How to get your F35 fighters for free

[EagleKeeper]

Let Israel recognize the legitimate rights of the Palestinians first

If Israel declares that it will give the Palestinian people a state and give them back all their rights

Who/what determines legitimate rights. This makes is sound that the Palestinians want/entitled to everything that they say is theirs.

One of those rights is the right of return and compensation.

The Palestinian people/leaders know what will and will not fly. Camp David & Oslo demonstrated such.

Israel will not accept this - it is a reward for those that supported the Arabs against Israel.

It is not the borders that Hamas is concerned about, they are still interested in war.
Yesterday, they fired into Israel from Gaza. Act of friendship?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Young Jedi, dont tell me you still havent figured out how a treaty works? There is only confusion about that in your mind, anyone with an IQ over 60 understands the difference between a country that is party to the NPT and one that isnt or pulls out.

As to the Hamas drivel. You probably were still in your diapers when this was considered news, so you might be forgiven for having missed it in 2006, but Hamas is definitely willing to recognize Israel, but an Israel with fixed borders (that also happen to be most of the borders of a Palestenian state, one that Israel is not willing to recognize). If you think it through, it actually makes sense. You dont recognize illegal borders first, then start negotiating over them to get your land back.

To quote Hamas leader:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3220875,00.html

hamas called the recent peace talks a failure before they even started, they committed terrorist attacks.


that link you quoted is pure bullshit

 

[EagleKeeper]

Actually the link itself when taken in full context is not. It is the snipping of quotes by p4man that is BS.

The Hamas leader deflected every hard question put to him; putting the blame on Israel and ignoring any questions regarding the actions of Hamas.

It was give me what I want and only then might I give you what you want. No promises though.

 

[Lemon law]

As FGD and CC poo poo the Hamas position, they ignore another more recent new Hamas position. Namely even though Hamas does not recognize the right of Abbas to negotiate with Israel over Palestinian issues, any agreement Abbas signs with Israel will be put up in a referendum style up or down popular vote by the people of Gaza. Meaning the people of Gaza and not Hamas would be the deciders.

But no present danger of it coming down to a popular vote in Gaza, Abbas and Israel are not on speaking terms.

The big danger for Israel is that world will blame Israel for the collapse of negotiations, but wait, Israeli blew all their credibility as the honest ones at Annapolis three years ago. But pro Israeli fan clubbers will never recognize reality until long after the adverse consequences pile up. Since not enough adverse consequences have piled up yet, we await the coming new consequences that have remained in limbo as long as Obama brokered peace talks have remained. And we also await a possible Obama plan B that may be announced this coming Friday.

Until then, all these P&N debates are pissing contests and nothing more.

 

[theeedude]

Israel presently is surrounded by 4 hostile groups.

• Hezbollah on the North
  • [*]Presently constrained by the UN border watchers and the IDF
    [*]Last incident was embarassing to Lebanon
    [*]Last serious indident crippled Hezbollah militarily for a period of time and had serious impact on civilians.
    [*]Hezbollah asked for peace and forgiveness and then has broken the truce
    [*]Civilian arm (good); militant arm (bad - lack of respect for civilians)
    [*]Support by Syria/Iran w/ arms & funds and trying to control Lebanon as a country​
• Syria on the North
  
  • They do not want to formally tangle with the IDF
  • Recently shown up when the undeclared reactor was destroyed by the IAF
  • Supported by Iran
• Palestinians on the West Bank
  
  • Presently trying for a peaceful solution to the Palestinian predicament
  • Hobbled by split faction with Hamas
  • With the wall, terrorism against Isaerli civilians within Israel proper has been eliminated.
  • Sticking point to peace is boundaries - longer the delay; more the potential boundaries shift.
  • Supported by world funds and some radicals.
  • Rejected by Jordan
• Hamas out of Gaza
  
  • Refuse to accept Israel per charter and public statements by leaders
  • Still have a hostage
  • No problems executing those that do not support their brand.
  • Civilian arm (good); militant arm (bad - lack of respect for civilians)
  • Munitions are more important than food/supplies for civilians
  • Control the economy
  • Last serious incident hurt Hamas militarily for a period of time and had serious impact on civilians.
  • Supported by Iran & radicals with funds. Arms are attempted to be smuggled in.
  • Rejected by Egypt

Hamas is active in the hostility against Israel and has not demonstrated that they honor/enforce peace treaties with Israel. They actively encourage hostility and train handicapped kids and females for suicide missions. They know those missions accomplish nothing except PR value.

