barely has any oil. Good luck in your Yemen war.

We will not accept re-primitvization lightly. prepare.

Funny. I thought the idea of fighting wars of conquest and committing genocide for a resource we are running out of anyway, is primitive.

 

[P4man]

One minute you say the IEAE had authority over...the next minute you say nay...then you laumch inbto a pile full of baloney that you think backs your wishy washyness on the issues...

Yeah I already feared concepts like treaties and sovereignty are too difficult for you. Maybe we can try again when you turn 15?

 

[Nebor]

Nice job torpedoing the argument of your compatriots trying to brush the US as the righteous party here. Now how will they argue Hamas is evil when you are advocating the US commit the biggest genocide in history to get your paws on more oil?

If I have to choose between righteousness and F22s, I'll pick the country with the F22s.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Yeah lol. As if Russia is an oil importer!
Oops. try again. Maybe its because they love Muslims? Like those Chechen terrorists.. that in the West we almost never call terrorists but Chechen rebels for some reason? That would also explain why India loves them, no doubt.

When are you going to open your eyes?

sorry, i mis-typed. China.

russia's biggest arms sales are to the muslims, which means money for them.

 

[SamurAchzar]

"Terrorist organisation" is the word you slap on resistance movements that resist your worldview, freedom fighters would be the word for resistance fighters that do take marching orders from you. Or other fancy names like "Northern Alliance" or "Awakening counsil" or Haganah/Etzel/Irgun/..IDF

Of course it is like that; all people take sides. Even by seemingly not taking side, if you are typing it from the comfort of your home in a Western country and not from a batcave on the Pakistani border, then you HAVE taken side - of those who are recognized by US as terrorists.

Im sorry my world isnt as black and white as yours. Not much is black and white in that region, there are no knights in shining armor, I dont know how many demonstrations of Jewish/Israeli terrorism, warcrimes and blatant breaches of international law it takes to convince you of that.

All I know is that there are international laws, and if we make all parties obey those, that would be a pretty damn good start and far more effective than debating who is a terrorist.

You can only be as good as your neighbors, so far the Israelis have an incredible track record of preventing nuclear proliferation (both covertly and openly), assassinating terrorist leaders and stopping suicide bombers, to the point it effectively disabled PLO, Hamas and Hizballah from carrying on attacks. I'm sure you cried murder in each of those cases, but, see, the Israeli government's only obligation is towards the safety of its citizens.

The international law is obsolete in many ways; it does not provide remedies against stateless global terrorism, and in effect, it is not obeyed by any country (as Wikileaks material attest). It is a cynical platform for politically attacking your opponent, just like the UN is.

Now, you go and tell us more scary story of how Iran withdrawing from the NPT will cause a nuclear arms race while nearly every Arab country has been begging US to bomb them. Funnily, Egypt and Jordan coexisted alongside a nuclear Israel for years, only now are they beginning to get worried.

BTW, if you didnt know Hezbollah participates in elections in Lebanon, do some more reading.

Yes, they do that, and that's where their similarities to a political party end; they have their own army, foreign relations and as revealed today, their own communication network. They are the only "party" in the world with ballistic missiles.

I'm pretty amused by this exchange; you seem too well versed to be misguided College grad. No, you're probably sitting somewhere patting your Muslim-standard beard, happy at your mastery of western tactics against the Westerners themselves. You seem to think that with terms like "International Law", "NPT" and the discussion of how poor the Palestinians are, you can divert our eyes from the fact that a country controlled by an assembly of Mullahs, who believe they will have salvation by an apocalypse, are enriching nuclear material while acquiring more and more ballistic technologies, and pumping weapons to Hizballah, Hamas and Iraqi insurgents. There MUST be a clause in the international law dealing with such a situation, right?