Guess where my first patient is coming from tomorrow?

[CycloWizard]

PLEASE stop using that same BS answer everybody uses. Well they took in 10mill. and profit was only 1mill they are pretty lean...

Sorry but that is BS. I worked in 2 differant Pharm companies and trust me their overhead was not lean at all. The last place I worked they had free soda drinks, breakfast on friday, specility coffees, etc... and that was for the regular bottom people. Yea their profit margin was around average but once you cut out the padding the top people and the little that trickled down the "profit" was MUCH larger. Let alone all that was spent to "talk" with doctors and those that made spending decisions. Of course those had to happen in FL resort, Vegas, etc...

When I went to work for the Fed Gov man now that was day and night. Older computers, no real fridge at my first office, toaster was brought in, no parking, etc... I learned real fast what a lean operation was compared to Pharm companies.

And which one had a bigger budget - the private company or the federal government? I'll give you two guesses.

 

[Vette73]

And which one had a bigger budget - the private company or the federal government? I'll give you two guesses.

And which one has more people, jobs, locations, etc...

I am comparing 1 to 1. You are trying to comprae 1000 to 1.

 

[Throckmorton]

When I went to work for the Fed Gov man now that was day and night. Older computers, no real fridge at my first office, toaster was brought in, no parking, etc... I learned real fast what a lean operation was compared to Pharm companies.

In Yellowstone we had to contribute cash for coffee!

 

[CycloWizard]

And which one has more people, jobs, locations, etc...

I am comparing 1 to 1. You are trying to comprae 1000 to 1.

You are making no such comparison. You are attempting to compare some nebulous, undefined part of a multi-trillion-dollar organization to a distinct, private entity. You are delusional enough to suggest that the private company is less efficient with its money than the federal government based on superficial indicators. Simply because a government lab has crappy, outdated equipment does not mean that their budget is any less than the nice, well-equipped private lab.

 

[nick1985]

kill him

 

[Vette73]

They have a monopoly on the current generation of pacemakers because theirs is better than the competition's. They did not invent the pacemaker - they substantially improved it and made it cheaper to the point where it was difficult to compete with them. There is no reason (except lack of technical expertise) someone else couldn't come along and develop a better one. Hospitals will use whichever device is FDA approved and gives their patients the highest quality of life. If they don't, their patients will go to a different hospital. Amazing how all of these things work themselves out, yet those ignorant of how medical device R&D works want the government to do something!!!1!

Then why are they using Medtronic? Medtronic had major issues with their pacemakers in 07 and now, 2009, they are having issues with the wires falling off the pacemakers.

"Last week Medtronic said it had received a warning letter from the Food and Drug Administration about quality control problems at the Minnesota headquarters of its heart-pacing device unit."

Could not be Medtronic has a great sales staff or pays for trips and "training". Naaa has to be their great product.

 

[CycloWizard]

Then why are they using Medtronic? Medtronic had major issues with their pacemakers in 07 and now, 2009, they are having issues with the wires falling off the pacemakers.

"Last week Medtronic said it had received a warning letter from the Food and Drug Administration about quality control problems at the Minnesota headquarters of its heart-pacing device unit."

Could not be Medtronic has a great sales staff or pays for trips and "training". Naaa has to be their great product.

So you think hospitals are willing to risk litigation to send a few administrators skiing? Maybe you should look in to Medtronic's biggest competitor and see why they currently control the market. I'll even do the homework for you and give you the list of the major players in the field (from this link: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/104805.php):

"Major players profiled in the report include Biotronik GmbH, Boston Scientific Corporation, Medtronic, Sorin Group, St. Jude Medical, and Zoll Medical Corporation."

Maybe you'll find out that *gasp* Medtronic doesn't even have a monopoly! But I doubt it, because that would be devastating to your case.

 

[daishi5]

PLEASE stop using that same BS answer everybody uses. Well they took in 10mill. and profit was only 1mill they are pretty lean...