Their intention is not to live side by side with Israel but to destroy Israel. that will cement their place in history.

And guess where Israel is building settlements? Oh, that's right, the West Bank. So the one neighbor on your list that is still trying for a peaceful solution is getting it's land seized and settled by Israel.

 

[P4man]

Who/what determines legitimate rights. This makes is sound that the Palestinians want/entitled to everything that they say is theirs.

Thats what you have geneva conventions and UN resolutions for, and if you need arbitration you have international courts of law. Of course, declaring them obsolete and then blaming the other party for not wanting to negotiate after you declared the UN and human rights null and void, is I suppose one opinion.

One of those rights is the right of return and compensation.

Indeed. As per UN resolutions 194 and 3236, voted 99 to nil. I guess that makes it an exuberant demand. more info here:
http://www.badil.org/en/al-majdal/item/3-resolution-194-iii-a-retrospective

It is not the borders that Hamas is concerned about, they are still interested in war.
Yesterday, they fired into Israel from Gaza. Act of friendship?

Why on earth should they be friendly while Israel continues wiping its ass with UN resolutions and cant even be bribed with billions of dollars to suspend violating the geneva convention for a few weeks? They have every right to resist, and if they wouldnt be resisting now, when should they?

 

[EagleKeeper]

And guess where Israel is building settlements? Oh, that's right, the West Bank. So the one neighbor on your list that is still trying for a peaceful solution is getting it's land seized and settled by Israel.

Agreed that the land is being taken due to the fact that the Palestinians have not yet come to any agreement regarding Palestinian boundaries.
No Palestinian state exists and the land is under control of Israel. Some is what Israel has taken, other is what has been sold. Construction if Jersulem is on land owned by the Jews but the Palestinians still complain about it.

The Arab nations had no qualms about taking Jewish property before Israel became a state and attempting to take Jewish property after Israel became a state.

Why is this being treated different?

The Palestinians have been focused up to this point in negotiations on what they can not have and ignored what was available for the easy pickings.
They walked out of both Camp David and Oslo with what the world considered good deals. However, there were those within the Palestinian community that wanted everything and destroyed the agreements leaving the Palestinians with the status quo.

Now with the Palestinian leadership not firmly in place, who represents the Palestinians - the elected leadership or the fractured leadership?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Why on earth should they be friendly while Israel continues wiping its ass with UN resolutions and cant even be bribed with billions of dollars to suspend violating the geneva convention for a few weeks? They have every right to resist, and if they wouldnt be resisting now, when should they?

Israel suspended the construction activity for 10 months.
The Palestinians refused to show until they were bribed.

When the promised suspension expired, the Palestinians walked without having accomplishing anything.

Israel is still at the table - where are the Palestinians.

Israel never said anyting about the bribes - it was the US that announced and then punted.

The Geneva convention should only apply to one side and not the other?
The UN resolutions should only be honored by Israel and not the Arabs?

 

[P4man]

Israel is still at the table - where are the Palestinians.

Israel isnt even willing to put some of the Palestenians most fundamental demands (all of them backed by UN resolutions) ON the table, what point is there in giving them even a hint of legitimacy by joining such table ? Discuss a border while at the very same moment Israel keeps illegally pushing the defacto border further every day?

The Geneva convention should only apply to one side and not the other?
The UN resolutions should only be honored by Israel and not the Arabs?

Nope, they should be honored by both. Which handful of geneva convention articles are the Palestinians violating on a daily basis perhaps?

 

[EagleKeeper]

When the UN resolutions in the beginning were Arab backed and controlled; it becomes suspicious.

