Hardwick is added to the list.

[jackstar7]

I already told you. You don't like my answer
<--- I even warned you that you wouldn't.

I'm not trying to change your mind jackstar. If you support her that's what you feel you must do.

I'm pleased about the metoo movement but I won't be misled by it either. I have made the choice to take each [public] incident as they come and call on my feels about them.

I also hate that Al Franken was forced to resign. I don't believe he victimized anyone. Aziz Ansari was also mistreated by metoo.

Al Franken made his choice. Aziz seems likely to return. Both of those incidents prompted good discussion.

Hardwick has also prompted discussion, but I look to those who worked for/with him. Their responses were telling.

 

[sactoking]

Aren't the reports that she refused to participate in the AMC investigation not also telling? Given the chance to add detail to her allegations she now just wants to put it behind her? Then why allege it in the first place?

 

[Younigue]

Al Franken made his choice. Aziz seems likely to return. Both of those incidents prompted good discussion.

Hardwick has also prompted discussion, but I look to those who worked for/with him. Their responses were telling.

There are few people on the planet that if people they know are asked about them wouldn't have at least a few people eager to say shit about them.

 

[jackstar7]

Aren't the reports that she refused to participate in the AMC investigation not also telling? Given the chance to add detail to her allegations she now just wants to put it behind her? Then why allege it in the first place?

I'm not sure if it's telling or not, honestly.

The dynamics of an abusive relationship leave a lot of room for interpretation of basically everything on all sides and to fit any agenda.

I admit my bias and I continue to prefer to err on the side someone coming forward. Society has taken the opposite stance for basically all of human history and we've seen how that has worked out.

 

[Younigue]

I'm not sure if it's telling or not, honestly.

The dynamics of an abusive relationship leave a lot of room for interpretation of basically everything on all sides and to fit any agenda.

I admit my bias and I continue to prefer to err on the side someone coming forward. Society has taken the opposite stance for basically all of human history and we've seen how that has worked out.

And I fear that if this metoo movement isn't careful no woman will ever be believed. I also fear that "victim" is becoming too fluid a concept. A bad relationship can be abusive in many different ways but that does not always mean one was more of a victim than the other. Sometimes toxic relationships are just mutually toxic.

 

[jackstar7]

And I fear that if this metoo movement isn't careful no woman will ever be believed. I also fear that "victim" is becoming too fluid a concept. A bad relationship can be abusive in many different ways but that does not always mean one was more of a victim than the other. Sometimes toxic relationships are just mutually toxic.

But again, prior to this movement no woman was believed. There're bible passages where if a guy just gets insanely jealous he could take her to a local religious figurehead to have her poison herself to prove her innocence. And look at the "outercourse" bullshit happening with that rapist asshole. The deck is still very stacked against women. Also look at all unprocessed rape kits. And look at, and look at, and look at...

You can be concerned that the pendulum will swing too far, but consider how little it has moved and all the resistance the movement already faces.

I will join you in concern about people crying wolf after we've seen a substantive decrease in the number of goddamn wolves, you know?

 

[Younigue]

But again, prior to this movement no woman was believed. There're bible passages where if a guy just gets insanely jealous he could take her to a local religious figurehead to have her poison herself to prove her innocence. And look at the "outercourse" bullshit happening with that rapist asshole. The deck is still very stacked against women. Also look at all unprocessed rape kits. And look at, and look at, and look at...

You can be concerned that the pendulum will swing too far, but consider how little it has moved and all the resistance the movement already faces.

I will join you in concern about people crying wolf after we've seen a substantive decrease in the number of goddamn wolves, you know?

I agree with you to an extent. That's all I've got for ya man.

It wasn't that no women were believed these last 40 years or so. But not enough to push women's rights as quickly as they need to be. I want women to feel safe. I want men to want them to feel safe from them. I want equality. I want men to want it for women but short of that, we'll take it. I want this for all humans.

It doesn't change the fact that the incidents/instances I can read about I will make my own judgements on. Admittedly I'm possibly as a woman in a better position to to do so than you.

I'm sure I haven't made it clear but it is a relief to see that you are willing and open to fight the fight along side women. It helps a great deal.

It is disgusting and deeply scary how women can be treated and what can be deemed acceptable to do to women.

We're on the same side for the most part, just not on this case.

 

[jackstar7]

I agree with you to an extent. That's all I've got for ya man.

It wasn't that no women were believed these last 40 years or so. But not enough to push women's rights as quickly as they need to be. I want women to feel safe. I want men to want them to feel safe from them. I want equality. I want men to want it for women but short of that, we'll take it. I want this for all humans.