Sorry but that is BS. I worked in 2 differant Pharm companies and trust me their overhead was not lean at all. The last place I worked they had free soda drinks, breakfast on friday, specility coffees, etc... and that was for the regular bottom people. Yea their profit margin was around average but once you cut out the padding the top people and the little that trickled down the "profit" was MUCH larger. Let alone all that was spent to "talk" with doctors and those that made spending decisions. Of course those had to happen in FL resort, Vegas, etc...

When I went to work for the Fed Gov man now that was day and night. Older computers, no real fridge at my first office, toaster was brought in, no parking, etc... I learned real fast what a lean operation was compared to Pharm companies.

I am sorry, I went and looked up the information they provided to the SEC, I figured since we were talking about how much profit they made that actual facts might be good. I even said that I thought they seemed high did you miss that word? I thought they might have made too much money. But, you being the zealot you are won't listen to someone and hear what they have to say, you just go into attack mode.

Of course, the rest of your argument seems to be healthcare is overpriced in part because workers are treated too nicely? Really? Those evil healthcare corporations are too nice, and give their employees too many perks?

 

[Vette73]

So you think hospitals are willing to risk litigation to send a few administrators skiing? Maybe you should look in to Medtronic's biggest competitor and see why they currently control the market. I'll even do the homework for you and give you the list of the major players in the field (from this link: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/104805.php):

"Major players profiled in the report include Biotronik GmbH, Boston Scientific Corporation, Medtronic, Sorin Group, St. Jude Medical, and Zoll Medical Corporation."

Maybe you'll find out that *gasp* Medtronic doesn't even have a monopoly! But I doubt it, because that would be devastating to your case.

Your link is fail...

"Article / File Not Found"

And where did I say they have a monopoly? You said they are the "highest quality of life", not I.

 

[nobodyknows]

Do you personally believe that a company would bother to develop such a product subject to the whims of what you consider a "reasonable" profit? Hell no. Profit is the incentive which drives innovation. You want to take that away, but somehow keep innovation going. Good luck with that.

Profit is merely one factor that drives innovation. Necessity is the mother of invention and discontent is the father of progress.

 

[CycloWizard]

Your link is fail...

"Article / File Not Found"

Really? You can't figure out how to fix the link? Here it is again:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/104805.php

And where did I say they have a monopoly? You said they are the "highest quality of life", not I.

I never said Medtronic's pacemakers give the highest quality of life. I simply said that that is the decision criterion which most hospitals/surgeons would use when selecting a pacemaker. You disagreed, so now it's time to put up or shut up.

 

[nonlnear]

Profit is merely one factor that drives innovation. Necessity is the mother of invention

Necessity is NOT the mother of invention. Necessity is the mother of slavery and complacence, if anything. It is the willingness to reject the norms of necessity that is the mother of invention - if one really wants to hammer a bit of truth into that tired idiom.

and discontent is the father of progress.

Now that's a much more accurate statement. It's too bad that the necessity line is so often quoted.

 

[Vette73]

Really? You can't figure out how to fix the link? Here it is again:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/104805.php

I never said Medtronic's pacemakers give the highest quality of life. I simply said that that is the decision criterion which most hospitals/surgeons would use when selecting a pacemaker. You disagreed, so now it's time to put up or shut up.

Yea you did. Someone pointed out that they are over priced and YOU said...

"Hospitals will use whichever device is FDA approved and gives their patients the highest quality of life."

So you now agree that Medtronic is over priced and not "the highest quality of life" device you made it out to be before?

 

[CycloWizard]

Yea you did. Someone pointed out that they are over priced and YOU said...

"Hospitals will use whichever device is FDA approved and gives their patients the highest quality of life."

So you now agree that Medtronic is over priced and not "the highest quality of life" device you made it out to be before?

No, I don't agree. The quoted statement was not in response to anyone saying that the Medtronic pacemaker is overpriced, either - you just took it out of context. It was a response to cyclohexane's statement, "All the doctors and hospitals have been using their devices and have the incentives to keep using them (even if they cost more, at least they know that it works)." So address my points or stop posting.