The Palestinians made their bed 60+ years ago when they sided with the Arabas to destroy Israel.
And for the next 30, they have kept at it siding with the losing team.

Then for then last 30 they have continually tried to destroy Israel through civilian terror attacks.

When the UN condems them, they ignore; just like Israel does.

When they were the big dog on the block, they wanted everything and could not get it.
Now they are the little terrier that thinking they can still be the big dog.

Ain't going to happen.

The longer they maintain their fantasy; the harder it will get for them to get back to reality.

The '67 borders are long gone.
Jerusalem is not going to be Palestinian/Arab controlled. It was tried once and failed.

The Palestinians are going to be only a territory until they realize that they have to be responsbile enough to act like a state. That will require both areas (Gaza and WB) to grow up and accept responsibility for each other and the others actions.

They had 95% and wanted the other 5%. They got nothing.
That 95% is shrinking and the losses are being set n concrete.

I have no idea what type of bribes are going to have to be put forth to get the Palestinians and Israels back to the table. Or is it even really productive?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Young Jedi, dont tell me you still havent figured out how a treaty works? There is only confusion about that in your mind, anyone with an IQ over 60 understands the difference between a country that is party to the NPT and one that isnt or pulls out.

As to the Hamas drivel. You probably were still in your diapers when this was considered news, so you might be forgiven for having missed it in 2006, but Hamas is definitely willing to recognize Israel, but an Israel with fixed borders (that also happen to be most of the borders of a Palestenian state, one that Israel is not willing to recognize). If you think it through, it actually makes sense. You dont recognize illegal borders first, then start negotiating over them to get your land back.

To quote Hamas leader:

Quote:
We say: Let Israel recognize the legitimate rights of the Palestinians first and then we will have a position regarding this. Which Israel should we recognize? The Israel of 1917; the Israel of 1936; the Israel of 1948; the Israel of 1956; or the Israel of 1967? Which borders and which Israel? Israel has to recognize first the Palestinian state and its borders and then we will know what we are talking about

<...>
Will you recognize Israel?

If Israel declares that it will give the Palestinian people a state and give them back all their rights, then we are ready to recognize them.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...220875,00.html

== link is pure bullshit!!

P4man I have been a citizen of Israel for longer than you have been alive...50+ years.

o

In fact lets us quote some of the link - seeing how P4man picks and choses--

Senior Hamas member Ismail Haniyeh, who is designated to become the Palestinian prime minister, told Newsweek Magazine and the Washington Post that "We do not wish to throw them into the sea." At the same time, Haniyeh did not show any real flexibility over Hamas' stance, and refused to delete Hamas' call for Israel's destruction. He repeatedly said that any diplomatic developments could only be possible after Israel recognized Palestinian rights.


Haniyeh, who is looking to win points in the American court of public opinion in order to prevent a cut off of U.S. aid to the Palestinians, promised during the interview: "We are not war seekers nor are we war initiators. We are not lovers of blood. We are not interested in a vicious cycle of violence. We are oppressed people with rights. If peace brings us our rights, then this is good."


Haniyeh added that he and other Hamas members were surprised by the international demand that Hamas recognizes Israel and agreements signed
with Israel, and give up terrorism. "Why don't they direct such conditions and questions to Israel? Has Israel respected agreements? Israel has bypassed practically all agreements. We say: Let Israel recognize the legitimate rights of the Palestinians first and then we will have a position regarding this. Which Israel should we recognize? The Israel of 1917; the Israel of 1936; the Israel of 1948; the Israel of 1956; or the Israel of 1967? Which borders and which Israel? Israel has to recognize first the Palestinian state and its borders and then we will know what we are talking about."


The Hamas member evaded a question on a two-state solution, the signing of agreements, and the withdrawal from Gaza.


When asked whether he accepted Oslo, Heniyeh said that "Israel has stopped completely committing itself to Oslo."


He added: "Oslo stated that a Palestinian state would be established by 1999. Where is this Palestinian state? Has Oslo given the right to Israel to reoccupy the West Bank, to build the wall and expand the settlements, and to Judaize Jerusalem and make it totally Jewish? Has Israel been given the right to disrupt the work on the port and airport in Gaza? Has Oslo given them the right to besiege Gaza and to stop all tax refunds from the Palestinian Authority?"


