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Younigue said:
I think "safer" is a given.

I think the methods do matter. I think in this fight for equality women should hold each other accountable and men should hold each other accountable. Not because I want a division but because by its very nature this fight is divisive.
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See, and this is what I think is reasonable. Holding people accountable for crossing boundaries. Man or Woman, you cannot cross that line without the other's consent.

So, we agree on the rape is bad thing, but Jack seems perfectly fine assuming guilt which is troubling. Its not just that men are shitty, people are shitty and women are part of people. So, because we know that to be true, why would we want to pick any side to trust? I think we both agree that is silly, yet Jack does not seem to understand that.
 
realibrad said:
See, and this is what I think is reasonable. Holding people accountable for crossing boundaries. Man or Woman, you cannot cross that line without the other's consent.

So, we agree on the rape is bad thing, but Jack seems perfectly fine assuming guilt which is troubling. Its not just that men are shitty, people are shitty and women are part of people. So, because we know that to be true, why would we want to pick any side to trust? I think we both agree that is silly, yet Jack does not seem to understand that.
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He does understand it. He has openly said he'd rather err on the side of protecting women from what is an overwhelming problem in our society. That's somewhat refreshing in that men are the ones that need to make the biggest change and they have to want to.

I'm not mad at jackstar, in fact I hope he doesn't change. It's men like him that'll be a significant part of making other men see the stupidity and inhumanity of mistreating and controlling women.
 
Younigue said:
We've talked about this before brad, you do come off as condescending at times but I don't consider it gender specific so we good. I call you out on it on the regular.
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Hey look, if I say something stupid let me know. But, the idea that false accusations are only linked to actual rape is stupid. People lie about being raped for many reasons that have nothing to do with actually being or feeling raped.
 
Younigue said:
He does understand it. He has openly said he'd rather err on the side of protecting women from what is an overwhelming problem in our society. That's somewhat refreshing in that men are the ones that need to make the biggest change and they have to want to.

I'm not mad at jackstar, in fact I hope he doesn't change. It's men like him that'll be a significant part of making other men see the stupidity and inhumanity of mistreating and controlling women.
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Rape is an overwhelming problem for women but not men? You may want to revisit that assumption. The current data shows about an even split.

Being a Man is not the problem here.
 
realibrad said:
Hey look, if I say something stupid let me know. But, the idea that false accusations are only linked to actual rape is stupid. People lie about being raped for many reasons that have nothing to do with actually being or feeling raped.
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All the time? Come on brad, it's not that prevalent. Most women wouldn't want to claim rape without some sort of tape occurring. See, that's a thing most men can't (but most women do) imagine for themselves... Being raped (in any way). We live with the knowledge of it being a very real possibility of happening to us our entire lives. Most women are well aware that a false allegations hurts themselves if not all women.
 
realibrad said:
Rape is an overwhelming problem for women but not men? You may want to revisit that assumption. The current data shows about an even split.

Being a Man is not the problem here.
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Hmm... Are you including male children in your stats? Because that's not a defensible position to take brad. Adult men are most definitely not being raped to the same level adult women are being raped,

The raping of children is a whole other topic and reprehensible in an entirely different way. We've discussed this, I think pedophiles and child rapists should all just go ahead and be dead because they are not capable of being rehabilitated.

Stay on topic brad or stop.
 
realibrad said:
Rape is an overwhelming problem for women but not men? You may want to revisit that assumption. The current data shows about an even split.

Being a Man is not the problem here.
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And in this? Being a certain kind of man is absolutely the problem. It's what needs fixing and evolving!
 
Younigue said:
All the time? Come on brad, it's not that prevalent. Most women wouldn't want to claim rape without some sort of tape occurring. See, that's a thing most men can't (but most women do) imagine for themselves... Being raped (in any way). We live with the knowledge of it being a very real possibility of happening to us our entire lives. Most women are well aware that a false allegations hurts themselves if not all women.
Click to expand...

We live with knowledge of false data. Men could only be raped as of 2012 by a woman. Current data shows that once you expand the definition that Men and Women appear to get raped in equal or nearly equal numbers. Why is it that women should fear men, and that this is a problem for men to fix?