It doesn't change the fact that the incidents/instances I can read about I will make my own judgements on. Admittedly I'm possibly as a woman in a better position to to do so than you.

I'm sure I haven't made it clear but it is a relief to see that you are willing and open to fight the fight along side women. It helps a great deal.

It is disgusting and deeply scary how women can be treated and what can be deemed acceptable to do to women.

We're on the same side for the most part, just not on this case.

What me? I'm just virtue signaling and white-knighting! I'm also just a biased... something?

It's gross how many dudes actively refuse to join me on this side of things, not even to my zealous level, but just to be on the right side of history for a change...

My experience is that every woman I've had a relationship with and several I haven't have told me their experiences of abuse and assault. It affected me the first time and every time. And it's exactly because it's not a fear that I have to have that I feel it's important to be on the side of women and extend the benefit of the doubt, because way too many dudes are extended the benefit of the doubt.

Latest example that popped into my feed: https://twitter.com/JordyNaps/status/1023658224476672001

 

[child of wonder]

What me? I'm just virtue signaling and white-knighting! I'm also just a biased... something?

It's gross how many dudes actively refuse to join me on this side of things, not even to my zealous level, but just to be on the right side of history for a change...

My experience is that every woman I've had a relationship with and several I haven't have told me their experiences of abuse and assault. It affected me the first time and every time. And it's exactly because it's not a fear that I have to have that I feel it's important to be on the side of women and extend the benefit of the doubt, because way too many dudes are extended the benefit of the doubt.

Latest example that popped into my feed: https://twitter.com/JordyNaps/status/1023658224476672001

Every time a woman you're in a relationship with told you she had been abused or assaulted in the past, why didn't you immediately go attack the man that did it? Why didn't you call his employer? Why didn't you write a note to his family, friends, and current girlfriend/spouse so they know what he did?

No one supports the harassment, abuse, or assault of women. What people do not support is using allegations to go after people and ruin their lives. This Chris Hardwick issue is a prime example as it's pretty obvious her assertions were exaggerated or false.

And no matter how much you think you're "on the side of the victims" all it takes is a former girlfriend to twist that one time you wanted to have sex with her, she didn't, and you tried to convince her to anyway even though she was tired as "abuse" or "rape" and just like that YOUR character, life, and entire past is scrutinized and attacked by virtue signaling white knights, just like yourself, until you lose your job, friends, and life all because their bias is always to "believe the victims of abuse."

 

[realibrad]

What me? I'm just virtue signaling and white-knighting! I'm also just a biased... something?

It's gross how many dudes actively refuse to join me on this side of things, not even to my zealous level, but just to be on the right side of history for a change...

My experience is that every woman I've had a relationship with and several I haven't have told me their experiences of abuse and assault. It affected me the first time and every time. And it's exactly because it's not a fear that I have to have that I feel it's important to be on the side of women and extend the benefit of the doubt, because way too many dudes are extended the benefit of the doubt.

Latest example that popped into my feed: https://twitter.com/JordyNaps/status/1023658224476672001

Join you on what side?

If your position is that any accusation should trigger an investigation then sure. Your stance seems to be that the accuser should be believed, and lives ruined in public. Why must either side be assumed to be telling the truth? Why not investigate before ruining lives?

 

[Younigue]

What me? I'm just virtue signaling and white-knighting! I'm also just a biased... something?

It's gross how many dudes actively refuse to join me on this side of things, not even to my zealous level, but just to be on the right side of history for a change...

My experience is that every woman I've had a relationship with and several I haven't have told me their experiences of abuse and assault. It affected me the first time and every time. And it's exactly because it's not a fear that I have to have that I feel it's important to be on the side of women and extend the benefit of the doubt, because way too many dudes are extended the benefit of the doubt.

Latest example that popped into my feed: https://twitter.com/JordyNaps/status/1023658224476672001

I never called you biased. I absolutely believe you're on the right side of history. And I appreciate it.

I think far too often males are conditioned to first believe women are being dramatic and emotional, then on top of that they are conditioned to support other men and protect their own egos. The combination is dangerous and damaging to all not just women.

 

[Younigue]

Every time a woman you're in a relationship with told you she had been abused or assaulted in the past, why didn't you immediately go attack the man that did it? Why didn't you call his employer? Why didn't you write a note to his family, friends, and current girlfriend/spouse so they know what he did?

No one supports the harassment, abuse, or assault of women. What people do not support is using allegations to go after people and ruin their lives. This Chris Hardwick issue is a prime example as it's pretty obvious her assertions were exaggerated or false.