Haniyeh was careful not to say during the interview that he was not obligated by agreements signed by Israel and the Palestinians. When asked: " So you will not abide by past agreements made by the Palestinians and Israel?" Haniyeh replied: I have not said that… We will review all agreements and abide by those that are in the interest of the Palestinian people."


What agreements will you honor?


The ones that will guarantee the establishment of a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital with 1967 borders -- as well as agreements that would release prisoners.

Your own link kicks your ass and goes against you....

This link is probably one of the best examples of self - ownage!!

 

[P4man]

When the UN resolutions in the beginning were Arab backed and controlled; it becomes suspicious.

So now you are saying it was the "Arab controlled" UN that created Israel in the first place?

When the UN condems them, they ignore; just like Israel does.

Which resolutions?
Here is a list of UN resolutions again Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

I cant seem to find any that the Palestinians keep ignoring, so help us out.

The '67 borders are long gone.

Well that much is true:

And you really expect Palestenians to negotiate over those crumbs that are left while at the same time Israel is stealing even more?

Jerusalem is not going to be Palestinian/Arab controlled. It was tried once and failed.

Once? LOL, throughout history! Here is what the UN says on the Israeli annexation of Jerusalem:

any actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration on the Holy City of Jerusalem are illegal and therefore null and void and have no validity whatsoever, and calls upon Israel to cease all such illegal and unilateral measures

 

[EagleKeeper]

The Arabs ran to the UN for cover when they were unable to do anything with Israel militarily.

Yet they were the agressors and powerhouse using the Palestinians as willing pawns.

 

[P4man]

One more time, where is that list of UN resolutions the Palestinians are violating ?

Besides, you can't just toss Palestinians and Arab nations together and warrant blatant daily human right violations by something other countries did (and arguably for good reason) over half a century ago.

Can in your mind israel claim London as its capital because the British sided with the Arabs in 1948? Or rather, not london, but annex Washington since the US where allied with the Brits who did the fighting? Maybe thats a solution, you give m Washington so Israel can give back the west bank and Jerusalem. ill be curious if you will protest peacefully behind your annexation wall.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Palestinians and their supporters know that the right of return will mean either Israel ceases to exist, turning into yet another failed Arab state, or that the Israelis will have to impose a true Apartheid (discrimination between citizens) and ruling of the minority in order to survive, thus putting it in the same position of the former South Africa. Paraphrasing the old saying, what can't be taken away from Israel militarily, will be taken by the womb of the Arab woman.
I'm sure everyone - and especially Palestinians supporters - are aware of the bloodbath that will ensue if Jews find themselves as a minority.

Israel would sooner drop each and every nuke it has before putting Jews under Muslim control. The Palestinians know the odds of being given a free pass into Israel are none, but still insist on it; it's a way of preventing any kind of deal from materializing. The "moderate" Palestinians who would like some independent future for their people would have, perhaps, given up on that as part of a comprehensive and final agreement, but they know that they will be tagged as traitors and hanged for others to see.

Furthermore, the European Court Of Human Rights practically dismissed the "right of return" in a ruling about Cyprus not long ago (read here). If you overlook the double standards applying to Israel's case, it should not be different here. Compensation - yes, return - no.

 

[P4man]

Palestinians and their supporters know that the right of return will mean either Israel ceases to exist, turning into yet another failed Arab state, or that the Israelis will have to impose a true Apartheid (discrimination between citizens) and ruling of the minority in order to survive, thus putting it in the same position of the former South Africa.

And how did SA overcome that problem? Step 1, you talk to the 'terrorists'.

Paraphrasing the old saying, what can't be taken away from Israel militarily, will be taken by the womb of the Arab woman.
I'm sure everyone - and especially Palestinians supporters - are aware of the bloodbath that will ensue if Jews find themselves as a minority.

Ah yes. Even though Arabs and Jews have lived together peacefully for centuries, and still do in many places. We heard those same excuses in the 80s from the white supremacists.