 

[Vette73]

No, I don't agree. The quoted statement was not in response to anyone saying that the Medtronic pacemaker is overpriced, either - you just took it out of context. It was a response to cyclohexane's statement, "All the doctors and hospitals have been using their devices and have the incentives to keep using them (even if they cost more, at least they know that it works)." So address my points or stop posting.

cyclohexane: The company that makes these pacemakers (Medtronic) basically has a monopoly... even if they cost more

YOU: Hospitals will use whichever device is FDA approved and gives their patients the highest quality of life.

He pointed out they "cost more" and only get used due to incentives. You said no, its "highest quality of life".

Nice try to spin.

 

[HumblePie]

Going to play devil's advocate here. While this guy is found guilty, and more than likely is, there have been cases of people being on death row that are completely innocent and recent crime investigation techniques brought in new evidence proving beyond a doubt that a person was innocent.

People in the past have been "set up" before and it still happens. This is why we still have due processes. Think of it in this way. How would it feel to YOU to be on deathrow for a crime you didn't commit, waiting for something or someone to finally prove it, and then you develop a heart condition. Would you want the state officials to laugh and say, "tough shit" to you?

Again, that was devil's advocate because it HAS happened and more often as modern forensics, DNA testing, and other tools are used to investigate crime.


Now I do agree though that the real crime in this is the whole cost of the item and procedure in the first place. I'm sorry, but pacemakers did NOT cost billions of dollars to research. They are relatively "easy" tech that is not much harder to make than your average wrist watch. They never have been. Damn things have a material cost of pennies I bet. Hell, the CPU processor in your desktop that you are using to read this very post had more research and developmental costs than a pacemaker. Not only that, it does cost more to produce but is much cheaper. Seriously $50K is retarded for all that. It's not like the installation of it is a complicated procedure either and never has been. It's done around the world with high rates of success just about anywhere AND for much cheaper than $50K. Anyone else not see the "fail" in that?

 

[Vette73]

Going to play devil's advocate here. While this guy is found guilty, and more than likely is, there have been cases of people being on death row that are completely innocent and recent crime investigation techniques brought in new evidence proving beyond a doubt that a person was innocent.

People in the past have been "set up" before and it still happens. This is why we still have due processes. Think of it in this way. How would it feel to YOU to be on deathrow for a crime you didn't commit, waiting for something or someone to finally prove it, and then you develop a heart condition. Would you want the state officials to laugh and say, "tough shit" to you?

Again, that was devil's advocate because it HAS happened and more often as modern forensics, DNA testing, and other tools are used to investigate crime.


Now I do agree though that the real crime in this is the whole cost of the item and procedure in the first place. I'm sorry, but pacemakers did NOT cost billions of dollars to research. They are relatively "easy" tech that is not much harder to make than your average wrist watch. They never have been. Damn things have a material cost of pennies I bet. Hell, the CPU processor in your desktop that you are using to read this very post had more research and developmental costs than a pacemaker. Not only that, it does cost more to produce but is much cheaper. Seriously $50K is retarded for all that. It's not like the installation of it is a complicated procedure either and never has been. It's done around the world with high rates of success just about anywhere AND for much cheaper than $50K. Anyone else not see the "fail" in that?

Thats why I posted links to cost in other places. The profit margin from a Pacemaker surgery, and parts, is so high that there are several sites setup just to get people to come. Cash only of course. :awe:

That and I only did a genric google search and my 2 links were the first page.

Oh and for those that think Pacemakers need billions. Just read even the wiki page and you can see how basic the pacemaker is. Biggest problem was the battery, not the pacemaker itself...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_pacemaker

 

[CycloWizard]

cyclohexane: The company that makes these pacemakers (Medtronic) basically has a monopoly... even if they cost more

YOU: Hospitals will use whichever device is FDA approved and gives their patients the highest quality of life.

He pointed out they "cost more" and only get used due to incentives. You said no, its "highest quality of life".