And no matter how much you think you're "on the side of the victims" all it takes is a former girlfriend to twist that one time you wanted to have sex with her, she didn't, and you tried to convince her to anyway even though she was tired as "abuse" or "rape" and just like that YOUR character, life, and entire past is scrutinized and attacked by virtue signaling white knights, just like yourself, until you lose your job, friends, and life all because their bias is always to "believe the victims of abuse."

Whoa! But the alternative is to live in fear of the occasional liar? Change nothing because there might be a liar among the millions and millions?

You know society. You know men. The problem is real and it's bad.

Women have to travel in groups. They have to have their keys knuckled between their fingers when they walk from one place to another at night. They can't ever leave their drinks unattended. We have to fear being alone with a man we don't know. And that's before we even get in to intimate relationships with (too many) men who allow some definition of masculinity to determine for them how to behave in the relationship or are heavily invested in frictionfiction to decide their worth in a relationship then lash out in very controlling ways if they aren't coddled enough or in the right way.

Women are strong and we can do most anything but were often in relationships with men who are physically stronger than us. That's only intimidating if the man chooses to make it so.

Ok, I don't even know where I was going with this except to say most women aren't willing to make an accusation like this if it's not true and that matters a hell of a lot more than the occasional liar. It's how society is supposed to work that the many are safe regardless of the few fu*king things up. Again, you know society women don't feel safe in it far too often and for far too many reasons.

In this case I don't think this girl is lying. I believe their relationship was mutually acceptable and mutually toxic to both of them until it wasn't at which point the relationship ended. I don't think she's lying, I think she's not being completely honest with herself.

 

[jackstar7]

Every time a woman you're in a relationship with told you she had been abused or assaulted in the past, why didn't you immediately go attack the man that did it? Why didn't you call his employer? Why didn't you write a note to his family, friends, and current girlfriend/spouse so they know what he did?

No one supports the harassment, abuse, or assault of women. What people do not support is using allegations to go after people and ruin their lives. This Chris Hardwick issue is a prime example as it's pretty obvious her assertions were exaggerated or false.

And no matter how much you think you're "on the side of the victims" all it takes is a former girlfriend to twist that one time you wanted to have sex with her, she didn't, and you tried to convince her to anyway even though she was tired as "abuse" or "rape" and just like that YOUR character, life, and entire past is scrutinized and attacked by virtue signaling white knights, just like yourself, until you lose your job, friends, and life all because their bias is always to "believe the victims of abuse."

Join you on what side?

If your position is that any accusation should trigger an investigation then sure. Your stance seems to be that the accuser should be believed, and lives ruined in public. Why must either side be assumed to be telling the truth? Why not investigate before ruining lives?

I can't do better than these two back to back.

Why didn't I go attack people? Because I wasn't asked to. I'm not a vigilante.

Also, I did nothing to hurt Hardwick's career. That's up to the people who employ him. They make those choices. Do I think it matters if they choose to distance himself or anyone who comes under this kind of allegation? Not much. In fact, I'm okay with it because it could spur a culture change where wolves realize they are not welcome in business and society in general and they need to fucking act like men instead.

All the nightmare scenarios you guys are worried about are paranoid and wildly overblown ESPECIALLY when taken in context with those situations where assaulters and abusers go unpunished by a system that claims a label of justice.

 

[realibrad]

I never called you biased. I absolutely believe you're on the right side of history. And I appreciate it.

I think far too often males are conditioned to first believe women are being dramatic and emotional, then on top of that they are conditioned to support other men and protect their own egos. The combination is dangerous and damaging to all not just women.

Well, sense Jack took the low road...

What is the side that he is on? He seems to want society to not ignore women, which is good, but then also seems to want to believe everything until someone can prove otherwise. The 2nd part is the problem.

 

[jackstar7]

Well, sense Jack took the low road...

What is the side that he is on? He seems to want society to not ignore women, which is good, but then also seems to want to believe everything until someone can prove otherwise. The 2nd part is the problem.

Oh Quibbler.

You're powers are failing! You're not actually responding to what I'm saying!

 

[realibrad]

Oh Quibbler.

You're powers are failing! You're not actually responding to what I'm saying!

I'm the one who asked you a question that you did not answer. She says you are on the same side, so I tried to figure out that side by asking her. Enjoy your day.

 

[Younigue]

Well, sense Jack took the low road...

What is the side that he is on? He seems to want society to not ignore women, which is good, but then also seems to want to believe everything until someone can prove otherwise. The 2nd part is the problem.