Here is the thing though; if you want to be an ethnically clean apartheid state, then at the very least do so within your own borders and not on territories and holy cities that aren't yours. If you want the Palestinians and Arabs out of your promised land, then why the f* are you building settlements on their land? remember this:

You cant at the same time say you dont want a state with the Palestinians, while taking basically all of their land. That way you ensure the only possible solution is a one state solution which you claim you dont want.

Make up your mind!

Israel would sooner drop each and every nuke it has before putting Jews under Muslim control.

That says a lot about Israel, doesnt it? Even if that where the result of a democratic process, you'd still nuke them I bet. But yeah, Arabs ought to worry about Iran..!

Furthermore, the European Court Of Human Rights practically dismissed the "right of return" in a ruling about Cyprus not long ago (read here). If you overlook the double standards applying to Israel's case, it should not be different here. Compensation - yes, return - no.

If you think the law is on your side, fight it before court then, shelling cities and stealing land isnt a compelling legal argument.

 

[theeedude]

Agreed that the land is being taken due to the fact that the Palestinians have not yet come to any agreement regarding Palestinian boundaries.
No Palestinian state exists and the land is under control of Israel. Some is what Israel has taken, other is what has been sold. Construction if Jersulem is on land owned by the Jews but the Palestinians still complain about it.

The Arab nations had no qualms about taking Jewish property before Israel became a state and attempting to take Jewish property after Israel became a state.

Why is this being treated different?

The Palestinians have been focused up to this point in negotiations on what they can not have and ignored what was available for the easy pickings.
They walked out of both Camp David and Oslo with what the world considered good deals. However, there were those within the Palestinian community that wanted everything and destroyed the agreements leaving the Palestinians with the status quo.

Now with the Palestinian leadership not firmly in place, who represents the Palestinians - the elected leadership or the fractured leadership?

It's going to be 1967 borders, there is nothing else for the Palestinians to focus on. Anyways, I am glad the deal fell through. Giving Israel F35s for stuff they are supposed to do anyways is a waste of US taxpayer money.

 

[EagleKeeper]

If you think the law is on your side, fight it before court then, shelling cities and stealing land isnt a compelling legal argument.

Funny that the courts did not do anything when the Arabs attacked Israel each time. Rigged?

But when the shoe is on the other foot ti becomes critical.

The Palestinians have to want peace and be willing to talk to Israel. At present, they find excuses to not do so.

Using the South Africa example; both sides sincerly wanted a solution and were willing to talk and arrive at one.

Here, excuses are the order of the day. Reminds me of some talks where they spent months determining what shape the table would be for talks.

 

[EagleKeeper]

It's going to be 1967 borders, there is nothing else for the Palestinians to focus on. Anyways, I am glad the deal fell through. Giving Israel F35s for stuff they are supposed to do anyways is a waste of US taxpayer money.

Israel has been willing to go to the table and talk.
They already froze construction once as an inducement for the Palestinians to talk.
That inducement failed - the Palestinians did not want to talk.

Why should Israel do it again when the Palestinians are not serious? It just empowers the Palestinians to think that they can control the complete process.

It is two groups trying to resolve differences; not one group dictating to the other and expecting the other to bow down and agree.

Bribes should not come into play - it should be an honest intent to solve issues. Bribes indicate false sincerity and unleveled playing fields.

If it was only the borders, then a potential solution could be had. The Palestinians want to bring up all their issues knowing that it will stall/break talks.

 

[SamurAchzar]

And how did SA overcome that problem? Step 1, you talk to the 'terrorists'.

It didn't. Whites got murdered and their property taken away, top ranking in rapes and murders... it turned into a hell.

Ah yes. Even though Arabs and Jews have lived together peacefully for centuries, and still do in many places. We heard those same excuses in the 80s from the white supremacists.

Arabs attacked the Jewish minorities in their countries, forcing them to flee. Jews left billions of dollars worth of property behind. What compensation is there for them?

