Hardwick is added to the list.

[Younigue]

You are throwing a lot of things in this, so if I miss something that you wanted me to respond to, point it out.

You can and should include some ages. A 17yo girl is very different than a 7yo girl. The motivations for rape overlap and yet there are also important differences. Rapists do not rape all ages, all groups. The ages I was looking at was high school and above.

It is true that men are generally stronger than women, but, that type of overpowering rape is not the norm. That is part of the rape numbers, but not the majority. The data just does not support your position there.

The movement to stop creeps from taking advantage of people is good. I support that.

As for how men feel vs women, again, the data is not on your side. Men are more often victims of spousal abuse. There is plenty to work on in terms of getting men to come forward, but that is different enough to not go too deep into it here.

As for false accusations being a rampant problem, we agree. 4-5k a year, while being a large number, is not a rampant problem. But, my point was that reducing total rapes would not have a huge effect on false accusations given the motives behind people's actions.

Gonna have to pick this up later. I'm starving and there's a pudding cup in my fridge with my name on it. It won't fill me up but it'll tide me over. I don't feel like making lunch.

But brad... You're looking like an asshole in this.

 

[realibrad]

Also, it is a certain type of men being raised and conditioned within a society that encourages entitlement to get what they want no matter what. Yes, I think the whole damn country has entitlement issues but when it's at the expense of others sense of security and mental health it's a bigger problem. Men actually are the biggest proponents in persistently in holding back or down not only women but minorities and people who don't look or think like them. They are the most consistent in dehumanizing their fellow humans.

I dare you to back any of that up with data.

Here is a quote by a psychologist. Does this sound like an education issue?

In many ways sex offenders are all different, but what they have in common is always an unhappy childhood - usually due to abusive, neglectful, absent or simply unengaged parenting.

Reducing rape is a damn good idea, but, your position as to what is causing it does not fit.

 

[realibrad]

Gonna have to pick this up later. I'm starving and there's a pudding cup in my fridge with my name on it. It won't fill me up but it'll tide me over. I don't feel like making lunch.

But brad... You're looking like an asshole in this.

I'm an asshole, but, I'm trying to be as honest as I can here. I have some baggage in this, and its not as the attacker.

There are also better snacks than... pudding. Bleh.

 

[jackstar7]

Oh yes, such a quibble to be accurate about psychology given that your comment is disconnected from data. My bad.

Accurate about psychology with data is an hilarious group of words to bring together.

 

[realibrad]

Accurate about psychology with data is an hilarious group of words to bring together.

You don't think psychology is backed by data?

 

[jackstar7]

You don't think psychology is backed by data?

Oh, definitely. Some of it.

 

[Younigue]

I'm an asshole, but, I'm trying to be as honest as I can here. I have some baggage in this, and its not as the attacker.

There are also better snacks than... pudding. Bleh.

I would agree with you but the other snacks didn't help me put weight on when I desperately needed to. I've developed a bit of a taste for the junk these last 2 years but it's still gross but I reached my goal weight and now I am just maintaining. I'm just sticking with what worked. I never would have fused it would be so difficult to gain 20 pounds.

I'm very sorry for your experience brad. I do not mean to diminish it. As an individual experience it is absolutely equal to that of anyone that has been hurt. It's just as horrific and as worthy of justice.

But with some puddin' and some thought I return to tell you that I won't continue this conversation with you.

The battle you face is no less valid than the battle the majority of women face. It absolutely needs to be addressed. I believe walking men away from their conditioning is a good start. It stands a chance of helping everyone. You can not be against that even if you struggle with how people other than you want to go about it. You often allow yourself to get stuck on how people choose to word themselves brad, people are asking for clarification with your own Weiss add you are of others. You do not have the market cornered in presenting your meaning or intent. You really do need to work on your perpetual confusion. Jackstar is not hurting you even if you are feeling hurt by his words. He's also not truly confusing you. You have something to say and you want to say it so you try to lead the conversation in a way that it'll get you there. Speak plainly, I'm sure Jack would have as much empathy for you as he does for women that are being hurt by commonly/damaging/potentially life changing or ending accepted behavior.

You were abused, it's not ok.

 

[jackstar7]

How many lives have been "ruined" by false accusations, do you reckon?

 

[Younigue]

I'm an asshole, but, I'm trying to be as honest as I can here. I have some baggage in this, and its not as the attacker.

There are also better snacks than... pudding. Bleh.

Nah, I don't have stats. I have my life to draw upon and given that, I actually should have said 100% of women.

 

[realibrad]

How many lives have been "ruined" by false accusations, do you reckon?

The perfect number of ruined lives should be equal to the perfect number of people raped, 0. I see no benefit in reducing either of those numbers by your default position.