He's on the side of necessary change. The side where women get to feel safe because society has thoroughly cleansed itself of men who hurt women because they can and often times think it's acceptable because women are lower than them.

The world he wants is exactly what I want.

*edit:
He's more intense than me because he's a male and in full acceptance of what his gender can far too often be guilty of. The world wouldn't suffer if there were a lot more like him. If men stop accepting the behavior from there own gender... It stops and instead of 4 in every 5 women with a hopelessly powerless experiences with a male/males (because they sometimes gang up, it's happened to me and it's scary a fu*k!) it'll be one in a million with a horrifying experience.

*another edit: the men who surrounded me, 4 of them while one watched outside the circle they made around me, decided I should be taught a lesson about flirting and what that should get me.

*and another edit: I was at a bar once with my back to a man (I chose the seat beside him because my friends didn't want to sit beside a stranger). He leaned over and in a conversational tone told me to get away from him or he was going to rape me.

There is an element in our society where too many men feel it's ok to intimidate women with abuse. That's aside from actually abusing women.

 

[realibrad]

He's on the side of necessary change. The side where women get to feel safe because society has thoroughly cleansed itself of men who hurt women because they can and often times think it's acceptable because women are lower than them.

The world he wants is exactly what I want.

I'm going to assume you mean safer and go from there as I'm pretty sure you don't mean safe in an absolute way. If this is wrong though, let me know.

A world with individual sovereignty is absolutely a worthy goal to have. We should never accept that women are the lesser. So in that we agree. That said, people will not respect others sovereignty and so you will always have issue of things like rape sadly.

The problem I have with his position, is that he seems to not care about the means by which the goal is achieved.

Sexual assault has a way of messing with your mind, so trying to reduce that seems like an obvious good, but some methods are unneeded as there are better methods.

 

[jackstar7]

He's on the side of necessary change. The side where women get to feel safe because society has thoroughly cleansed itself of men who hurt women because they can and often times think it's acceptable because women are lower than them.

The world he wants is exactly what I want.

*edit:
He's more intense than me because he's a male and in full acceptance of what his gender can far too often be guilty of. The world wouldn't suffer if there were a lot more like him. If men stop accepting the behavior from there own gender... It stops and instead of 4 in every 5 women with a hopelessly powerless experiences with a male/males (because they sometimes gang up, it's happened to me and it's scary a fu*k!) it'll be one in a million with a horrifying experience.

*another edit: the men who surrounded me, 4 of them while one watched outside the circle they made around me, decided I should be taught a lesson about flirting and what that should get me.

And side benefit, false accusations would all but disappear if the actual instances were substantially decreased.

 

[jackstar7]

Oh Quibbler, you're the quibbliest.

You know if you go to the trouble to say, 'I assume you mean this and not this...' you're just a damn conversational speedbump. Make the assumption (without putting a spotlight on it) that treats the other party like a non-moron for fucks sake. Then people might do the same for you!

 

[realibrad]

And side benefit, false accusations would all but disappear if the actual instances were substantially decreased.

That is amazingly stupid.

 

[realibrad]

Oh Quibbler, you're the quibbliest.

You know if you go to the trouble to say, 'I assume you mean this and not this..." you're just a damn conversational speedbump. Make the assumption (without putting a spotlight on it) that treats the other party like a non-moron for fucks sake. Then people might do the same for you!

Its not treating her like a moron, its making sure I don't assume her position. Smart people have said things like "gender is 100% a social construct" which is flat out wrong. I would rather note my assumption and then go from there. Its very little time on my part that can save much more time in the long run.

 

[jackstar7]

That is amazingly stupid.

Oh? You ARE scared. That's fun.

 

[Younigue]

I'm going to assume you mean safer and go from there as I'm pretty sure you don't mean safe in an absolute way. If this is wrong though, let me know.

A world with individual sovereignty is absolutely a worthy goal to have. We should never accept that women are the lesser. So in that we agree. That said, people will not respect others sovereignty and so you will always have issue of things like rape sadly.

The problem I have with his position, is that he seems to not care about the means by which the goal is achieved.

Sexual assault has a way of messing with your mind, so trying to reduce that seems like an obvious good, but some methods are unneeded as there are better methods.

I think "safer" is a given.

I think the methods do matter. I think in this fight for equality women should hold each other accountable and men should hold each other accountable. Not because I want a division but because by its very nature this fight is divisive.

 

[Younigue]

And side benefit, false accusations would all but disappear if the actual instances were substantially decreased.

I'll give you a nod on that but I won't and can't support lives being ruined by false or misleading allegations.