To your point though...

between 4,400 and 5,100 allegations of rape every year were deemed false or baseless after investigation, out of 87,000 to 90,000 total, corresponding to an average of 5.55. That was at least five times higher than for most other offence types.
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That is not close to being equal by any means, and I'm not trying to pretend it is. But, 4-5 thousand false accusations is a big deal. The fact that its so much higher than other false accusations shows its different.
 
realibrad said:
We live with knowledge of false data. Men could only be raped as of 2012 by a woman. Current data shows that once you expand the definition that Men and Women appear to get raped in equal or nearly equal numbers. Why is it that women should fear men, and that this is a problem for men to fix?

To your point though...



That is not close to being equal by any means, and I'm not trying to pretend it is. But, 4-5 thousand false accusations is a big deal. The fact that its so much higher than other false accusations shows its different.
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Well brad if you want to live in a world where you believe false accusations are winning the day, that's your right.

I disagree.
 
Younigue said:
Hmm... Are you including male children in your stats? Because that's not a defensible position to take brad. Adult men are most definitely not being raped to the same level adult women are being raped,

The raping of children is a whole other topic and reprehensible in an entirely different way. We've discussed this, I think pedophiles and child rapists should all just go ahead and be dead because they are not capable of being rehabilitated.

Stay on topic brad or stop.
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Yes I was, but not sure why I would not.

Even if you look at adults, its still not a problem that is a female problem.
 
Younigue said:
And in this? Being a certain kind of man is absolutely the problem. It's what needs fixing and evolving!
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No, its not a certain type of man. Unless you somehow think rape is part of being male which is silly.

Rape is not an issue of not being taught. Rape is an issue of someone not caring about boundaries. Just as you cant educate people not to murder, you can't educate people not to rape in most cases.
 
Younigue said:
Well brad if you want to live in a world where you believe false accusations are winning the day, that's your right.

I disagree.
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Who said false accusations were winning the day? One of the big reasons people report false rape is to hurt the other person. How would a net reduction in rape reduce that?
 
Younigue said:
I'll give you a nod on that but I won't and can't support lives being ruined by false or misleading allegations.
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I'm not FOR false accusations ruining people. I am accepting that it might happen. I can't have a zero tolerance policy for it unless we're also going to have a zero tolerance policy for rape, child sexual assault, etc. etc. etc. all of which society also seems to have a tolerance for.
 
realibrad said:
No, its not a certain type of man. Unless you somehow think rape is part of being male which is silly.

Rape is not an issue of not being taught. Rape is an issue of someone not caring about boundaries. Just as you cant educate people not to murder, you can't educate people not to rape in most cases.
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Hmm. So you think empathy is not a learned trait of humans, but something we're born with?

Just kidding. I know you didn't say that and it was too far-fetched of an extrapolation from what you said, right?
 
jackstar7 said:
Hmm. So you think empathy is not a learned trait of humans, but something we're born with?

Just kidding. I know you didn't say that and it was too far-fetched of an extrapolation from what you said, right?
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People are born with the capacity at different levels. It appears that empathy is dyadic, so to your question, you got it wrong. The way you framed it does not allow for a yes or no correct answer.

Maybe you should read up on the subject.
 
jackstar7 said:
I'm not FOR false accusations ruining people. I am accepting that it might happen. I can't have a zero tolerance policy for it unless we're also going to have a zero tolerance policy for rape, child sexual assault, etc. etc. etc. all of which society also seems to have a tolerance for.
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If you are not for false accusations, then what was your goal originally in this thread?

I don't think he's been falsely accused. And if you do... why?

Oh fucking brother. This isn't court. Do you wait for courts before making any decisions? Do you choose between televisions only after it has been adjudicated in courts which is the best?
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How do you know its not false? Is her accusation better than a man's?
 
realibrad said:
No, its not a certain type of man. Unless you somehow think rape is part of being male which is silly.

Rape is not an issue of not being taught. Rape is an issue of someone not caring about boundaries. Just as you cant educate people not to murder, you can't educate people not to rape in most cases.
Click to expand...
Well disagreeing with brad we meet again.

You can't and should not include children in your stats because children are the responsibility of and reliant on the adults in a society.

