Hardwick is added to the list.

[realibrad]

Seems to me he was being flippant. He doesn't truly want innocent people to suffer.

Ah, now see? It's that he did not really mean what he said. And yet you have multiple posts where he is defending that this guy is guilty. Someone says that her accusation is not enough, and he responds with "What would it take?"

And this.

"The concern about false accusations starts from a place of an implied denial of all accusers."

Being worried about the accusation being false come from denying the accuser. Have to believe her or else you are against her.

Person says innocent until proven guilty, he responds with "what will he do with his millions?".

Someone says they want to wait until it goes to court and all the facts come out, and his response is to say "Oh fucking brother. This isn't court. Do you wait for courts before making any decisions? Do you choose between televisions only after it has been adjudicated in courts which is the best?".

He clearly said his bias is to believe the alleged victim. Why must we accept either side as telling the truth?

 

[Bird222]

This is BS. There is a reason we have 'innocent until proven guilty' (I know this is not court but still). Further it is practically impossible to prove a negative for the accused. Here's the deal, believe the accuser enough to start an investigation. Don't release any names or hand out any punishment until the investigation is done. If the accuser is found to be lying, punish him/her with the same that the accused would have gotten. That's as good as it's gonna get.

 

[jackstar7]

That is a false premise in my opinion. I think all 3 of us agree that historically society has been shitty to assault victims. As I said, he wants to simply reverse the equation while I advocate for a way where both sides get a fair assessment.

Take this to reality: how do you ensure fairness for all sides?

How do you control corporate and public reactions? Or do you just want them very much to be fair?

Because those windmills you are tilting at... good luck with that.

 

[jackstar7]

This is BS. There is a reason we have 'innocent until proven guilty' (I know this is not court but still). Further it is practically impossible to prove a negative for the accused. Here's the deal, believe the accuser enough to start an investigation. Don't release any names or hand out any punishment until the investigation is done. If the accuser is found to be lying, punish him/her with the same that the accused would have gotten. That's as good as it's gonna get.

That's not how any of this works.

 

[jackstar7]

I mean take a step back and think about how this plays out.

Finally victims are starting to feel empowered to share their stories and possibly see consequences for their abusers.

Rather than accept the imperfections of how this is going to play out and live on the side of victims (and accept the few bad actors), you guys want to make sure no one is falsely accused. How do you do that? You even stated that reducing real abuse won't affect false allegations!

That some men MIGHT face unfair consequences in all this is a small price to pay for a chance to create a society that doesn't shame victims and foster a society that never wants to hear their stories.

 

[realibrad]

Take this to reality: how do you ensure fairness for all sides?

We already had this, and its called "innocent until proven guilty". You don't presume guilt, but you do investigate. If someone comes with a claim, you corroborate, find evidence, and then go from there. A claim cannot and should not be enough in law or in public.

How do you control corporate and public reactions?

You don't control the public. You as an individual express your ideas, talk with others, and try to build a logical framework that others pickup. Its the same thing you do when have any other social issue.

Or do you just want them very much to be fair?

I do very much want things to be fair and just. I think there are things we can do to help facilitate that.

Because those windmills you are tilting at... good luck with that.

They are not fake issues. You are advocating the assumption of guilt and social scorn because of an accusation alone. That is a horrible way of organizing society.

 

[realibrad]

That some men MIGHT face unfair consequences in all this is a small price to pay for a chance to create a society that doesn't shame victims and foster a society that never wants to hear their stories.

This, this right fucking here. This is the issue. This is why I am saying you are trying to turn the tables instead of finding fair solutions. You want to shift the burden from alleged victims of assault, to alleged perpetrator of assault. You seem completely baffled that we could investigate the claim of the alleged victim to try and prove rape.

Is it that you think that sometimes we cant find evidence, so its better to assume guilt in that case? I just realized this might be your stance.

 

[jackstar7]

This, this right fucking here. This is the issue. This is why I am saying you are trying to turn the tables instead of finding fair solutions. You want to shift the burden from alleged victims of assault, to alleged perpetrator of assault. You seem completely baffled that we could investigate the claim of the alleged victim to try and prove rape.