 

[jackstar7]

The perfect number of ruined lives should be equal to the perfect number of people raped, 0. I see no benefit in reducing either of those numbers by your default position.

As the kids say: wut?

 

[realibrad]

As the kids say: wut?

That is not hard to understand. I won't try to, because, I believe your goal is to get me to try to explain it so you can accuse me of quibbling.

 

[jackstar7]

That is not hard to understand. I won't try to, because, I believe your goal is to get me to try to explain it so you can accuse me of quibbling.

That's a fun guess, but I straight could not parse your sentences into cohesive thoughts.

 

[Younigue]

How many lives have been "ruined" by false accusations, do you reckon?

Good question.

 

[Younigue]

That's a fun guess, but I straight could not parse your sentences into cohesive thoughts.

He was just reiterating that your approach to dealing with this issue isn't the solution and that no abuse of anyone is more valuable than specifically being focused on going after equality for women and stopping the abuse of women. Is that accurate @realibrad ?

 

[realibrad]

He was just reiterating that your approach to dealing with this issue isn't the solution and that no abuse of anyone is more valuable than specifically being focused on going after equality for women and stopping the abuse of women. Is that accurate @realibrad ?

I believe it is. Help everyone you can while not making more victims.

His position seem to be to turn the table. I think yours and mine is to help everyone and to not just pass the burden.

Victims have a hard enough time dealing. Having to deal and take on defending yourself for an investigation is even harder. I get the desire to not make the victims suffer even more. But, I also think it's wrong to put the alleged attacker through hell as that is massively damaging.

When you are a victim of assault, it changes you. When you are a young male and start growing up, people treat you different around kids. You very much feel guilty for things that you have not done.

Once one parent is concerned, that parent talks and spreads that warning around. Not many have the perspective on both sides. It will be something that you will be stuck with forever.

So, as I said, I see no point in making more victims until there is proof.

I think any reasonable person can understand what I have said here.

 

[Younigue]

I believe it is. Help everyone you can while not making more victims.

His position seem to be to turn the table. I think yours and mine is to help everyone and to not just pass the burden.

Victims have a hard enough time dealing. Having to deal and take on defending yourself for an investigation is even harder. I get the desire to not make the victims suffer even more. But, I also think it's wrong to put the alleged attacker through hell as that is massively damaging.

When you are a victim of assault, it changes you. When you are a young male and start growing up, people treat you different around kids. You very much feel guilty for things that you have not done.

Once one parent is concerned, that parent talks and spreads that warning around. Not many have the perspective on both sides. It will be something that you will be stuck with forever.

So, as I said, I see no point in making more victims until there is proof.

I think any reasonable person can understand what I have said here.

I've seen no evidence that jack intends to make more victims by your definition of victim. All he's asking for is accountability.

That being said you can not dictate to people the satisfaction they get when an abuser is made to suffer the consequences of their actions. I'm guilty of it but I use the word guilty loosely. I don't feel an ounce of guilt at my satisfaction when someone is destroyed by their own hand brad, their own hand. If victims or victim champions help to hasten it by legal means that changes nothing about the initial incident caused by the predator. If the predator has their own predator to contend with psychologically or hopefully legally then that is what they must do, not respond in kind by abusing others. Any incident begins at the onset of that incident regardless of history.

We don't live in a perfect world where all things can be confronted at all times by all people to ensure justice and that unacceptable acts be stopped in their tracks immediately.

This focus is an important one. So is stopping child abuse. They are mutually exclusive even though there are similarities.

My goal/hope and probably jacks as well is of course for people to stop being hurt.

This is Jacks passion, leave him to it. He does not have to be passionate about the things you want him to be passionate about or passionate in the way that you are passionate.

 

[realibrad]

I've seen no evidence that jack intends to make more victims by your definition of victim. All he's asking for is accountability.

That being said you can not dictate to people the satisfaction they get when an abuser is made to suffer the consequences of their actions. I'm guilty of it but I use the word guilty loosely. I don't feel an ounce of guilt at my satisfaction when someone is destroyed by their own hand brad, their own hand. If victims or victim champions help to hasten it by legal means that changes nothing about the initial incident caused by the predator. If the predator has their own predator to contend with psychologically or hopefully legally then that is what they must do, not respond in kind by abusing others. Any incident begins at the onset of that incident regardless of history.

We don't live in a perfect world where all things can be confronted at all times by all people to ensure justice and that unacceptable acts be stopped in their tracks immediately.

This focus is an important one. So is stopping child abuse. They are mutually exclusive even though there are similarities.

My goal/hope and probably jacks as well is of course for people to stop being hurt.

This is Jacks passion, leave him to it. He does not have to be passionate about the things you want him to be passionate about or passionate in the way that you are passionate.