Here is the thing though; if you want to be an ethnically clean apartheid state, then at the very least do so within your own borders and not on territories and holy cities that aren't yours. If you want the Palestinians and Arabs out of your promised land, then why the f* are you building settlements on their land? remember this:

Remember the Arab reaction to the partition plan? It was very subtle, a combined attack of 5 Arab nations on the Jewish population, in an attempt to, as the Arabs say, "drive them into the sea". The partition plan died right then.

You cant at the same time say you dont want a state with the Palestinians, while taking basically all of their land. That way you ensure the only possible solution is a one state solution which you claim you dont want.

Israeli government and Israeli public, both through polls and through elections, have repeatedly expressed their interest at withdrawing from Gaza and the West Bank. However this concept of separation can not work when rockets are fired into Israel and when Palestinians want to flood Israel with their battalions of eternal (3rd and 4th generation) refugees. What they want, basically, are two Palestines - their own state, and Israel with an Arab majority. This won't happen.

That says a lot about Israel, doesnt it? Even if that where the result of a democratic process, you'd still nuke them I bet. But yeah, Arabs ought to worry about Iran..!

Each and every country armed with nukes would use them before submitting to their Muslim overlords. I want to see a single, non-Muslim person in this forum - as liberal and dumb as they come - who would agree to live under Muslim control - not to mention the striking disparity between Israel and Arabs in terms of education, GDP, governance, freedom of speech and press... these population can't be integrated, not from a civilian standpoint, not from a religious one and not from an economic one.

If you think the law is on your side, fight it before court then, shelling cities and stealing land isnt a compelling legal argument.

Israel doesn't need to fight any law, it has the upper hand military and politically. This can go on for 100 more years and no one would give a fuck.

 

[theeedude]

Israel doesn't need to fight any law, it has the upper hand military and politically. This can go on for 100 more years and no one would give a fuck.

That's what Apartheid South Africa thought.
Israel needs US support to survive. US is starting to have bigger problems at home.

 

[EagleKeeper]

What support is the US providing to survive?

If anything, the US support has been preventing the spanking of those that attack Israel.

 

[JEDIYoda]

That's what Apartheid South Africa thought.
Israel needs US support to survive. US is starting to have bigger problems at home.

Not even the same thing!! As Common Courtesy stated -- All the United states is doing is keeping Israel from going into survival mode and ass whooping the whole bunch!!

You don`t have to occupy to give an ass whoopin~~

 

[Lemon law]

Not even the same thing!! As Common Courtesy stated -- All the United states is doing is keeping Israel from going into survival mode and ass whooping the whole bunch!!

You don`t have to occupy to give an ass whoopin~~

===============================================================
Which misses the point, Israel occupies and gives an ass whipping. As for terrorists who are maybe at best 2% of Palestinians, the lowest form of humanity in the world, hands down, have to be Israeli settler parties that are now the driving force in Israel.

Given my choice between a terrorist and an Israeli settler party member, I would at least expect less human piggishness to be found in a terrorists than in Israeli settler party member.

But if pro Israeli fan clubbers want to side with Israeli settler parties, and hold them out as the shining examples of Israeli civilization, well, face the facts, pro Israeli fan clubbers stand four square for Pigs. Does being Pigs do anything to endorse Israel as a shining example of human civilization?

As for me, I would take 10 million Abbas's and five million Nelson Mendellas, and even three million Hamas members over a single Israeli settler party member like Bozo Netanyuhu.

Let the world not accept any Israeli bullshit, they can go with GOD or go with devil led by Israeli settler parties, the TRUE FACE OF ISRAEL.

 

[Lemon law]

Then lets consider what is damn wrong wrong wrong with US policy but its the thread premise.

Why the hell is the USA running around giving advanced military technology to anyone?

Has that stupidity done anything to advance US interests or world peace, not only in the mid-east, but anywhere else in the world? As for me, I think not.

As it is we give billions more per capita to Israel, its advances the Israeli economy, while Israel does everything possible to depress and embargo whatever little economy the Palestinian have? Has it bought the USA any mid-east peace or stability yet? At best its bought Israeli temporarily safety they abuse, but still dooms Israel long term.