Is it that you think that sometimes we cant find evidence, so its better to assume guilt in that case? I just realized this might be your stance.

No, here's where you're confused. The public isn't going to be fair in the way you want. It's not going to happen.

The reality of the court of public opinion doesn't care about your want for fairness.

So faced with the reality that corporations and the public are going to react to allegations (Hardwick being a fine example), I accept that it's possible that some people MIGHT be falsely accused. It's reality.

You can stomp your feet about it all you want. I am okay with it. It IS a worthwhile shift in the culture. You want some magic equilibrium, and I'm living in a world where there is no magic. There is, however, a way to treat the affected parties. I will support those telling their stories publicly. The bad actors will be found out, and any collateral damage is the price that society must pay for its generations of institutional protection of abusers.

Shifting from a society that dismisses accusations, to one that listens to them is a good and valuable change. And is likely the only path to arrive at the mythical "fairness" that you desire. You can't shortcut to it though. The bill has come due.

 

[Bird222]

That's not how any of this works.

But it should for everybody's sake.

 

[Bird222]

I mean take a step back and think about how this plays out.

Finally victims are starting to feel empowered to share their stories and possibly see consequences for their abusers.

Rather than accept the imperfections of how this is going to play out and live on the side of victims (and accept the few bad actors), you guys want to make sure no one is falsely accused. How do you do that? You even stated that reducing real abuse won't affect false allegations!

That some men MIGHT face unfair consequences in all this is a small price to pay for a chance to create a society that doesn't shame victims and foster a society that never wants to hear their stories.

You are talking about acceptable losses, but do you feel the same way about gun laws?

 

[realibrad]

No, here's where you're confused. The public isn't going to be fair in the way you want. It's not going to happen.

The reality of the court of public opinion doesn't care about your want for fairness.

So faced with the reality that corporations and the public are going to react to allegations (Hardwick being a fine example), I accept that it's possible that some people MIGHT be falsely accused. It's reality.

You can stomp your feet about it all you want. I am okay with it. It IS a worthwhile shift in the culture. You want some magic equilibrium, and I'm living in a world where there is no magic. There is, however, a way to treat the affected parties. I will support those telling their stories publicly. The bad actors will be found out, and any collateral damage is the price that society must pay for its generations of institutional protection of abusers.

Shifting from a society that dismisses accusations, to one that listens to them is a good and valuable change. And is likely the only path to arrive at the mythical "fairness" that you desire. You can't shortcut to it though. The bill has come due.

How can you be so unaware that you are advocating and watching a shift in culture, and then say that a change in culture is never going to happen? That is amazing.

 

[Aikouka]

This is BS. There is a reason we have 'innocent until proven guilty' (I know this is not court but still). Further it is practically impossible to prove a negative for the accused. Here's the deal, believe the accuser enough to start an investigation. Don't release any names or hand out any punishment until the investigation is done. If the accuser is found to be lying, punish him/her with the same that the accused would have gotten. That's as good as it's gonna get.

Keep in mind that Chloe did not mention him by name; however, given her more public relationships, it was pretty easy to guess who it was. Another important distinction is that she never claimed that she was raped or forced to do something from a position of power. Now, you could probably argue that she did do the latter as she discussed how he would expect intercourse and didn't seem to care whether she wanted to or not. Albeit, I don't recall her ever mentioning that she said "no" to his advances.

I think the lack of a denial of advance is a crucial part of this whole discussion. Essentially, I don't see this aim of this blog post as trying to take down Chris Hardwick, but rather to discuss her own deficiencies. By detailing her own negative experiences, it provides a chance to attempt to correct course. I'm pretty sure she realizes that she shouldn't have been complicit in acts that she didn't really want to do, but I think she also realizes that she was clinging to her relationship too much. You can see a bit of that in how she stated that she left him when someone else came along. She needed that other person.