Grown ups are supposed to be independent and capable. If the physically strong gender does not reign in their strength while overrun with insecurity and mental weakness then it is easier for them to overpower women.

If you want me to consider psychological "rape" well, that's a separate topic from what were presently discussing as well. But yes, I think women have that going on equally to men. My twin brother has never chosen a woman to be in his adult life who doesn't take advantage of him and who he hasn't handed near complete control of his life over to (he has never once felt abused btw even though he clearly has been).

Look brad. This movement is necessary and through this discussion with you, I'm discovering I'm leaning more toward Jackstar's opinion on things.

I won't consider the "abuses" endured by men within the context of this conversation though I think it's just as horrendous formen to be raped, controlled, made to feel unsafe, helpless or powerless. I do not see it as being something as prevalent as how women are treated in this society. But it also must stop.

And no, I do not think false allegations are a rampant problem.
 
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realibrad said:
People are born with the capacity at different levels. It appears that empathy is dyadic, so to your question, you got it wrong. The way you framed it does not allow for a yes or no correct answer.

Maybe you should read up on the subject.
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Oh Quibbler.

Today's episode: "True or False"
 
jackstar7 said:
Is it your presumption that the rates of false reports would stay the same or increase?

http://theconversation.com/heres-the-truth-about-false-accusations-of-sexual-violence-88049
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Well, the net number might go slightly down, but yeah, I suppose relative to actual rape false rates would go up.

What is the point of that question. You could have false go down but at a lower amount than actual and the rate would go up.

You said that if you reduce actual rape, that false claims would all but disappear. That is wrong given what we know as motivations.
 
Younigue said:
Well disagreeing with brad we meet again.

You can't and should not include children in your stats because children are the responsibility of and reliant on the adults in a society.

Grown ups are supposed to be independent and capable. If the physically strong gender does not reign in their strength while overrun with insecurity and mental weakness then it is easier for them to overpower women.

If you want me to consider psychological "rape" well, that's a separate topic from what were presently discussing as well. But yes, I think women have that going on equally to men. My twin brother has never chosen a woman to be in his adult life who doesn't take advantage of him and who he hasn't handed near complete control of his life over to (he has never once felt abused btw even though he clearly has been).

Look brad. This movement is necessary and through this discussion with you, I'm discovering I'm leaning more toward Jackstar's opinion on things.

I won't consider the "abuses" endured by men within the context of this conversation though I think it's just as horrendous formen to be raped, controlled, made to feel unsafe, helpless or powerless. I do not see it as being something as prevalent as how women are treated in this society. But it also must stop.

And no, I do not think false aggregations are a rampant problem.
Click to expand...

You are throwing a lot of things in this, so if I miss something that you wanted me to respond to, point it out.

You can and should include some ages. A 17yo girl is very different than a 7yo girl. The motivations for rape overlap and yet there are also important differences. Rapists do not rape all ages, all groups. The ages I was looking at was high school and above.

It is true that men are generally stronger than women, but, that type of overpowering rape is not the norm. That is part of the rape numbers, but not the majority. The data just does not support your position there.

The movement to stop creeps from taking advantage of people is good. I support that.

As for how men feel vs women, again, the data is not on your side. Men are more often victims of spousal abuse. There is plenty to work on in terms of getting men to come forward, but that is different enough to not go too deep into it here.

As for false accusations being a rampant problem, we agree. 4-5k a year, while being a large number, is not a rampant problem. But, my point was that reducing total rapes would not have a huge effect on false accusations given the motives behind people's actions.
 
realibrad said:
No, its not a certain type of man. Unless you somehow think rape is part of being male which is silly.

Rape is not an issue of not being taught. Rape is an issue of someone not caring about boundaries. Just as you cant educate people not to murder, you can't educate people not to rape in most cases.
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Also, it is a certain type of men being raised and conditioned within a society that encourages entitlement to get what they want no matter what. Yes, I think the whole damn country has entitlement issues but when it's at the expense of others sense of security and mental health it's a bigger problem. Men actually are the biggest proponents in persistently in holding back or down not only women but minorities and people who don't look or think like them. They are the most consistent in dehumanizing their fellow humans.
 
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