Nice try to spin.

Ignorant speculation != "pointed out." I can say that you have six eyes, but that doesn't make it true. He CLAIMED that something was true, which I have since demonstrated was false. Obviously you still haven't figured out how to click on that link I gave you, or you'd realize that you're simply making an ass of yourself at this point. But, by all means, continue your parade of ignorance.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I personally believe a FULL cost breakdown of the actual cost to the manufacturer, should be REQUIRED to be made publicly available for ALL prescription drugs / medical devices. Broken out by "manufacturing costs" / "r&d amort" / "legal costs" / "taxes" / etc..

I'm fine with them making a REASONABLE profit. I'm fine with them passing on costs to customers. I'm NOT fine with making OBSCENE profit while passing all costs to customers. Let's open the books and see what's really going on.

If you want to, fine. I only wish you were so particular with health care legislation.

 

[Vette73]

Ignorant speculation != "pointed out." I can say that you have six eyes, but that doesn't make it true. He CLAIMED that something was true, which I have since demonstrated was false. Obviously you still haven't figured out how to click on that link I gave you, or you'd realize that you're simply making an ass of yourself at this point. But, by all means, continue your parade of ignorance.

Where did you proove it false? Your link just says there are others that make them. In fact that just adds weight that marketing and "training" resorts by Pharm and Medical supply companies do work.

I provided a link showing that the one YOU were defending as the "highest quality of life" has FDA all over them right now and lawsuits.

Any more spin? As all your BS has been quoted so keep trying.

 

[CycloWizard]

Thats why I posted links to cost in other places. The profit margin from a Pacemaker surgery, and parts, is so high that there are several sites setup just to get people to come. Cash only of course. :awe:

That and I only did a genric google search and my 2 links were the first page.

Oh and for those that think Pacemakers need billions. Just read even the wiki page and you can see how basic the pacemaker is. Biggest problem was the battery, not the pacemaker itself...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_pacemaker

Hate to beat a dead horse here, but if it is so simple, why don't you make one yourself? It's a cash cow just waiting to be tapped, right?

 

[Amused]

Thats why I posted links to cost in other places. The profit margin from a Pacemaker surgery, and parts, is so high that there are several sites setup just to get people to come. Cash only of course. :awe:

That and I only did a genric google search and my 2 links were the first page.

Oh and for those that think Pacemakers need billions. Just read even the wiki page and you can see how basic the pacemaker is. Biggest problem was the battery, not the pacemaker itself...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_pacemaker

If your processor fails, do you die? If it fails, do you have a multi-million dollar lawsuit or better yet, if a batch is faulty do you have a multi-billion class action suit?

The cost of a pacemaker has nothing to do with production costs, and little to do with R&D. Most of it is to cover the immense cost of covering their ass from the inevitable lawsuits that stem from inevitable failures.

 

[Vette73]

Hate to beat a dead horse here, but if it is so simple, why don't you make one yourself? It's a cash cow just waiting to be tapped, right?

So in other words you can't back up anything you said and are resorting to the troll answer of "nanana do it yourself mr smarty pants".

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Vette73]

If your processor fails, do you die? If it fails, do you have a multi-million dollar lawsuit or better yet, if a batch is faulty do you have a multi-billion class action suit?

The cost of a pacemaker has nothing to do with production costs, and little to do with R&D. Most of it is to cover the immense cost of covering their ass from the inevitable lawsuits that stem from inevitable failures.

Really. Show me where pacemaker corps have spent "immense cost" defending lawsuits because of normal wear and tear, or "inevitable failures" as you put it.

 

[CycloWizard]

So in other words you can't back up anything you said and are resorting to the troll answer of "nanana do it yourself mr smarty pants".

Thanks for proving my point.

I already posted a link proving you wrong. You ignored it. I then refuted your points using pure logic. You failed to recognize this. I suppose it's easier, then, to claim that I failed to make my point, but I'm fairly certain you're only fooling yourself with this one.