Throughout my time in online dating, I've met women that sort of remind me of Chloe... or at least of a similar mental state. These women tend to cling to whatever sort of relationship that they have because, in their mind, there's nothing else. In their eyes, nothing else in their life is good -- they're miserable. I often have to distance myself from these people, because they don't need me to serve as a placebo... they need professional help.

That's why I wonder if her blog post is sort of her start in trying to get some help or maybe it's part of her treatment in trying to correct her emotional state.

 

[Younigue]

By telling anyone they are wrong you are being condescending. When you hold a position that the other does not hold, and think they are wrong, you are casting judgement.

Oh brad, I know you've been told that your approach is condescending. It's because you believe you're right and they're wrong that it is condescending. You don't know that you are any more right than the other person, you feel you are. You often do not give room for anyone to have a separate view from yours that is also right. Jackstar isn't wrong just maybe a bit overzealous.

So, why are you belaboring this? You've expressed yourself thoroughly and you haven't changed any minds. Let that be enough.

 

[Younigue]

Ah, now see? It's that he did not really mean what he said. And yet you have multiple posts where he is defending that this guy is guilty. Someone says that her accusation is not enough, and he responds with "What would it take?"

And this.

"The concern about false accusations starts from a place of an implied denial of all accusers."

Being worried about the accusation being false come from denying the accuser. Have to believe her or else you are against her.

Person says innocent until proven guilty, he responds with "what will he do with his millions?".

Someone says they want to wait until it goes to court and all the facts come out, and his response is to say "Oh fucking brother. This isn't court. Do you wait for courts before making any decisions? Do you choose between televisions only after it has been adjudicated in courts which is the best?".

He clearly said his bias is to believe the alleged victim. Why must we accept either side as telling the truth?

Nope. I'm not doing this with you any more. Just stop.

 

[realibrad]

Oh brad, I know you've been told that your approach is condescending. It's because you believe you're right and they're wrong that it is condescending. You don't know that you are any more right than the other person, you feel you are. You often do not give room for anyone to have a separate view from yours that is also right. Jackstar isn't wrong just maybe a bit overzealous.

So, why are you belaboring this? You've expressed yourself thoroughly and you haven't changed any minds. Let that be enough.

I belabor (nice choice btw) because that is how I grow and learn. If I can take a stance and put it out there, then people can chip away at it. I learn where my opinions are weak and get to examine why. I either shift my position, or, build a better argument.

In my opinion, what I am doing is showing more respect than not engaging him. I'm literally taking my time to try and counter his position with mine to see what happens. I would imagine deep down he feels the same way.

That said, if you think he is being overzealous, then you also are criticizing his actions and or position. You think it could improve. I'm not saying he is wrong for having sympathy for victims. I'm saying that the way he goes about trying to help them is less optimal than other things.

 

[Younigue]

Keep in mind that Chloe did not mention him by name; however, given her more public relationships, it was pretty easy to guess who it was. Another important distinction is that she never claimed that she was raped or forced to do something from a position of power. Now, you could probably argue that she did do the latter as she discussed how he would expect intercourse and didn't seem to care whether she wanted to or not. Albeit, I don't recall her ever mentioning that she said "no" to his advances.

I think the lack of a denial of advance is a crucial part of this whole discussion. Essentially, I don't see this aim of this blog post as trying to take down Chris Hardwick, but rather to discuss her own deficiencies. By detailing her own negative experiences, it provides a chance to attempt to correct course. I'm pretty sure she realizes that she shouldn't have been complicit in acts that she didn't really want to do, but I think she also realizes that she was clinging to her relationship too much. You can see a bit of that in how she stated that she left him when someone else came along. She needed that other person.

Throughout my time in online dating, I've met women that sort of remind me of Chloe... or at least of a similar mental state. These women tend to cling to whatever sort of relationship that they have because, in their mind, there's nothing else. In their eyes, nothing else in their life is good -- they're miserable. I often have to distance myself from these people, because they don't need me to serve as a placebo... they need professional help.

That's why I wonder if her blog post is sort of her start in trying to get some help or maybe it's part of her treatment in trying to correct her emotional state.