He will create more victims by assuming people are guilty until proven innocent. When these types of things are levied upon you, its almost impossible to shake them. So when Jack and others assume this girl is telling the truth, it spreads this accusation. He fully admitted at the start of this thread that he thought this guy was guilty. When challenged as to any sort of remorse if this were not true, he said that this guy was rich so he would be okay anyway.

You will create victims by assuming that the allegations are true.

Its incredibly hard to build meaningful relationships when people assume you are a rapist. Better safe than sorry is typically the stance, and that is a shit way to go through life. It turns that person into a victim when they cant disprove something that did not happen.

 

[Younigue]

He will create more victims by assuming people are guilty until proven innocent. When these types of things are levied upon you, its almost impossible to shake them. So when Jack and others assume this girl is telling the truth, it spreads this accusation. He fully admitted at the start of this thread that he thought this guy was guilty. When challenged as to any sort of remorse if this were not true, he said that this guy was rich so he would be okay anyway.

You will create victims by assuming that the allegations are true.

Its incredibly hard to build meaningful relationships when people assume you are a rapist. Better safe than sorry is typically the stance, and that is a shit way to go through life. It turns that person into a victim when they cant disprove something that did not happen.

No no, I knew what you meant. He doesn't see it that way. He sees it as perpetrators/predators getting what they deserve and hopefully there will be very few innocents pulled down in the process. Come on brad, you're trying to make him out to be an unreasonable, uncaring person in the midst of him being decent and caring. That's not a debate you need to pursue.

 

[Younigue]

He will create more victims by assuming people are guilty until proven innocent. When these types of things are levied upon you, its almost impossible to shake them. So when Jack and others assume this girl is telling the truth, it spreads this accusation. He fully admitted at the start of this thread that he thought this guy was guilty. When challenged as to any sort of remorse if this were not true, he said that this guy was rich so he would be okay anyway.

You will create victims by assuming that the allegations are true.

Its incredibly hard to build meaningful relationships when people assume you are a rapist. Better safe than sorry is typically the stance, and that is a shit way to go through life. It turns that person into a victim when they cant disprove something that did not happen.

The onus is still on that person to be a decent human being even in the face of their trials. I'm not saying it doesn't suck for them, it does and it's not fair but it's still on them to make healthy, harmless/non violent and legal choices. Again, not easy but absolutely required.

 

[realibrad]

No no, I knew what you meant. He doesn't see it that way. He sees it as perpetrators/predators getting what they deserve and hopefully there will be very few innocents pulled down in the process. Come on brad, you're trying to make him out to be an unreasonable, uncaring person in the midst of him being decent and caring. That's not a debate you need to pursue.

Unreasonable yes, uncaring no. I do not doubt he is taking the stance out of a misguided sense that believing the accuser is more compassionate.

That is a false premise in my opinion. I think all 3 of us agree that historically society has been shitty to assault victims. As I said, he wants to simply reverse the equation while I advocate for a way where both sides get a fair assessment.

 

[realibrad]

The onus is still on that person to be a decent human being even in the face of their trials. I'm not saying it doesn't suck for them, it does and it's not fair but it's still on them to make healthy, harmless/non violent and legal choices. Again, not easy but absolutely required.

Yes, but the harm comes from people like jack assuming the alleged victim is telling the truth and then wanting a punishment from that accusation.

Earlier in this thread he says that. Go to post 27 in this thread. Someone pointed out that the accusation is not proof of doing what has been alleged. The person says innocent until proven guilty. Jack's response...


"Whatever will he do with his millions of dollars..."

That type of acceptance will lead to a lot of false accusations being accepted.

 

[Younigue]

Unreasonable yes, uncaring no. I do not doubt he is taking the stance out of a misguided sense that believing the accuser is more compassionate.

That is a false premise in my opinion. I think all 3 of us agree that historically society has been shitty to assault victims. As I said, he wants to simply reverse the equation while I advocate for a way where both sides get a fair assessment.

by calling it unreasonable you are being condescending.

 

[Younigue]

Yes, but the harm comes from people like jack assuming the alleged victim is telling the truth and then wanting a punishment from that accusation.

Earlier in this thread he says that. Go to post 27 in this thread. Someone pointed out that the accusation is not proof of doing what has been alleged. The person says innocent until proven guilty. Jack's response...


"Whatever will he do with his millions of dollars..."

That type of acceptance will lead to a lot of false accusations being accepted.

Seems to me he was being flippant. He doesn't truly want innocent people to suffer.

 

[realibrad]

by calling it unreasonable you are being condescending.

By telling anyone they are wrong you are being condescending. When you hold a position that the other does not hold, and think they are wrong, you are casting judgement.