Just a note... I'm not sure she's exactly like the women you mention. She cheated on him twice putting that relationship she was "clinging" to in jeopardy.

 

[Younigue]

I belabor (nice choice btw) because that is how I grow and learn. If I can take a stance and put it out there, then people can chip away at it. I learn where my opinions are weak and get to examine why. I either shift my position, or, build a better argument.

In my opinion, what I am doing is showing more respect than not engaging him. I'm literally taking my time to try and counter his position with mine to see what happens. I would imagine deep down he feels the same way.

That said, if you think he is being overzealous, then you also are criticizing his actions and or position. You think it could improve. I'm not saying he is wrong for having sympathy for victims. I'm saying that the way he goes about trying to help them is less optimal than other things.

No brad, I've never seen any evidence your opinions/judgements move in any direction but your own. You dig your feet in. You try relentlessly to be right. That leaves no room to learn OR grow.

I've stated previously that jack is a bit extreme but I've also stated that I get it and it's a relief to have men who want the change as much as women do. It needs to happen. If you're going to dissect my words, do it honestly.

We live in a one issue at a time kind of society.

If you can procure a magic wand that can fix it all with one wave, Get'Er Done! Until then accept that individual people are drawn to individual things because those things resonate with them.

You're not taking on the world brad, you're taking on individuals in a forum and relentlessly asking them to see the world as you do.

I would imagine deep down he feels the same way.

as you? <--- that is condescending.

 

[Younigue]

I belabor (nice choice btw)

Yeah, it's one of my favorite words. That's right, I have favorite words most of them are swear words.

 

[jackstar7]

You are talking about acceptable losses, but do you feel the same way about gun laws?

This is not that. Do you only live by blanket rules?

 

[jackstar7]

How can you be so unaware that you are advocating and watching a shift in culture, and then say that a change in culture is never going to happen? That is amazing.

Different things are different. Context remains a really important part of just about everything.

 

[jackstar7]

I'm saying that the way he goes about trying to help them is less optimal than other things.

Perfection is the enemy of the good.

 

[realibrad]

No brad, I've never seen any evidence your opinions/judgements move in any direction but your own. You dig your feet in. You try relentlessly to be right. That leaves no room to learn OR grow.

I've stated previously that jack is a bit extreme but I've also stated that I get it and it's a relief to have men who want the change as much as women do. It needs to happen. If you're going to dissect my words, do it honestly.

We live in a one issue at a time kind of society.

If you can procure a magic wand that can fix it all with one wave, Get'Er Done! Until then accept that individual people are drawn to individual things because those things resonate with them.

The way this forum works for me, it would be almost impossible to see a shift. We have short bursts of discussions and then leave it. You will never see me discussing things with other people for days after.

How could I also leave no room to be wrong, and, have been wrong and admitted it?

I for sure thought Trump would lose, I got that one very wrong.

I thought that the FED doing quantitative easing would cause inflation, did not happen.

I thought that the Earth's core would cool before the sun expanded and consumed it, got that wrong.

All of those things happened on this Forum and I admitted to all of them.

You're not taking on the world brad, you're taking on individuals in a forum and relentlessly asking them to see the world as you do.

I'm not asking them to see my world. Im challenging them and their positions with my position. I then judge if mine worked better, or if mine failed and why. You only get a small view of my personal life.

as you? <--- that is condescending.

You misunderstand. I think he considers me valuable enough to respond to. Why else would he do it?

 

[realibrad]

Different things are different. Context remains a really important part of just about everything.

And yet, you are trying and or wanting to change culture from hurting women to helping them. Why cant I do the same?

 

[jackstar7]

And yet, you are trying and or wanting to change culture from hurting women to helping them. Why cant I do the same?

Have at it. I'm not the arbiter of your time and energy.

I'm also not doing much in all this. I'm just trying to get out of the way of the people who are, and if I can move anyone else from their path towards greater justice, then I'll give it a shot. But I'm not particularly important in this fight. Are you?

 

[realibrad]

Perfection is the enemy of the good.

And acceptance of imperfection can lead to unneeded harm.